Rule #1 for beginners.

[Badger]

I just noticed that with the mast all the way back, my back foot is directly over the leading edge of the mast. That is where the board lifted with the most control and I was able to get some nice long flights and gentle touchdowns. If I moved my stance forward at all, the board would not lift. Moving slightly back on the board made the lift-off less predictable.

When I began the session, I had the mast more or less centered in the tracks. My back foot needed to be over the trailing edge of the mast to get the board to lift, and when it did, the flight was very difficult to control and always ended in a crash. I had been making some slow progress with it there. I'm sure I would have eventually gotten the hang of it, but it was like learning to ride a bucking bronco. Having the mast all the way back is like a pony ride in comparison. At least that is what I have experienced with the 125 liter Naish S26.

I'm sure all the various board brands, foils, and mast lengths will react differently to having the mast all the way back but I think the rear position is a good place to start experimenting for anyone just starting out.

Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.

[burchas]

Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.

Rule #1 for beginners is practice, practice, practice! Unless your lake is an Ice rink... Face plants in the winter don't hurt so much because your face are numb

[Badger]

Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.

Rule #1 for beginners is practice, practice, practice! Unless your lake is an Ice rink... Face plants in the winter don't hurt so much because your face are numb

I should not have used Rule #1 for the title of my post. There are many rules and they don't necessarily go in order.

A friend of mine actually wings on his ice skates and I'm in the process of making some ice blades for my longboard skateboard. Some people wing with skis.

Back in the 80's I had a board with skis that I used with my windsurf rig. I also had one with blades for ice. I wish I had kept them.

[JohnnyTsunami]

I'll just say folks should experiment.

I got advice to put the foil all the way forward. It turns out to balance my front foot would have been almost off the deck pad. (Slingshot 84cm and fone 5'11 105l)

One session the foil got loose and slid to the back of the tracks without me realizing it. I had my first sustained flights. Got out of the water and saw the loose base plate and it was immediately obvious what my problem had been and why I always felt like I was balancing on one foot!

Since then I find the rear foot is a bit of an afterthought and it's really the front foot that is critical. My rear moves around slogging and pumping even when on foil but the front foot never moves. If I could go back I'd tell myself to pay more attention to the front foot.

[Badger]

Back when I started foiling, I used the Blue Planet/KDmaui method which put my mast nearly all the way forward. That got me nowhere. The board would pop a wheelie every time and then come slapping down. I tried it there for a few sessions, then moved it to the center. That helped a lot and I started getting some short flights so I left it there.

After watching the video the other day, I moved the mast back a half-inch from the center. I noticed an improvement but the board still wasn't lifting off like in the video so I moved it all the way back and voila, I was flying.

[spindrift]

It seems that it is a question of which way you want to default. Do you want the default to be lifting up, mast forward; or do you want the default to be down, mast back. Of course the size of board, foil, wing, and rider will come into play. Reductionist? Yup.

[Badger]

When I had the mast in the middle, I had to really concentrate on keeping the board down with my front foot which wasn't easy.

With the mast back, the pressure from my front foot was much lighter and I didn't have to fight the board as much to keep it on a level flight.

I have no intention of leaving the mast all the way back for very long. It will only be there until I get used to flying the foil. At that point, I will start moving the mast forward in one-inch increments, each time getting familiar with how it rides while I casually progress to the perfect mast setting for my style of riding and level of ability wherever that may be.

[Hdip]

I know of guys who slam the mast forward and guys who slam the mast back. No matter the board. It's all personal preference. Find the spot that works for you on your board.

Saying further back is less lift is true. The foil won't jump up out of the water as fast.

https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning

There's an article on it. The balance trick is only a starting point.

[Badger]

I know of guys who slam the mast forward and guys who slam the mast back. No matter the board. It's all personal preference. Find the spot that works for you on your board.

Saying further back is less lift is true. The foil won't jump up out of the water as fast.

https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning

There's an article on it. The balance trick is only a starting point.

Kane's article is aimed at people who know how to foil, not novices. People who have never foiled have no personal preference.

The KDmaui balance point is a great starting point for dialing in your foil once you are capable of foiling but it's not a good mast location for beginners who have never foiled. I tried it. As soon as I know how to foil, the balance point is exactly where I will start the dialing-in process.

At the very least, it's plausible that the balance point would make learning more difficult on higher volume boards. Boards less than 90 liters will likely balance differently.

[Hdip]

My point with the article is kind of he doesn't say the balance point thing anymore. He says if you're blowing out of the water move the mast back.

[Dontsink]

My point with the article is kind of he doesn't say the balance point thing anymore. He says if you're blowing out of the water move the mast back.

That article was written before his interview with Robert at Blueplanet, when Robert added the blog post with the pic.

It is very short and not very clear, he goes directly into fine tuning the mast positioning depending on what you feel in turns as the foil loads.
This one has a lot more detail:
https://www.foilfeed.net/forums/topic/foil-placement/
The turn tuning is IMHO meant for more advanced riders because beginner or intermediate wingers are not going to get any increased load in a typical wide,flattish turn.
I think that is why Robert blogged the basic method after the interview.My advice is to use that until you are cranking turns.

To sum up my thoughts on this:

-A poor setup might compensate for poor technique.Ok,if it works it works ...but i think it is better to improve the technique until the optimal setup does work.Gradually ,if needed.
If your (balanced) foil is bucking like a bronco on takeoff i would say your feet are too far back relative to the foils front wing.Move them forward until it feels controlled.
All this well meant advice to place feet over the mast,feet over the back footstrap etc...is a bit hit or miss.
Different foil,different board,different mast position will change all those references.
Your balance and therefore your golden reference  point is the front wing (1/3 to 1/2 of the chord from the leading edge to be more exact).

-A balanced foil position is not for advanced riders,it is good for everybody.It is even more important on longer,bigger beginner boards because they have lots of inertia.
It is not harder to ride,just different and overall way better.

-Your foil creates more lift with more speed,more angle of attack or both.That's it.
Moving the foil on the mast track  does not change lift, it just moves the balance point forward or back.

[Badger]

Moving the foil on the mast track does not change lift, it just moves the balance point forward or back.

One thing that makes this new sport so confusing when talking about it is that the English language doesn't have the proper words to describe it.

We have foil wings and we have wind wings.

We have the KD balance point on the board which is stationary and the balance point of the rider which moves depending on the mast location. The mast track can only change lift if your feet remain stationary as they would be in foot straps.

I get plenty of lift from the foil with the mast all the way back, but it's a much more controlled lift than if it were more forward. I'm only suggesting this for those who are having trouble lifting off and sustaining flight. Those who are capable of sustained flight would want the mast to be more forward closer to the balance point of the board.

The purpose of starting off with the mast all the way back is that it will significantly speed up the learning process. If your personal preference is to spend weeks or months of frustration crashing and possibly getting injured then by all means start with the mast closer to the balance point of the board.

[jondrums]

the point people are trying to make is that you could just move your foot position forward an inch and have the same effect.  It isn't some kind of magic advice for everyone.  Clearly it worked for you and that's great.  It might work for other people too.  But so will lots of other things.

[Beasho]

I have been foiling nearly 5 years.  1,000's of waves short period, long period.  Fast slow . . . .

I have always had a Tuttle Box so NO option to move the mast.  And I DO NOT BELIEVE to each his own.  If we go down that path nothing will ever improve. 

When I was learning I worked to NEVER let the board fly.  HEAVY front foot (no straps) and get comfortable taking off on the wave given the shape of the board and foil dynamics.  Then slowly 10 to 20++ sessions in you can just start lifting the nose.  We also all learned on 8 foot boards.

When I foil in bigger waves meaning 10 feet or more I use a 7' 4" SUP.  Naturally this has WAY more board out the front than my 6 foot or 6' 6" SUP Foil boards.  The extra nose, swing weight, adds STABILITY.  That stability is the OPPOSITE of maneuverability.  The extra nose helps to hold everything together at much higher speeds and in dicey conditions.  In the bigger waves I am reverting back to being a beginner and I do NOT want maneuverability.  Give it 50 or 100 sessions before you try to balance out the board and get the maneuverability back. 

The good news is that you can control more of it with the tracks.  Enjoy the glide.

PS: The Youtube Foil Heroes Foil all the time.  I remember asking Sam Pa'e how often he foiled he said "In the summer time 3 to 4 times per week, in the winter ALL THE TIME."  I said "You mean like 5X per week?"  He said "No ALL THE TIME." 

[Badger]

the point people are trying to make is that you could just move your foot position forward an inch and have the same effect. 

I don't believe that at all.

For an experienced foiler maybe, but not for a novice.

For someone who has never foiled, the window for attaining an easy and gentle lift-off is significantly wider and safer with the mast all the way back in the tracks and I would be willing to bet that this is at least true for most if not all modern wing foil boards over 5'6 and/or over 90 liters. There is nothing special about my board that makes it foil the way it does. The further forward the mast is, the smaller that window becomes. Your feet need to be as far forward as possible, yet just far enough back to allow the board to lift off on its own with only a very gentle coaxing from the rider.