Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Badger on December 17, 2021, 03:09:48 PM
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So I'm about 15 sessions in now. Maybe 10 with perfect wind conditions. It has been a struggle but I felt like I was making progress. Up until today, my longest run on the foil was about 100 feet. Like a lot of people, I started with the mast in the middle of the tracks trying to find a balance between more lift and less lift but avoiding the extreme ends of the tracks. I searched the internet, read tons of articles, and watched dozens of videos but couldn't find much info on where the mast should be for learning so I left it there and kept on trying. That all changed after watching this video.
For all those out there like me who didn't know this, rule #1 for beginners is, move the mast all the way back! It doesn't matter what board you have. It has nothing to do with personal preference or learning style. It's just basic physics. Moving the mast all the way back slows the up and down motion of the board to make it more manageable. It also slows down the turning so the board is less likely to take off into an out-of-control turn. Every person new to the sport needs to start with the mast all the way back.
In contrast, moving the mast forward loosens up the board making it more responsive, quicker turning, and better carving but only if your level of ability is able to take advantage of it. Instead of it saying <More lift/Less lift> next to the mast track, it should have three zones Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced.
In all the videos I've watched, I have not heard any mention of this simple rule. If I had moved the mast all the way back at the beginning, I could have easily cut my learning time in half.
I tried it this morning with the mast all the way back and it was like night and day. I was instantly up and foiling all over the place. My longest run of the day was over 1000 feet. The struggle is over. All thanks to this video.
https://youtu.be/Q3xbVlOFOMQ
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I concur. The baby stepping aft worked wonders. This is the video and method I recommend.
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Dude, glad you got it!
Interesting idea on the mast position. I'd say yes, unless you aren't able to take off. I know some folks struggle with that.
Also, some of your success is likely just time. But either way, glad you got it rolling and maybe add a link to this to my beginner thread so it's there too. Hoping to gather a solid how to.
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Good for you Badger. You’re on your way.
I’d was given that advice my self and passed it on to 2 other friend following
My foot steps. It was bang on in all cases.
The other good advice one could give is, choose favorable conditions as wind speed and direction and chop size. I’ve seen the most progress with my friends riding winds speed 15-20 cross-on shore in flat to small chop.
3-4 confidence building sessions like that and the progression is on.
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Sorry but i do not really agree with this.
If it works for you keep using it but i would not call it Number1 rule .
Most people (me ,my buddies) had lots of trouble and frustration getting up on foil and very little staying up on it.
I recommend putting the foil in the "right" place per the KDmaui method from day one, and use a big foil with a big stab to learn with.And 15kt to 20kt :)
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One very important thing to take away from the video to go along with moving the mast all the way back is that you start off with your back foot over the leading edge of the front foil, then inch your way back. It seemed ridiculously far forward at first but to my surprise, I didn't have to move my foot very far back before the board started to lift almost like magic and I had significantly more control than when the mast was in the middle. All it took was board speed and foot placement. Nice and easy. No pumping was required.
While flying the foil, my back foot was ahead of where the foot strap would be. You need to have your back foot very far forward for this method to work. You also need to have the proper size foil because without the right gear you will have a tougher time with it. I weigh 175. My board is 125 liters and my front foil is 1800 sq cm. I will likely get a smaller board and foil at some point but this setup seems absolutely perfect for now.
Some boards have the words More lift/Less lift next to the mast tracks. This can be deceiving. My board has just as much lift with the mast all the way back as it would with the mast all the way forward, but moving it all the way back gives you the optimal amount of control that you need for learning. You will be up and foiling sooner with the mast all the way back than if you had it more forward. Once you become proficient with the mast all the way back, then you can start moving it forward to loosen up the board and improve the responsiveness. As you do this, you will need to adjust your feet each time to be balanced over the foil. Later on, if you decide to use foot straps, then you can fine-tune the foil placement to get More lift/Less lift.
I'm still a total beginner but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this way of learning is universal for all boards and all people. I could easily be wrong but the method makes so much sense to me that I'm completely sold on it.
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Sorry but i do not really agree with this.
If it works for you keep using it but i would not call it Number1 rule .
Most people (me ,my buddies) had lots of trouble and frustration getting up on foil and very little staying up on it.
I recommend putting the foil in the "right" place per the KDmaui method from day one, and use a big foil with a big stab to learn with.And 15kt to 20kt :)
You are right about that last part. Rule #1 should be to start with the right gear.
I'm not familiar with the KDmaui method. How do you find the "right" place to put your foil?
I wonder how your learning curve would have gone if you had started off with the foil all the way back.
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Large foil, larger wing in good winds makes it a lot easier to learn. Originally had a smaller foil 1500 and smaller wing 4.0 and could get nowhere. Went with a 2000 foil and viola, I was up on foil instantly..even with the 4m wing While it might be intimidating, try and learn in stronger winds ..everything is easier in stronger winds. I’d rather crash in strong winds than suffer because I am schlogging
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The KDmaui method is this:
https://www.blueplanetsurf.com/blogs/news/foil-board-setup-tips-board-foil-foil-placement-fo/
Gives you a very good starting position for maximum responsiveness of your foil/board combo.Then you fine tune, if needed.
I did start with the foil pretty far back Badger, after all the manufacturer had stencilled "more stable" on that end of the track...and i believed it :)
But it is not really true and i think it causes more problems than it solves.
The board's nose inertia will dampen deviations and this gives an initial feel of "easier" when foiling across the wind in small chop.
But when it does deviate (bigger chop,foiling upwind,beam reaching or carving a turn) it will be harder to correct and easier to overshoot the correction.
It gets very hard to feel the foil&water interaction because the boards inertia is oscillating up and down.
This drove me nuts in jibes in chop for example, where you have to adapt quickly to the waves you cross.
Plenty of people have posted their first experiences with small(under 50l) boards...hard to start but once up they are so much easier because of the low inertia interference.All you feel is the foil.
With a big board the KDmaui method gives you the least inertia possible.
BTW look for the Stinkbug start at the Seabreze forum, wish i had known that one too.
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The KDmaui method is this:
https://www.blueplanetsurf.com/blogs/news/foil-board-setup-tips-board-foil-foil-placement-fo/
Gives you a very good starting position for maximum responsiveness of your foil/board combo.Then you fine tune, if needed.
I did start with the foil pretty far back Badger, after all the manufacturer had stencilled "more stable" on that end of the track...and i believed it :)
But it is not really true and i think it causes more problems than it solves.
The board's nose inertia will dampen deviations and this gives an initial feel of "easier" when foiling across the wind in small chop.
But when it does deviate (bigger chop,foiling upwind,beam reaching or carving a turn) it will be harder to correct and easier to overshoot the correction.
It gets very hard to feel the foil&water interaction because the boards inertia is oscillating up and down.
This drove me nuts in jibes in chop for example, where you have to adapt quickly to the waves you cross.
Plenty of people have posted their first experiences with small(under 50l) boards...hard to start but once up they are so much easier because of the low inertia interference.All you feel is the foil.
With a big board the KDmaui method gives you the least inertia possible.
BTW look for the Stinkbug start at the Seabreze forum, wish i had known that one too.
I used the KDmaui balance method right from the beginning but I didn't know that's what it was called. Being a fairly large board and foil wing it put my mast just a bit forward of center. That's where I have had it for the last three months. It wasn't a good starting position at all and I struggled the entire time.
Having the mast all the way back is just to get you up and foiling. If you are out in "(bigger chop, foiling upwind, beam reaching or carving a turn)", you have graduated well beyond needing the mast to be so far back. That's when you would want to have it more forward.
IMO, the KDmaui method is not for beginners. It's for those who are already capable of foiling.
You should only need the mast to be all the way back for the first few sessions or until you are able to fly the foil in a straight line without crashing. Once you have mastered that, then you can move it forward to wherever it feels right for you. But first, you need to get used to just flying the foil.
The way I'm seeing it, mast placement is a progression. You start with the mast all the way back and move it forward as you progress. When you are comfortable with it all the way forward, you have reached the expert level.
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It's great that you've found something that works for you, but I don't agree with your general conclusions. For a beginner, the important part of mast position is simply that you come up on foil with your feet in a position that lets you control the foil, both for pitch and roll. You need your feet close enough together so you can shift weight forward or back without bending at the waist--so no stinkbug position. That means you need to be able to stand in a position that is reasonably stable when the board is floating on the water, and that position needs to be workable as you come up on foil.
In other words, the foil needs to be positioned so you can stand in the sweet spot while floating, and control the foil when you come up without moving your feet.
All that the KD method does is let you approximate that position by locating the center of lift over the center of mass, which is roughly equivalent to the center of buoyancy. Moving the mast to the back of the tracks means you need to move your feet back further to control the foil. If that works with your particular board, that's great, but it's certainly not rule #1, nor does it confer more stability for every board. Mast position determines foot position--that's about all.
Most folks who have been doing this more than a year or two learned on boards with Tuttle mast attachment. Back then the discussion was all about where to put your front foot, since the gospel was that your back foot needed to be directly over the mast. If you look at any of those old boards the Tuttle location is generally about fully forward on a board with tracks.
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It's great that you've found something that works for you, but I don't agree with your general conclusions. For a beginner, the important part of mast position is simply that you come up on foil with your feet in a position that lets you control the foil, both for pitch and roll. You need your feet close enough together so you can shift weight forward or back without bending at the waist--so no stinkbug position. That means you need to be able to stand in a position that is reasonably stable when the board is floating on the water, and that position needs to be workable as you come up on foil.
In other words, the foil needs to be positioned so you can stand in the sweet spot while floating, and control the foil when you come up without moving your feet.
All that the KD method does is let you approximate that position by locating the center of lift over the center of mass, which is roughly equivalent to the center of buoyancy. Moving the mast to the back of the tracks means you need to move your feet back further to control the foil. If that works with your particular board, that's great, but it's certainly not rule #1, nor does it confer more stability for every board. Mast position determines foot position--that's about all.
Most folks who have been doing this more than a year or two learned on boards with Tuttle mast attachment. Back then the discussion was all about where to put your front foot, since the gospel was that your back foot needed to be directly over the mast. If you look at any of those old boards the Tuttle location is generally about fully forward on a board with tracks.
Why then, after making so little progress with the KD method was I able to become an instant foiler with the mast back method?
I did a lot of sessions using the KD method with the mast more or less centered in the tracks. Every time the foil came up I was out of control and always ended in a crash. It took a lot of effort and concentration to go 20 or 30 feet. My record was about 100 feet.
Within an hour after moving the Mast all the way back, I foiled over 1000 feet, easily lifting off and touching down. What is it that I'm not seeing?
I'm kind of getting the impression that many of you learned to foil the hard way and now you can't picture that it might have been a little easier had you started with the mast all the way back.
You said - "Moving the mast to the back of the tracks means you need to move your feet back further to control the foil."
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No, just the opposite. With the mast at the back of the tracks, your feet need to be farther forward on the board to control the foil. My back foot is actually forward of where the rear foot strap would be. Roughly over the forwardmost foot strap screw hole.
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The KDmaui method does not put your foil in the middle of the tracks.
Depending on what foil and board you are riding it can be in the middle,all the way forward or all the way back.Recommending a mast track position as general rule is pointless, a Takuma foil on a Naish board will be very different than an Armstrong foil on a Fanatic.
As Pono says,since board weight and volume are distributed pretty much in the same proportion your "floating" feet position will work when up on foil with little or no adjustment if board& foil are balanced.It is all advantages.
But like i said, if it works for you and you have made a big leap in learning it's cool,do not make any big changes right now :)
Just telling you what i wish i had known at that stage, my main hurdle at first was getting up on the foil thing...that Gong "spaghetti leading edge" V1 wing did not help :)
Have fun!
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The KDmaui method does not put your foil in the middle of the tracks.
Depending on what foil and board you are riding it can be in the middle,all the way forward or all the way back.Recommending a mast track position as general rule is pointless, a Takuma foil on a Naish board will be very different than an Armstrong foil on a Fanatic.
As Pono says,since board weight and volume are distributed pretty much in the same proportion your "floating" feet position will work when up on foil with little or no adjustment if board& foil are balanced.It is all advantages.
But like i said, if it works for you and you have made a big leap in learning it's cool,do not make any big changes right now :)
Just telling you what i wish i had known at that stage, my main hurdle at first was getting up on the foil thing...that Gong "spaghetti leading edge" V1 wing did not help :)
Have fun!
Okay, correction. Using a level, the KD balance method puts my mast one inch back from all the way forward. I forgot that I moved it aft to the center position hoping to gain a little more control. It did help but not much.
I agree that finding this balance point is a good place to have the mast once you are capable of flying the foil but I don't believe that it's the best location for initially learning how to achieve and sustain flight.
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Hey Badger,
Just speculating here that you have to have the foil back so far to feel steady....
To me from your description it almost sounds like you are riding too much back footed. This is allowing the weight of the front of the board to help counter act that. You need to make sure your weight is almost centered if not even little front foot biased while you are learning. Yes, a little back foot weight to get the angle to get flying for a few seconds but then you need to level out and control. Shifting your hips forward. To me it a similar feeling to snowboarding.
IT is Great that you are getting longer rides now, but you need to learn to control your elevation now in beginning so it becomes like second nature later. I have used everything is in this video to teach myself and about 20 other people to foil. Granted it was behind a boat which made things easier, but the principles could still apply if you are using a wing. Just will take longer and you will be learning multiple things at once. I always tell people where to put there feet in the beginning but follow it up with they will feel pretty quickly once they start flying where to adjust there feet based on the feel. I start them on a 6'4 sup and if they progress, than to a smaller kite foil board. Only on the kite foil board do I move the foil all the way back and then progressively move it forward. On my SUP, I put it where I have it tuned.
https://vimeo.com/287989390?embedded=true&source=video_title&owner=8391844
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On the 3 bigger boards I rode i wouldn't have even got flight if MY foil /mast was all the way back. Maybe in very strong wind it could have worked but in our normal wind, no way.
On the 115 liter 6'7" Starboard I've been riding lately, I have the mast all the way forward and my front foot is still 3" behind the front strap. My 5'1" would have been ok all the way back but not the others.
I had to mod my base plate to get the mast forward enough to find the best spot.(IMO the foil boxes were to far back to begin with on those boards.
The balancing the board helped me realize that my foil had to be all the way forward with those big board.
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Glad to hear you are flying! I say keep doing whatever works until it stops working.
On my weak side I'm still heavy on my back foot and need to be forward of the mast. If I'm further back relative to the foil I struggle with control and tend to wheelie and yaw into a wipeout.
Essentially I agree with the analysis of Bill and ninja tuna.
I go into detail about control and setup in my learn to foil video course.
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nevermind
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To put some numbers up there, my foil leading edge is positioned around 50 to 55 cm (from the end of the board) on my 5,6 sup board. Kalama's new downwind 6,5 allows you to position your mast leading edge at 60cm (this is around at 30% of the total length). These are 6,5 kg boards.
In any case, for learning the best advise I have been given is to put your back foot at the end of the mast leading edge. (so 30% of the total length).
But keep in mind that I'm talking about foils that require a lot of front foot pressure. (gofoil, etc).
As you progress, moving your back foot behind the mast is a big advantage for surfing.
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With the mast all the way back on my 6'4 Naish, my foil leading edge is 70 cm from the end of the tail and the mast leading edge is 47 cm if that means anything.
One thing some of you might not be getting is that your back foot needs to be in front of the rear foot strap to achieve an easy lift-off. Feet shoulder-width apart.
Anyway, I'm going to keep practicing with it this way until I get used to flying the foil. Anyone struggling with sustained flight should at least try it. I'm still blown away by the incredible session I had.
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Whatever works to get you up on the foil is the way to go. I see my videos and my back foot is so far off to the side almost on the rail and nowhere close to where a back strap would be. That’s why I just use from foot straps.
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Whatever works to get you up on the foil is the way to go. I see my videos and my back foot is so far off to the side almost on the rail and nowhere close to where a back strap would be. That’s why I just use from foot straps.
I should have said the back foot needs to be forward of the rear footstrap "holes" since I don't use foot straps.
I see in your latest video that your back foot is over towards the rail a bit but you seem to be sailing along just fine.
I've been going with my stance slightly offset and feel fairly stable with my front toes and back heel over the centerline.
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Here are my thoughts.
#1
"Do not foil in the lineup or around anyone surfing".."ever"
#2
"Put your feet over the stringer and do not move them".
As you all know, it gets REAL UGLY when you try to save the day on a foil board moving your feet around.
**having said that, now that I know how to foil I move my feet around a bunch ( just in a smaller area)
#3
Learn how to taxi the foil board (on board) down the face to the flat, then stand up. Do not try to go down the line...
*** this changes when you learn what you are doing. I.E. I believe that you want to get to foil ASAP**
#4
Dont get caught up changing tails and front wings based on crappy sessions. Keep it simple and static. Not too many changes from session to session. ( avoid shim wormholes ).
-red
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#5 Put marks on your deckpad and look to see where your feet are before you bail. On a good ride you need to know where your feet are. Put them back there every time.
#6 if you feel like its to much nose or front foot then pull your back foot forward a bit. Possibly in front of the mast.
**all assume that you have done the balancing technique (KDMaui). Not sure how he got credit for this. We have been doing it for years with RC aircraft. It was the #1 thing to do before flight. ***KDMaui is super talented, a leader in the sport, and one of the best(IMO), its just that he did not invent that balancing technique on flying crafts. ( here I am including water Foils )
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Kdmaui was big into rc gliders.
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Kdmaui was big into rc gliders.
Yep I heard that. His tail wings are like little slope gliders.
https://dream-flight.com/products/weasel-trek (https://dream-flight.com/products/weasel-trek)
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Badger, as was said, do what works and be willing to adapt as you learn. And you said it, in the beginning every thing is 2-3 sessions.
As to why, it might be just time. If you read a lot of our beginner stories a bunch of us struggled til we had a breakthrough. For me it wasn't much about gear setup, though that did come into play. But you are lucky that you can feel things at this time. You will progress fast.
I use green painters tape (the good stuff) to mark my feet spots. 1/4" works great and it sticks to a deck pad better than you'd expect. Mark in front of your feet and it'll help you get a reference as was said. I now move my front foot back about an inch or two but the mark helped me see that. Still playing with my back foot position depending on wind speed.
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Badger, as was said, do what works and be willing to adapt as you learn. And you said it, in the beginning every thing is 2-3 sessions.
As to why, it might be just time. If you read a lot of our beginner stories a bunch of us struggled til we had a breakthrough. For me it wasn't much about gear setup, though that did come into play. But you are lucky that you can feel things at this time. You will progress fast.
I use green painters tape (the good stuff) to mark my feet spots. 1/4" works great and it sticks to a deck pad better than you'd expect. Mark in front of your feet and it'll help you get a reference as was said. I now move my front foot back about an inch or two but the mark helped me see that. Still playing with my back foot position depending on wind speed.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if I were to move the mast forward, I would be right back to the struggle, unable to fly for more than a few seconds. I need more airtime to get used to how it feels to be on foil and to get comfortable with it. Having the mast all the way back will allow me to do that. It may only take 2 or 3 sessions to get the confidence I need to move it forward.
Damn, I thought of using painter's tape but didn't think it would stay on, so I used a sharpie. At least the lines are nice and straight. Hopefully the next owner will appreciate it.
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I've been using sharpie "permanent" markers for years. Fades over time and I re apply every couple a months or so.
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=1 on the sharpie . Great way to draw a reference point. Harder if deck pad is dark
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I just noticed that with the mast all the way back, my back foot is directly over the leading edge of the mast. That is where the board lifted with the most control and I was able to get some nice long flights and gentle touchdowns. If I moved my stance forward at all, the board would not lift. Moving slightly back on the board made the lift-off less predictable.
When I began the session, I had the mast more or less centered in the tracks. My back foot needed to be over the trailing edge of the mast to get the board to lift, and when it did, the flight was very difficult to control and always ended in a crash. I had been making some slow progress with it there. I'm sure I would have eventually gotten the hang of it, but it was like learning to ride a bucking bronco. Having the mast all the way back is like a pony ride in comparison. At least that is what I have experienced with the 125 liter Naish S26.
I'm sure all the various board brands, foils, and mast lengths will react differently to having the mast all the way back but I think the rear position is a good place to start experimenting for anyone just starting out.
Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.
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Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.
Rule #1 for beginners is practice, practice, practice! Unless your lake is an Ice rink... Face plants in the winter don't hurt so much because your face are numb :P
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Unfortunately, winter has now set in and it might be a while before I can get out again to practice. I'm hoping for a nice January thaw this year.
Rule #1 for beginners is practice, practice, practice! Unless your lake is an Ice rink... Face plants in the winter don't hurt so much because your face are numb :P
I should not have used Rule #1 for the title of my post. There are many rules and they don't necessarily go in order.
A friend of mine actually wings on his ice skates and I'm in the process of making some ice blades for my longboard skateboard. Some people wing with skis.
Back in the 80's I had a board with skis that I used with my windsurf rig. I also had one with blades for ice. I wish I had kept them.
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I’ll just say folks should experiment.
I got advice to put the foil all the way forward. It turns out to balance my front foot would have been almost off the deck pad. (Slingshot 84cm and fone 5’11 105l)
One session the foil got loose and slid to the back of the tracks without me realizing it. I had my first sustained flights. Got out of the water and saw the loose base plate and it was immediately obvious what my problem had been and why I always felt like I was balancing on one foot!
Since then I find the rear foot is a bit of an afterthought and it’s really the front foot that is critical. My rear moves around slogging and pumping even when on foil but the front foot never moves. If I could go back I’d tell myself to pay more attention to the front foot.
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Back when I started foiling, I used the Blue Planet/KDmaui method which put my mast nearly all the way forward. That got me nowhere. The board would pop a wheelie every time and then come slapping down. I tried it there for a few sessions, then moved it to the center. That helped a lot and I started getting some short flights so I left it there.
After watching the video the other day, I moved the mast back a half-inch from the center. I noticed an improvement but the board still wasn't lifting off like in the video so I moved it all the way back and voila, I was flying.
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It seems that it is a question of which way you want to default. Do you want the default to be lifting up, mast forward; or do you want the default to be down, mast back. Of course the size of board, foil, wing, and rider will come into play. Reductionist? Yup.
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When I had the mast in the middle, I had to really concentrate on keeping the board down with my front foot which wasn't easy.
With the mast back, the pressure from my front foot was much lighter and I didn't have to fight the board as much to keep it on a level flight.
I have no intention of leaving the mast all the way back for very long. It will only be there until I get used to flying the foil. At that point, I will start moving the mast forward in one-inch increments, each time getting familiar with how it rides while I casually progress to the perfect mast setting for my style of riding and level of ability wherever that may be.
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I know of guys who slam the mast forward and guys who slam the mast back. No matter the board. It's all personal preference. Find the spot that works for you on your board.
Saying further back is less lift is true. The foil won't jump up out of the water as fast.
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning
There's an article on it. The balance trick is only a starting point.
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I know of guys who slam the mast forward and guys who slam the mast back. No matter the board. It's all personal preference. Find the spot that works for you on your board.
Saying further back is less lift is true. The foil won't jump up out of the water as fast.
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning
There's an article on it. The balance trick is only a starting point.
Kane's article is aimed at people who know how to foil, not novices. People who have never foiled have no personal preference.
The KDmaui balance point is a great starting point for dialing in your foil once you are capable of foiling but it's not a good mast location for beginners who have never foiled. I tried it. As soon as I know how to foil, the balance point is exactly where I will start the dialing-in process.
At the very least, it's plausible that the balance point would make learning more difficult on higher volume boards. Boards less than 90 liters will likely balance differently.
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My point with the article is kind of he doesn’t say the balance point thing anymore. He says if you’re blowing out of the water move the mast back.
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My point with the article is kind of he doesn’t say the balance point thing anymore. He says if you’re blowing out of the water move the mast back.
That article was written before his interview with Robert at Blueplanet, when Robert added the blog post with the pic.
It is very short and not very clear, he goes directly into fine tuning the mast positioning depending on what you feel in turns as the foil loads.
This one has a lot more detail:
https://www.foilfeed.net/forums/topic/foil-placement/
The turn tuning is IMHO meant for more advanced riders because beginner or intermediate wingers are not going to get any increased load in a typical wide,flattish turn.
I think that is why Robert blogged the basic method after the interview.My advice is to use that until you are cranking turns.
To sum up my thoughts on this:
-A poor setup might compensate for poor technique.Ok,if it works it works ...but i think it is better to improve the technique until the optimal setup does work.Gradually ,if needed.
If your (balanced) foil is bucking like a bronco on takeoff i would say your feet are too far back relative to the foils front wing.Move them forward until it feels controlled.
All this well meant advice to place feet over the mast,feet over the back footstrap etc...is a bit hit or miss.
Different foil,different board,different mast position will change all those references.
Your balance and therefore your golden reference point is the front wing (1/3 to 1/2 of the chord from the leading edge to be more exact).
-A balanced foil position is not for advanced riders,it is good for everybody.It is even more important on longer,bigger beginner boards because they have lots of inertia.
It is not harder to ride,just different and overall way better.
-Your foil creates more lift with more speed,more angle of attack or both.That's it.
Moving the foil on the mast track does not change lift, it just moves the balance point forward or back.
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Moving the foil on the mast track does not change lift, it just moves the balance point forward or back.
One thing that makes this new sport so confusing when talking about it is that the English language doesn't have the proper words to describe it.
We have foil wings and we have wind wings.
We have the KD balance point on the board which is stationary and the balance point of the rider which moves depending on the mast location. The mast track can only change lift if your feet remain stationary as they would be in foot straps.
I get plenty of lift from the foil with the mast all the way back, but it's a much more controlled lift than if it were more forward. I'm only suggesting this for those who are having trouble lifting off and sustaining flight. Those who are capable of sustained flight would want the mast to be more forward closer to the balance point of the board.
The purpose of starting off with the mast all the way back is that it will significantly speed up the learning process. If your personal preference is to spend weeks or months of frustration crashing and possibly getting injured then by all means start with the mast closer to the balance point of the board.
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the point people are trying to make is that you could just move your foot position forward an inch and have the same effect. It isn't some kind of magic advice for everyone. Clearly it worked for you and that's great. It might work for other people too. But so will lots of other things.
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I have been foiling nearly 5 years. 1,000's of waves short period, long period. Fast slow . . . .
I have always had a Tuttle Box so NO option to move the mast. And I DO NOT BELIEVE to each his own. If we go down that path nothing will ever improve.
When I was learning I worked to NEVER let the board fly. HEAVY front foot (no straps) and get comfortable taking off on the wave given the shape of the board and foil dynamics. Then slowly 10 to 20++ sessions in you can just start lifting the nose. We also all learned on 8 foot boards.
When I foil in bigger waves meaning 10 feet or more I use a 7' 4" SUP. Naturally this has WAY more board out the front than my 6 foot or 6' 6" SUP Foil boards. The extra nose, swing weight, adds STABILITY. That stability is the OPPOSITE of maneuverability. The extra nose helps to hold everything together at much higher speeds and in dicey conditions. In the bigger waves I am reverting back to being a beginner and I do NOT want maneuverability. Give it 50 or 100 sessions before you try to balance out the board and get the maneuverability back.
The good news is that you can control more of it with the tracks. Enjoy the glide.
PS: The Youtube Foil Heroes Foil all the time. I remember asking Sam Pa'e how often he foiled he said "In the summer time 3 to 4 times per week, in the winter ALL THE TIME." I said "You mean like 5X per week?" He said "No ALL THE TIME."
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the point people are trying to make is that you could just move your foot position forward an inch and have the same effect.
I don't believe that at all.
For an experienced foiler maybe, but not for a novice.
For someone who has never foiled, the window for attaining an easy and gentle lift-off is significantly wider and safer with the mast all the way back in the tracks and I would be willing to bet that this is at least true for most if not all modern wing foil boards over 5'6 and/or over 90 liters. There is nothing special about my board that makes it foil the way it does. The further forward the mast is, the smaller that window becomes. Your feet need to be as far forward as possible, yet just far enough back to allow the board to lift off on its own with only a very gentle coaxing from the rider.
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3 pages of everyone telling someone they are wrong, and they just keep responding with no I'm right, you're all wrong... I love it.
badger, you're using a large foil for your weight, of course you like it back in the tracks. a lot of us learned with smaller foils, so if we kept the foils in the back of the track we'd still be stuck trying to get the board off the water. There are so many variables with different boards/foils/stabs/mast length/weight/windspeed/hand wing size that any time someone says do this or do that, you gotta realize it wont work for everyone across the board. When I started I had to have the foil in the front of the tracks, slammed to the front, and i wished I could have moved it farther forward.
Go throw a lift foil on your board and let us know where in the tracks it needs to be.
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Good post. It makes sense that the method would work best with larger foils.
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I've taught a few people to foil off the back of my boat. I start them out with my biggest board, a 5'-8" 115L wing board, and a small foil all the way back in the tracks. In a few sessions we progressively move the mast forward until it's all the way up (where I typically rode it). Then we move to smaller board but same foil. I feel like any reasonably athletic person can pick up foiling relatively quickly this way.
As others have mentioned, winging is a bit of a different animal. Ideal mast location is highly dependent on the board and foil size. As someone mentioned previously, finding a balanced stance location on a floating board (not on foil) is key to being able to slog or taxi, then finding the ideal mast position for that stance location is key to getting up on foil.
Badger, it's great that you have found what works for you. There is so much to learn in this sport and it is so exciting as you progress. I hope we can get together in northern New England for some sessions together next spring. I am headed south in mid-January to get back to warmer water!
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I believe the mast back method will help a good percentage of people who start out with entry-level gear.
Over time, some basic universal learning formulas will evolve as more people get into it and the equipment becomes more refined.
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