Need help: flatwater hard boards for long-distance racing/touring

[Area 10]

That's funny, Luc

Lake Paddler - sounds like you should demo a SIC RS 14x24.

This will be waaay faster (if you have the skills and fitness) than your 28" wide inflatable. It should be stable enough for longer trips too, as long as you aren't paddling very choppy waters or carrying very heavy loads. I have the 26" wide one because I paddle choppy seas a lot and it is as stable as some 28" race boards I've been on.

I also find the umbiquity (and graphics, and so-so fit and finish) of the blue boards a bit hard to take, and prefer the (to my eyes) sophistication of the SICs.

[Lake Paddler]

Maybe try a Sunova Flatwater.  Is stable and low drag and has a nice sunken deck.  Just make sure you do not cinch it down too tight with straps as the board uses balsa vs carbon sandwich. Personally dislike any boards that dent too easy.  A well built CS board does not compression dent like the crap Surftech half baked Pro Elite.  Have an original Bark Dom and is ridiculous how easy that board dents.  Is our least durable board by far and would not buy another because of that.  Some race boards lack durability.  Naish had problems as well.

If you can try a RS at a local retailer that might compare vs the All Star.  The SB foam handles are nice since you can re-position them for your preference.  The SIC does collect some water in the handle -> but the pro is that it does not twist at all.

The sunken Sprint 21.5 is one step more tippy than the AS23.  So if that tip is say 7/10 -> then the Sprint would be 8/10.  Def would go Sprint for just flat.  Is very low drag and does have truly exceptional glide.

But for racing 10 km in small chop with swells would stay around 23.  You should be able to pound over that with something like the All Star better than the Sprint which spears.  In big chop -> something like the AS 24.5 is def better for added stability over the extra drag.

Def try as many diff boards you can.  Then just get one and work out the bugs for your use.  Hard to go too wrong with any of the boards you are looking at.  Def get a board best for you and your skill set etc -> not what someone else blabs about here or in some review. 

Many thanks for your advice! I would've added the Sunova Flatwater Faast Pro 14'x22"/23.5" to the list if the original post was still editable. Guess I'll just write it down. Sadly I couldn't find any local retailer on their website and the nearest store with this model actually in stock appears to be > 6 h drive away. Doesn't seem easy to have a go unless I could meet somebody paddling one in the water.

[Lake Paddler]

It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it. Err on the side of caution is my advice. Falling in repeatably when only touring won't be a pleasant experience.

Thanks for the remark Bryce. I did do several (5---10) sprints on that 14'x23" AS when I had the chance. I could only agree: it felt most stable when it was fast piercing the chops. But I have to confess that I've never paddled long distances on any 23"-wide board. Maybe I should do it first.

[Lake Paddler]

  I'll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don't buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23" board won't offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.

Thank you for this interesting statement. How large/small can the difference be? Is there any test data to support this?
I'm considering 23" boards since 1) I felt comfortable enough on two 24.5" and 25" boards that I tested, and 2) I actually tried a 23" board and presume that I'd be able to do better over time.

[Lake Paddler]

That's funny, Luc

Lake Paddler - sounds like you should demo a SIC RS 14x24.

This will be waaay faster (if you have the skills and fitness) than your 28" wide inflatable. It should be stable enough for longer trips too, as long as you aren't paddling very choppy waters or carrying very heavy loads. I have the 26" wide one because I paddle choppy seas a lot and it is as stable as some 28" race boards I've been on.

I also find the umbiquity (and graphics, and so-so fit and finish) of the blue boards a bit hard to take, and prefer the (to my eyes) sophistication of the SICs.

It's definitely on the top of my to-do list! Thanks a lot for sharing your good experiences. All I need to do is to find a retailer who wouldn't bundle a test run with a basic course.
BTW, is the SIC RS 14'x24" a previous model? Now they only offer 23", 24.5" and above as width.

[warmuth]

  All things being equal, and they never are, I had two boards of the same make and model 23 and 25 and in a flat sprint for one minute the 23 averaged .15 mph faster through 8 runs. I also didn't use the 23 in about half the races I did because races are rarely flat and windless. Touring it's utterly pointless to paddle a marginally stable board unless it's for the "challenge". Racing is so utterly chaotic and unpredictable that you should  err on the side of stability. You're also 6'2 not 5'7 and coming from a 28" wide board with not much paddling experience. 23" boards, despite the new hotness of 21.5 and 22" boards are still tip of the spear equipment.

[burchas]

^Good points.

I would bet on the side of stability as well. I've raced 23 and 24 boards, once you fall once
you've lost your advantage and now there is the mental effect that will render you more
cautious for the rest of the race and will sure kill any advantage you might have had.

Narrow boards for a guy your height will be a "leg burner" after a short while. Think about
cramps.

[Stefan]

  I'll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don't buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23" board won't offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.

100% agree with this.. racing starts alone will test your balance, and it's not about just being comfortable... it's about being completely at ease so that the board width isn't sucking energy from your stroke. Fighting balance (even a small amount) uses a surprising amount of energy... if you can focus on just your stroke technique you will be significantly faster.

[ukgm]

It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it. Err on the side of caution is my advice. Falling in repeatably when only touring won't be a pleasant experience.

Thanks for the remark Bryce. I did do several (5---10) sprints on that 14'x23" AS when I had the chance. I could only agree: it felt most stable when it was fast piercing the chops. But I have to confess that I've never paddled long distances on any 23"-wide board. Maybe I should do it first.

If you can handle it over short distance, it's trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I'd recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you'll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.

[Lake Paddler]

  All things being equal, and they never are, I had two boards of the same make and model 23 and 25 and in a flat sprint for one minute the 23 averaged .15 mph faster through 8 runs. I also didn't use the 23 in about half the races I did because races are rarely flat and windless. Touring it's utterly pointless to paddle a marginally stable board unless it's for the "challenge". Racing is so utterly chaotic and unpredictable that you should  err on the side of stability. You're also 6'2 not 5'7 and coming from a 28" wide board with not much paddling experience. 23" boards, despite the new hotness of 21.5 and 22" boards are still tip of the spear equipment.

^Good points.

I would bet on the side of stability as well. I've raced 23 and 24 boards, once you fall once
you've lost your advantage and now there is the mental effect that will render you more
cautious for the rest of the race and will sure kill any advantage you might have had.

Narrow boards for a guy your height will be a "leg burner" after a short while. Think about
cramps.

  I'll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don't buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23" board won't offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.

100% agree with this.. racing starts alone will test your balance, and it's not about just being comfortable... it's about being completely at ease so that the board width isn't sucking energy from your stroke. Fighting balance (even a small amount) uses a surprising amount of energy... if you can focus on just your stroke technique you will be significantly faster.

Thank you all very much for sharing your valuable experiences. Undoubtedly I should err on the side of caution and choose a board that I would be able to handle in race conditions. It does seem necessary to paddle some long distance on a 23" wide board to see whether I can withstand the leg fatigue. Still I'd rather not underestimate my personal development over time. After all, I am merely an amateur open to challenges and don't see myself winning any race in the foreseeable future.

[Lake Paddler]

If you can handle it over short distance, it's trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I'd recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you'll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.

Which other board (that has been mentioned in this thread) can be counted as an allwater board, besides the AS?

[Area 10]

If you can handle it over short distance, it's trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I'd recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you'll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.

Which other board (that has been mentioned in this thread) can be counted as an allwater board, besides the AS?

The SIC RS is an all waters board.

Many of the ones you quoted are intended for flat water (although if you are an elite paddler you can paddle them in anything - but you aren't an elite paddlers and not are many of us!). For instance the Sprint is a flat water board. And any board that has "flat water" in its name is not an all-waters board.

Just google the board and read the manufacturers blurb about it. It will clearly state in 90% of cases whether it is a flat water board, or is intended for all waters or all-round racing.

Other particularly popular all-waters race boards are the Naish Maliko, and the Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder. There are ones from NSP and ONE too, as well as JP etc which you should look at. But since you paddle lakes, most flat water designs will suit you too. Just don't go crazy narrow. 24-26" wide is about the right step up from a 28" wide inflatable. ukgm is right that many people find stability the limiting factor on their race performance, so prefer a narrower but more stable all-waters board to a theoretically-faster-but-tipper-despite-being-wider flat water board.

[Lake Paddler]

The SIC RS is an all waters board.

Many of the ones you quoted are intended for flat water (although if you are an elite paddler you can paddle them in anything - but you aren’t an elite paddlers and not are many of us!). For instance the Sprint is a flat water board. And any board that has “flat water” in its name is not an all-waters board.

Just google the board and read the manufacturers blurb about it. It will clearly state in 90% of cases whether it is a flat water board, or is intended for all waters or all-round racing.

Other particularly popular all-waters race boards are the Naish Maliko, and the Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder. There are ones from NSP and ONE too, as well as JP etc which you should look at. But since you paddle lakes, most flat water designs will suit you too. Just don’t go crazy narrow. 24-26” wide is about the right step up from a 28” wide inflatable. ukgm is right that many people find stability the limiting factor on their race performance, so prefer a narrower but more stable all-waters board to a theoretically-faster-but-tipper-despite-being-wider flat water board.

Thanks a lot for the clarification. I wasn't sure about the SIC RS. Both Naish Maliko and Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder seem to be nice choices. I'll add them to my watch list.

I get your and Bryce's point: it's probably more reasonable for me to consider narrower boards that are designed for allwater conditions. BTW, how has the AS model changed from 2017 to 2018? Just saw at a local retailer's website an offer of a brand new 2017 AS 14'x23" Carbon Sandwich for 2490 Euro.

[Area 10]

There's a lot of info on this forum and more generally on the web about the All Star differences 2017 vs 2018. You just have to search for it.

2490 Euros for a 2017 Board doesn't seem like that much of a bargain to me. The 2019 boards will be out within a few weeks, making this a 2 yr-old design. Some people prefer the 2017 to the 2018, but a 2 yr old board should be going pretty cheap. I'd offer them no more than 2200, maybe even 2000, and see what they say. I should think they'd be very keen to offload it right now, before the new stock  arrives. The market for 23" wide boards is pretty small.

[Luc Benac]

The market for 23" wide boards is pretty small.

Yes usually there are plenty of narrow AllStar or narrow Sprint for sale close to the end of the season.
1) It seems that SB has a strong rebate program for racers so the starting price is lower and after the first weeks it starts going down
2) There are plenty of racers supported by this program
3) Most experienced amateurs have learned the lesson of buying a race competitive board for general use so the demand is often lower (this is true for any brand)