Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Lake Paddler on July 22, 2018, 01:56:14 PM
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Aloha Zoners. I've been looking for my first hard board for flatwater conditions with small chops and swells. I live inland and have paddled so far mostly on lakes with a 14'x28" inflatable. Only recently I started preparing for a 10-km race and contemplating upgrading to a hard board. For what it's worth, I'm 1.87 m (ca. 6'2") tall and weigh approx. 76 kg (ca. 168 lbs).
FYI, here is a list of hard boards that I've tried thus far in chronological order. Unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to collect any timing data.
- Starboard All Star 14'x23" (2017). Tested for less than an hour with wind gusts of 4 Bft. Felt tippy at the beginning but quickly adapted to it. Given some extra hours I might've been able to do a step-back buoy turn (tried several times but failed halfway).
- JP Flatwater Race 14'x25" (2017?). Tested for half an hour with wind gusts of 4 Bft, first 15 min upwind, last 15 min downwind. Felt more stable than the 23"-wide All Star.
- JP Flatwater Race 14'x24.5" (2016?). Tested for two hours with wind gusts up to 2 Bft. No stability issue from minute one. Suppose I could go with something narrower.
Here is a list of hard boards in alphabetical order that I'd like to try out.
- Blue Planet DO (Dug Out) Racer 14'x21"/22.5". Robert has always been an invaluable source with his Zen Waterman blog, Board Meetings (with Evan) and the like. Personally I'd also want to return the favor some day. 21" does sound a bit scary, but Robert (6'2", 195 lbs) managed to feel comfortable on it after a day's tour (https://blueplanetsurf.com/news/sup-11-city-tour-and-paddle-expo-euro-trip-report/). I suppose that I could get used to it in a few weeks' time. However I've never seen any Blue Planet board locally (in Southern Germany) and the nearest test centers are all too far away. Might not be easy to have a go.
- Light Nelo Signature Race 14'x23". Strongly represented by their team riders in local events. Shame that I haven't tried one yet. The design without an EPS core sounds appealing.
- SIC RS 14'x23". I've only read positive things about this one here. Although Reuben indicated in the SUPboarder review that the handle would store quite some water, it is possibly only a minor issue.
- Starboard Sprint 14'x21.5". I've seen people consistently stressing its stability in the forum. Not so sure whether I'd like the deep dugout though. I could imagine that it wouldn't be very comfortable when I fall in and have to climb back onto the board.
Sometimes I ask myself whether it's really worth the efforts, and whether I should just grab any board and paddle my heart out. Indeed, any hard board listed above would be a big leap from my inflatable. If you disagree, I'd like very much to have some feedback regarding, e.g.,
- any board that I should try but has not been listed above;
- your impressions about any board that would suit my needs, and, if it's not too much trouble, how it is compared to a board that I already had a go on;
- whether any two boards listed above are genuinely comparable, or whether one board would clearly better suit my needs than the other, so that I could narrow down the choices.
Never thought it would be so difficult to do test runs of boards of various brands. Possibly it has to do with the geographical location. Found a local retailer shop of SIC which insists any board rental service be bundled with a basic course at their SUP center. I may be an amateur in SUP but would rather not pay for another basic course...
Mahalo and looking forward to your replies. :)
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Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say. The SIC handle is the best on the market, hands down, and is a huge asset. The water it holds is probably no more than the sweat you’d wring out of your shirt after the race. It’s not going to make any measurable difference to your speed or board handling.
The second thing to say is that you are contemplating a huge leap in board widths. Racing alongside other people is a lot tougher than you’d think. There’s a lot of chop in the pack. You need a margin of comfort. Going down 3” or so in one go is probably quite enough, and going down 6+ inches is a huge drop. Only you can know if you’d be biting off more than you can chew for this coming race. Even some elite racers don’t choose a board as narrow as 21.5” wide for racing.
The third thing to say is that you should buy used if possible, until you know a bit more about what is best for you. If you buy wisely you will lose very little if you make a mistake.
The fourth thing to say is that all the boards you mention will get the job done.
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If you did OK on a 23 in 4 bft your first time trying it, you should be OK on a 23. But it will take a deliberate practice to get those buoy turns down. Like, you'll want to practice at least 10 buoy turns every session, even if it's choppy (especially if it's choppy).
AllStar 14x23 is a safe bet. SIC RS 14x23 is quite similar in stability and speed to the AllStar.
14x25 JP Flatwater would also be a safe bet, and possibly better for long distance and choppy water races where your legs might start to get worn out from balancing on a 14x23. Maybe a tiny bit slower than the 14x23s on pure flat water, but not a huge difference.
Anything less than 23 is going to be quite challenging when the chop comes up and when you have to do buoy turns.
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Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say. The SIC handle is the best on the market, hands down, and is a huge asset. The water it holds is probably no more than the sweat you’d wring out of your shirt after the race. It’s not going to make any measurable difference to your speed or board handling.
I've certainly tried to explain to them that board reviews should be a proper review including positive and negative thoughts (unlike most sites or mags in the industry). It might seem trivial but better that then just banner waving a brands catalog around because they are paying for advertising.
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Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say. The SIC handle is the best on the market, hands down, and is a huge asset. The water it holds is probably no more than the sweat you’d wring out of your shirt after the race. It’s not going to make any measurable difference to your speed or board handling.
I've certainly tried to explain to them that board reviews should be a proper review including positive and negative thoughts (unlike most sites or mags in the industry). It might seem trivial but better that then just banner waving a brands catalog around because they are paying for advertising.
But a deep ledge handle holds just as much water (maybe more) - it’s just that you can’t see it! So unless you are also going to criticise all the ledge handles in the world for trapping water, this is unfair and misleading.
It’s a shame because otherwise it was a good review. But people seem to be latching onto this handle thing - when in fact the superb SIC handle (that Blue Planet copied, not so well) is actually a reason to buy the board, especially if you carry your board in high winds or do races with beach starts.
If you can’t find much to criticise then just say that. Don’t squeeze out something pointless. The RS is a very well executed design. And that includes the handle. There are perhaps small things you might wish for that it hadn’t got (eg. full PVC sandwich, a prettier coloured or more comfy deck pad, maybe a tail pad etc), but it’s hard to criticise what it has got, and most of all the handle, which is a godsend. People are now quoting this as a reason not to buy an RS, which is RIDICULOUS. And it also shows how very careful you need to be when doing these so-called expert reviews.
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Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say. The SIC handle is the best on the market, hands down, and is a huge asset. The water it holds is probably no more than the sweat you’d wring out of your shirt after the race. It’s not going to make any measurable difference to your speed or board handling.
I've certainly tried to explain to them that board reviews should be a proper review including positive and negative thoughts (unlike most sites or mags in the industry). It might seem trivial but better that then just banner waving a brands catalog around because they are paying for advertising.
But a deep ledge handle holds just as much water (maybe more) - it’s just that you can’t see it! So unless you are also going to criticise all the ledge handles in the world for trapping water, this is unfair and misleading.
It’s a shame because otherwise it was a good review. But people seem to be latching onto this handle thing - when in fact the superb SIC handle (that Blue Planet copied, not so well) is actually a reason to buy the board, especially if you carry your board in high winds or do races with beach starts.
I don't disagree but this does assume that products are reviewed by customers both logically and rationally. In my experience, they aren't and end-users will only complain problems they can actually see not what actually is a fault.... The key is always to use a review as a starting point and then go try it yourself. Nobody is going to drop 3 grand on a board without doing it I hope.
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Maybe try a Sunova Flatwater. Is stable and low drag and has a nice sunken deck. Just make sure you do not cinch it down too tight with straps as the board uses balsa vs carbon sandwich. Personally dislike any boards that dent too easy. A well built CS board does not compression dent like the crap Surftech half baked Pro Elite. Have an original Bark Dom and is ridiculous how easy that board dents. Is our least durable board by far and would not buy another because of that. Some race boards lack durability. Naish had problems as well.
If you can try a RS at a local retailer that might compare vs the All Star. The SB foam handles are nice since you can re-position them for your preference. The SIC does collect some water in the handle -> but the pro is that it does not twist at all.
The sunken Sprint 21.5 is one step more tippy than the AS23. So if that tip is say 7/10 -> then the Sprint would be 8/10. Def would go Sprint for just flat. Is very low drag and does have truly exceptional glide.
But for racing 10 km in small chop with swells would stay around 23. You should be able to pound over that with something like the All Star better than the Sprint which spears. In big chop -> something like the AS 24.5 is def better for added stability over the extra drag.
Def try as many diff boards you can. Then just get one and work out the bugs for your use. Hard to go too wrong with any of the boards you are looking at. Def get a board best for you and your skill set etc -> not what someone else blabs about here or in some review. ;)
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@Area 10 Thanks very much for the detailed feedback!
Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say.
It did leave me this kind of impression, for it was only very briefly mentioned at the end of the video. Certainly I wouldn't reject the board solely for this reason. Water will flow around anyway once it gets choppy.
The second thing to say is that you are contemplating a huge leap in board widths. Racing alongside other people is a lot tougher than you’d think. There’s a lot of chop in the pack. You need a margin of comfort. Going down 3” or so in one go is probably quite enough, and going down 6+ inches is a huge drop. Only you can know if you’d be biting off more than you can chew for this coming race. Even some elite racers don’t choose a board as narrow as 21.5” wide for racing.
You're right. It would be a huge leap to go down to 21.5", and 23" does seem to be a safer choice. Back in May, I first learned paddling on a 31"-wide inflatable and then bought the 28"-wide one which I currently own. The 28" inflatable felt almost as stable as the 31"-wide one and I got a little bored after a week or two. Kept it anyway for touring with my beloved one and for friends visiting us. I think I did overestimate the learning curve a little. So, I also considered narrower boards even if they might take me weeks to get used to, especially after I'd tried boards with width in the range of 23"---25". But maybe the learning curve is much steeper in the sub-23" range, I suppose?
The third thing to say is that you should buy used if possible, until you know a bit more about what is best for you. If you buy wisely you will lose very little if you make a mistake.
Thank you for this suggestion. The second-hand market here (inland) appears however to be quite small and I've only seen demo inflatable boards being sold by sponsored test centers so far. But I'll keep looking.
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@Area 10 Thanks very much for the detailed feedback!
Ok. Well the first thing to say is the the SUPBoarder comment about water in the SIC handle is frankly just stupid. They must have been really reaching to try to find something negative to say.
It did leave me this kind of impression, for it was only very briefly mentioned at the end of the video. Certainly I wouldn't reject the board solely for this reason. Water will flow around anyway once it gets choppy.
The second thing to say is that you are contemplating a huge leap in board widths. Racing alongside other people is a lot tougher than you’d think. There’s a lot of chop in the pack. You need a margin of comfort. Going down 3” or so in one go is probably quite enough, and going down 6+ inches is a huge drop. Only you can know if you’d be biting off more than you can chew for this coming race. Even some elite racers don’t choose a board as narrow as 21.5” wide for racing.
You're right. It would be a huge leap to go down to 21.5", and 23" does seem to be a safer choice. Back in May, I first learned paddling on a 31"-wide inflatable and then bought the 28"-wide one which I currently own. The 28" inflatable felt almost as stable as the 31"-wide one and I got a little bored after a week or two. Kept it anyway for touring with my beloved one and for friends visiting us. I think I did overestimate the learning curve a little. So, I also considered narrower boards even if they might take me weeks to get used to, especially after I'd tried boards with width in the range of 23"---25". But maybe the learning curve is much steeper in the sub-23" range, I suppose?
The third thing to say is that you should buy used if possible, until you know a bit more about what is best for you. If you buy wisely you will lose very little if you make a mistake.
Thank you for this suggestion. The second-hand market here (inland) appears however to be quite small and I've only seen demo inflatable boards being sold by sponsored test centers so far. But I'll keep looking.
It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it. Err on the side of caution is my advice. Falling in repeatably when only touring won't be a pleasant experience.
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If you did OK on a 23 in 4 bft your first time trying it, you should be OK on a 23. But it will take a deliberate practice to get those buoy turns down. Like, you'll want to practice at least 10 buoy turns every session, even if it's choppy (especially if it's choppy).
Thanks a lot for the this valuable piece of advice! I'll definitely practice buoy turns alongside regular training.
AllStar 14x23 is a safe bet. SIC RS 14x23 is quite similar in stability and speed to the AllStar.
If this SIC RS model has no obvious flaw, I might prefer it over the AS. Seeing a whole lot of AS or Sprint locally makes me a little bit tired of that Tikiman. :P
14x25 JP Flatwater would also be a safe bet, and possibly better for long distance and choppy water races where your legs might start to get worn out from balancing on a 14x23. Maybe a tiny bit slower than the 14x23s on pure flat water, but not a huge difference.
You're totally right. Maybe I should try to paddle some long distance (> 10 km) on an 23"-wide AS to see whether I could possibly handle it.
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Lake,
I'm not interested in getting into a philisophical discussion about water retention in handles
But if you are looking for the ultimate 14Ft flatwater race boards Id add 2019 Fanatic STRIKE & the SUNOVA Flatwater fast
These board seem to be winning and since you are a ZONER (member) We offer significant discounts on these and all items
PM or email me
JimK
Extreme Windsurfing
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I’ll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don’t buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23” board won’t offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.
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It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it.
Words of Wisdom. There is a huge difference between zipping on a 5km paddle on a race board and going 15km on it. Usually kilometre 6 and over start to become less attractive......
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the handle. People are now quoting this as a reason not to buy an RS, which is RIDICULOUS.
I thing that this winter people that own a RS 24.5 or 26 should seriously consider selling it at a discount because of the handle and let me know (if they are close to Vancouver).
I could help them put this terrible issue right.
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LOL ;)
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That’s funny, Luc :)
Lake Paddler - sounds like you should demo a SIC RS 14x24.
This will be waaay faster (if you have the skills and fitness) than your 28” wide inflatable. It should be stable enough for longer trips too, as long as you aren’t paddling very choppy waters or carrying very heavy loads. I have the 26” wide one because I paddle choppy seas a lot and it is as stable as some 28” race boards I’ve been on.
I also find the umbiquity (and graphics, and so-so fit and finish) of the blue boards a bit hard to take, and prefer the (to my eyes) sophistication of the SICs.
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Maybe try a Sunova Flatwater. Is stable and low drag and has a nice sunken deck. Just make sure you do not cinch it down too tight with straps as the board uses balsa vs carbon sandwich. Personally dislike any boards that dent too easy. A well built CS board does not compression dent like the crap Surftech half baked Pro Elite. Have an original Bark Dom and is ridiculous how easy that board dents. Is our least durable board by far and would not buy another because of that. Some race boards lack durability. Naish had problems as well.
If you can try a RS at a local retailer that might compare vs the All Star. The SB foam handles are nice since you can re-position them for your preference. The SIC does collect some water in the handle -> but the pro is that it does not twist at all.
The sunken Sprint 21.5 is one step more tippy than the AS23. So if that tip is say 7/10 -> then the Sprint would be 8/10. Def would go Sprint for just flat. Is very low drag and does have truly exceptional glide.
But for racing 10 km in small chop with swells would stay around 23. You should be able to pound over that with something like the All Star better than the Sprint which spears. In big chop -> something like the AS 24.5 is def better for added stability over the extra drag.
Def try as many diff boards you can. Then just get one and work out the bugs for your use. Hard to go too wrong with any of the boards you are looking at. Def get a board best for you and your skill set etc -> not what someone else blabs about here or in some review. ;)
Many thanks for your advice! I would've added the Sunova Flatwater Faast Pro 14'x22"/23.5" to the list if the original post was still editable. Guess I'll just write it down. :) Sadly I couldn't find any local retailer on their website and the nearest store with this model actually in stock appears to be > 6 h drive away. Doesn't seem easy to have a go unless I could meet somebody paddling one in the water.
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It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it. Err on the side of caution is my advice. Falling in repeatably when only touring won't be a pleasant experience.
Thanks for the remark Bryce. I did do several (5---10) sprints on that 14'x23" AS when I had the chance. I could only agree: it felt most stable when it was fast piercing the chops. But I have to confess that I've never paddled long distances on any 23"-wide board. Maybe I should do it first.
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I’ll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don’t buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23” board won’t offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.
Thank you for this interesting statement. How large/small can the difference be? Is there any test data to support this?
I'm considering 23" boards since 1) I felt comfortable enough on two 24.5" and 25" boards that I tested, and 2) I actually tried a 23" board and presume that I'd be able to do better over time.
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That’s funny, Luc :)
Lake Paddler - sounds like you should demo a SIC RS 14x24.
This will be waaay faster (if you have the skills and fitness) than your 28” wide inflatable. It should be stable enough for longer trips too, as long as you aren’t paddling very choppy waters or carrying very heavy loads. I have the 26” wide one because I paddle choppy seas a lot and it is as stable as some 28” race boards I’ve been on.
I also find the umbiquity (and graphics, and so-so fit and finish) of the blue boards a bit hard to take, and prefer the (to my eyes) sophistication of the SICs.
It's definitely on the top of my to-do list! Thanks a lot for sharing your good experiences. All I need to do is to find a retailer who wouldn't bundle a test run with a basic course. ;)
BTW, is the SIC RS 14'x24" a previous model? Now they only offer 23", 24.5" and above as width.
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All things being equal, and they never are, I had two boards of the same make and model 23 and 25 and in a flat sprint for one minute the 23 averaged .15 mph faster through 8 runs. I also didn't use the 23 in about half the races I did because races are rarely flat and windless. Touring it's utterly pointless to paddle a marginally stable board unless it's for the "challenge". Racing is so utterly chaotic and unpredictable that you should err on the side of stability. You're also 6'2 not 5'7 and coming from a 28" wide board with not much paddling experience. 23" boards, despite the new hotness of 21.5 and 22" boards are still tip of the spear equipment.
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^Good points.
I would bet on the side of stability as well. I've raced 23 and 24 boards, once you fall once
you've lost your advantage and now there is the mental effect that will render you more
cautious for the rest of the race and will sure kill any advantage you might have had.
Narrow boards for a guy your height will be a "leg burner" after a short while. Think about
cramps.
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I’ll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don’t buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23” board won’t offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.
100% agree with this.. racing starts alone will test your balance, and it's not about just being comfortable... it's about being completely at ease so that the board width isn't sucking energy from your stroke. Fighting balance (even a small amount) uses a surprising amount of energy... if you can focus on just your stroke technique you will be significantly faster.
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It should be noted that a 23 width is a racing width, not a touring width. Not only will it be slightly less stable at touring speeds but you'll also be subjected to more leg fatigue due to the hours you are paddling it. Err on the side of caution is my advice. Falling in repeatably when only touring won't be a pleasant experience.
Thanks for the remark Bryce. I did do several (5---10) sprints on that 14'x23" AS when I had the chance. I could only agree: it felt most stable when it was fast piercing the chops. But I have to confess that I've never paddled long distances on any 23"-wide board. Maybe I should do it first.
If you can handle it over short distance, it’s trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I’d recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you’ll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.
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All things being equal, and they never are, I had two boards of the same make and model 23 and 25 and in a flat sprint for one minute the 23 averaged .15 mph faster through 8 runs. I also didn't use the 23 in about half the races I did because races are rarely flat and windless. Touring it's utterly pointless to paddle a marginally stable board unless it's for the "challenge". Racing is so utterly chaotic and unpredictable that you should err on the side of stability. You're also 6'2 not 5'7 and coming from a 28" wide board with not much paddling experience. 23" boards, despite the new hotness of 21.5 and 22" boards are still tip of the spear equipment.
^Good points.
I would bet on the side of stability as well. I've raced 23 and 24 boards, once you fall once
you've lost your advantage and now there is the mental effect that will render you more
cautious for the rest of the race and will sure kill any advantage you might have had.
Narrow boards for a guy your height will be a "leg burner" after a short while. Think about
cramps.
I’ll come out and be the first to actually say it. Don’t buy a 23. Start out at 25 or if you really feel you need to then get a 24. A 23” board won’t offer you anything more than a 24 or 25 will besides instability. Your racing results are going to ride entirely upon your fitness, not your board, provided said board is intended as a race board. The difference in speed between them is far less than you probably think it is.
100% agree with this.. racing starts alone will test your balance, and it's not about just being comfortable... it's about being completely at ease so that the board width isn't sucking energy from your stroke. Fighting balance (even a small amount) uses a surprising amount of energy... if you can focus on just your stroke technique you will be significantly faster.
Thank you all very much for sharing your valuable experiences. Undoubtedly I should err on the side of caution and choose a board that I would be able to handle in race conditions. It does seem necessary to paddle some long distance on a 23" wide board to see whether I can withstand the leg fatigue. Still I'd rather not underestimate my personal development over time. After all, I am merely an amateur open to challenges and don't see myself winning any race in the foreseeable future. ;)
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If you can handle it over short distance, it’s trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I’d recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you’ll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.
Which other board (that has been mentioned in this thread) can be counted as an allwater board, besides the AS?
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If you can handle it over short distance, it’s trainable over a longer ones so it might be worth giving it a go in practise first as you suggest. From my perspective, rather than worrying about width, be instead more concerned with the level of primary stability. The lack of that can hammer the legs (no matter how good the secondary is). I’d recommend a narrower allwater board that can handle anything you’ll face but with a lower width to keep some speed. Glide is going to be less relevant due to the way that the skin drag and wave drag of boards operate at lower speeds.
Which other board (that has been mentioned in this thread) can be counted as an allwater board, besides the AS?
The SIC RS is an all waters board.
Many of the ones you quoted are intended for flat water (although if you are an elite paddler you can paddle them in anything - but you aren’t an elite paddlers and not are many of us!). For instance the Sprint is a flat water board. And any board that has “flat water” in its name is not an all-waters board.
Just google the board and read the manufacturers blurb about it. It will clearly state in 90% of cases whether it is a flat water board, or is intended for all waters or all-round racing.
Other particularly popular all-waters race boards are the Naish Maliko, and the Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder. There are ones from NSP and ONE too, as well as JP etc which you should look at. But since you paddle lakes, most flat water designs will suit you too. Just don’t go crazy narrow. 24-26” wide is about the right step up from a 28” wide inflatable. ukgm is right that many people find stability the limiting factor on their race performance, so prefer a narrower but more stable all-waters board to a theoretically-faster-but-tipper-despite-being-wider flat water board.
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The SIC RS is an all waters board.
Many of the ones you quoted are intended for flat water (although if you are an elite paddler you can paddle them in anything - but you aren’t an elite paddlers and not are many of us!). For instance the Sprint is a flat water board. And any board that has “flat water” in its name is not an all-waters board.
Just google the board and read the manufacturers blurb about it. It will clearly state in 90% of cases whether it is a flat water board, or is intended for all waters or all-round racing.
Other particularly popular all-waters race boards are the Naish Maliko, and the Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder. There are ones from NSP and ONE too, as well as JP etc which you should look at. But since you paddle lakes, most flat water designs will suit you too. Just don’t go crazy narrow. 24-26” wide is about the right step up from a 28” wide inflatable. ukgm is right that many people find stability the limiting factor on their race performance, so prefer a narrower but more stable all-waters board to a theoretically-faster-but-tipper-despite-being-wider flat water board.
Thanks a lot for the clarification. I wasn't sure about the SIC RS. Both Naish Maliko and Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder seem to be nice choices. I'll add them to my watch list.
I get your and Bryce's point: it's probably more reasonable for me to consider narrower boards that are designed for allwater conditions. BTW, how has the AS model changed from 2017 to 2018? Just saw at a local retailer's website an offer of a brand new 2017 AS 14'x23" Carbon Sandwich for 2490 Euro.
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There’s a lot of info on this forum and more generally on the web about the All Star differences 2017 vs 2018. You just have to search for it.
2490 Euros for a 2017 Board doesn’t seem like that much of a bargain to me. The 2019 boards will be out within a few weeks, making this a 2 yr-old design. Some people prefer the 2017 to the 2018, but a 2 yr old board should be going pretty cheap. I’d offer them no more than 2200, maybe even 2000, and see what they say. I should think they’d be very keen to offload it right now, before the new stock arrives. The market for 23” wide boards is pretty small.
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The market for 23” wide boards is pretty small.
Yes usually there are plenty of narrow AllStar or narrow Sprint for sale close to the end of the season.
1) It seems that SB has a strong rebate program for racers so the starting price is lower and after the first weeks it starts going down
2) There are plenty of racers supported by this program
3) Most experienced amateurs have learned the lesson of buying a race competitive board for general use so the demand is often lower (this is true for any brand)
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There’s a lot of info on this forum and more generally on the web about the All Star differences 2017 vs 2018. You just have to search for it.
Thanks. I'll do it.
2490 Euros for a 2017 Board doesn’t seem like that much of a bargain to me. The 2019 boards will be out within a few weeks, making this a 2 yr-old design. Some people prefer the 2017 to the 2018, but a 2 yr old board should be going pretty cheap. I’d offer them no more than 2200, maybe even 2000, and see what they say. I should think they’d be very keen to offload it right now, before the new stock arrives. The market for 23” wide boards is pretty small.
That's great to know! I think I'll wait for the new stock to arrive and then try to negotiate with them. Meanwhile just do as many demos as possible.
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The market for 23” wide boards is pretty small.
Yes usually there are plenty of narrow AllStar or narrow Sprint for sale close to the end of the season.
1) It seems that SB has a strong rebate program for racers so the starting price is lower and after the first weeks it starts going down
Simply out of curiosity: how does this rebate program work? Do racers get a discount to buy a new model, and this discount increases over time? Is that what you mean?
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The market for 23” wide boards is pretty small.
Yes usually there are plenty of narrow AllStar or narrow Sprint for sale close to the end of the season.
1) It seems that SB has a strong rebate program for racers so the starting price is lower and after the first weeks it starts going down
Simply out of curiosity: how does this rebate program work? Do racers get a discount to buy a new model, and this discount increases over time? Is that what you mean?
It might vary with brands and regions and might not be the same for everybody. What was hinted to me by people in the program, is that new generation boards are purchase at a discount over retail but there is somewhat an obligation to update every year to stay in the program. Last year boards are then resold without loosing much money or at all. At least if was supposed to be like that before, but it might have become more difficult now as brands might be looking more cautiously at their operating and promotion costs. And of course once the market of aspiring racers or paddlers just hitching to get a narrow race board flattens then the resale might become and issue. I remember seeing on our used SUP sale group, the same AllStars going for sale at two very different price level and I while I do not know everybody at all on our local scene, I could not prevent thinking that it also reflected the one that had paid retail and the ones that did not in the used price.
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It might vary with brands and regions and might not be the same for everybody. What was hinted to me by people in the program, is that new generation boards are purchase at a discount over retail but there is somewhat an obligation to update every year to stay in the program. Last year boards are then resold without loosing much money or at all. At least if was supposed to be like that before, but it might have become more difficult now as brands might be looking more cautiously at their operating and promotion costs. And of course once the market of aspiring racers or paddlers just hitching to get a narrow race board flattens then the resale might become and issue. I remember seeing on our used SUP sale group, the same AllStars going for sale at two very different price level and I while I do not know everybody at all on our local scene, I could not prevent thinking that it also reflected the one that had paid retail and the ones that did not in the used price.
I wonder whether there is something else which can account for the two different price levels. Not sure if discount really gets reflected in the resell price.
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It might vary with brands and regions and might not be the same for everybody. What was hinted to me by people in the program, is that new generation boards are purchase at a discount over retail but there is somewhat an obligation to update every year to stay in the program. Last year boards are then resold without loosing much money or at all. At least if was supposed to be like that before, but it might have become more difficult now as brands might be looking more cautiously at their operating and promotion costs. And of course once the market of aspiring racers or paddlers just hitching to get a narrow race board flattens then the resale might become and issue. I remember seeing on our used SUP sale group, the same AllStars going for sale at two very different price level and I while I do not know everybody at all on our local scene, I could not prevent thinking that it also reflected the one that had paid retail and the ones that did not in the used price.
I wonder whether there is something else which can account for the two different price levels. Not sure if discount really gets reflected in the resell price.
Talking from an ex team paddler stance, it does. All we aimed to do was cover the cost of what we’d had discounted. We knew the secondhand market hold be challenging so provided it was cost neutral you’d sell - often well under value. I bought my current board under the same thing.
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All we aimed to do was cover the cost of what we’d had discounted. We knew the secondhand market hold be challenging so provided it was cost neutral you’d sell - often well under value.
Of course with score of new "used" race board going on the market every year, unless there is an exponential number of new racer candidates or narrow board wannabe, then the local scene become saturated and the prices go even lower for narrow race boards; while it maintains some value for wider boards. Anything 23" or under should be going for a song.i.e. 2017 Sprint 21.5 for CAD 1,500 or one third of its retail while a 2017 AllStar 27 keeps over CAD 2,500 or two third of its retail. Likely the same for 25/24.5.
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Talking from an ex team paddler stance, it does. All we aimed to do was cover the cost of what we’d had discounted. We knew the secondhand market hold be challenging so provided it was cost neutral you’d sell - often well under value. I bought my current board under the same thing.
All we aimed to do was cover the cost of what we’d had discounted. We knew the secondhand market hold be challenging so provided it was cost neutral you’d sell - often well under value.
Of course with score of new "used" race board going on the market every year, unless there is an exponential number of new racer candidates or narrow board wannabe, then the local scene become saturated and the prices go even lower for narrow race boards; while it maintains some value for wider boards. Anything 23" or under should be going for a song.i.e. 2017 Sprint 21.5 for CAD 1,500 or one third of its retail while a 2017 AllStar 27 keeps over CAD 2,500 or two third of its retail. Likely the same for 25/24.5.
I see. Thanks a lot for sharing! It's great to know that the price of narrow race boards should drop faster. ;D
I've contacted a local retailer to see if he could conjure up some bargains for me.
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I see. Thanks a lot for sharing! It's great to know that the price of narrow race boards should drop faster. ;D
I've contacted a local retailer to see if he could conjure up some bargains for me.
We were talking about previous year USED race boards sold by "sponsored" racers. You kind of need to follow that crowd and where they are selling these boards.
The guy that has shelved over $4K for a brand new race board is unlikely to try to sell it under $2.5K.
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We were talking about previous year USED race boards sold by "sponsored" racers. You kind of need to follow that crowd and where they are selling these boards.
The guy that has shelved over $4K for a brand new race board is unlikely to try to sell it under $2.5K.
That local retailer does seem to know several team paddlers who would coach some special sessions at his test center. I surely hope that they are going to sell their previous year boards in the next few weeks.
I also searched the internet for this kind of board, but could only find very few in online shops (explicitly annotated as team paddler boards). Definitely not on ebay. This gave me the impression that the market here is really small. ???
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I see. Thanks a lot for sharing! It's great to know that the price of narrow race boards should drop faster. ;D
I've contacted a local retailer to see if he could conjure up some bargains for me.
We were talking about previous year USED race boards sold by "sponsored" racers. You kind of need to follow that crowd and where they are selling these boards.
The guy that has shelved over $4K for a brand new race board is unlikely to try to sell it under $2.5K.
Yep, this is pretty much going to be my method moving forwards now. Buying a ex-team board that is only 6 months old for less than half of its value. The only boards I see that hold better money secondhand and sell in days are 14ft Starboard allstars no narrower than 25 inches in width. Once you go below 25, buy very carefully.
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^ outside UK & US people weigh less on average. So that advice depends where you are.
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Yeah, in Japan people may want different dimension boards.
The best thing to do financially is to buy a good board that you enjoy paddling, and then ride it forever. There’s remarkably little extra speed or time to be gained from going from one good board design to another, anyway. There’s a limit to what you can do with the 14ft palette and a rider already in their 20s or older.
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^ outside UK & US people weigh less on average. So that advice depends where you are.
It’s not so much a practical rationale based on body weight and subsequent stability though but there seems to be a general reluctance (psychological or perceptive I’d say) of buyers to buy sub 25 narrow race boards. It’s possibly due to such boards requiring more attention to paddle when you’re not racing and recreational use seems to be just as important to many.it might take a few more years for recreational paddlers to realise that 24 or even 23 width boards aren’t the challenge they used to be.
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From what I see in the countries that don't allow growth hormones in meat farming: the keen recreational fitness type person who has progressed enough to be interested in a race board are by majority interested in sub 25 wide boards.
Why? Because the fast fit guy/girl who tends to do well enough in races and then gets keen enough to invest and train for better racing results tend to be that light outdoor fitness build.
Come see for yourself. I think you'll be impressed with the race scene in France and Switzerland. I think it's still developing and people are getting good. And keen.
My guess is the over 25 wide boards being sold 2nd hand don't need to be top notch race boards but a bit more touring oriented.
Which brings us back to the OP's (original poster) question. Did you want a tippy fast race board or one that can do touring too. You did mention touring in your post. Fitness touring I presume.
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I see. Thanks a lot for sharing! It's great to know that the price of narrow race boards should drop faster. ;D
I've contacted a local retailer to see if he could conjure up some bargains for me.
We were talking about previous year USED race boards sold by "sponsored" racers. You kind of need to follow that crowd and where they are selling these boards.
The guy that has shelved over $4K for a brand new race board is unlikely to try to sell it under $2.5K.
Yep, this is pretty much going to be my method moving forwards now. Buying a ex-team board that is only 6 months old for less than half of its value. The only boards I see that hold better money secondhand and sell in days are 14ft Starboard allstars no narrower than 25 inches in width. Once you go below 25, buy very carefully.
Thanks again for the advice! Is your next board going to be a 2018 14ft All Star?
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Yeah, in Japan people may want different dimension boards.
The best thing to do financially is to buy a good board that you enjoy paddling, and then ride it forever. There’s remarkably little extra speed or time to be gained from going from one good board design to another, anyway. There’s a limit to what you can do with the 14ft palette and a rider already in their 20s or older.
...or ride it until the next major breakthrough occurs. BTW, has the design been consistently improved over the past few years?
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Which brings us back to the OP's (original poster) question. Did you want a tippy fast race board or one that can do touring too. You did mention touring in your post. Fitness touring I presume.
Okay the title might be somehow misleading. From the boards that I've already tried or plan to try, or have been recommended by others, I hope it is reasonable enough to infer that I'm looking for a fast race board. Yep I wouldn't mind do touring on a racer with my significant other who is on a true touring board.
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^ outside UK & US people weigh less on average. So that advice depends where you are.
It’s not so much a practical rationale based on body weight and subsequent stability though but there seems to be a general reluctance (psychological or perceptive I’d say) of buyers to buy sub 25 narrow race boards. It’s possibly due to such boards requiring more attention to paddle when you’re not racing and recreational use seems to be just as important to many.it might take a few more years for recreational paddlers to realise that 24 or even 23 width boards aren’t the challenge they used to be.
Unless you are of very slight build, narrow boards are a royal PITA.
Why make it any harder than it has to be? If you are chasing a podium position with every fibre of your being, then sure. But most people just want a board they can use for lots of things and makes paddling a pleasure.
If I go under 26” wide I actually find my toes often hanging off the rails on one side, or cramped up against the sidewalk. I’m quite a wide build. It’s uncomfortable. So wtf would I want to go any narrower? I’m not going to be winning any races at my age, so what is the point? I’d rather have a (fast) board that is comfortable and I can sell easily.
The race-obsessed are such a small minority of paddlers. There are probably five times the number of “ex-racers” in the UK as racers. They want a fast board, sure, but also a flattering one, at a good price.
The first thing the average Joe learns, when they take up racing even semi-seriously, is that the results are 99.8% the paddler, not the board. So unless you are really battling for the top spot on the podium with someone who is within less than half a percent of your speed, it really isn’t going to matter much.
Michael Booth isn’t going to stop winning if you put him on a SIC RS rather than the Starboard Sprint he normally uses. The elite paddlers swap teams regularly, but at the end of the year their positions are pretty much the same, whatever they are riding.
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^ outside UK & US people weigh less on average. So that advice depends where you are.
It’s not so much a practical rationale based on body weight and subsequent stability though but there seems to be a general reluctance (psychological or perceptive I’d say) of buyers to buy sub 25 narrow race boards. It’s possibly due to such boards requiring more attention to paddle when you’re not racing and recreational use seems to be just as important to many.it might take a few more years for recreational paddlers to realise that 24 or even 23 width boards aren’t the challenge they used to be.
Unless you are of very slight build, narrow boards are a royal PITA.
Why make it any harder than it has to be? If you are chasing a podium position with every fibre of your being, then sure. But most people just want a board they can use for lots of things and makes paddling a pleasure.
If I go under 26” wide I actually find my toes often hanging off the rails on one side, or cramped up against the sidewalk. I’m quite a wide build. It’s uncomfortable. So wtf would I want to go any narrower? I’m not going to be winning any races at my age, so what is the point? I’d rather have a (fast) board that is comfortable and I can sell easily.
The race-obsessed are such a small minority of paddlers. There are probably five times the number of “ex-racers” in the UK as racers. They want a fast board, sure, but also a flattering one, at a good price.
The first thing the average Joe learns, when they take up racing even semi-seriously, is that the results are 99.8% the paddler, not the board. So unless you are really battling for the top spot on the podium with someone who is within less than half a percent of your speed, it really isn’t going to matter much.
Michael Booth isn’t going to stop winning if you put him on a SIC RS rather than the Starboard Sprint he normally uses. The elite paddlers swap teams regularly, but at the end of the year their positions are pretty much the same, whatever they are riding.
Some lessons have to be learned. We’re all guilty of trying to buy speed at some time or another. I even knew better and still did it my own self. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
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^ outside UK & US people weigh less on average. So that advice depends where you are.
It’s not so much a practical rationale based on body weight and subsequent stability though but there seems to be a general reluctance (psychological or perceptive I’d say) of buyers to buy sub 25 narrow race boards. It’s possibly due to such boards requiring more attention to paddle when you’re not racing and recreational use seems to be just as important to many.it might take a few more years for recreational paddlers to realise that 24 or even 23 width boards aren’t the challenge they used to be.
Unless you are of very slight build, narrow boards are a royal PITA.
Why make it any harder than it has to be? If you are chasing a podium position with every fibre of your being, then sure. But most people just want a board they can use for lots of things and makes paddling a pleasure.
If I go under 26” wide I actually find my toes often hanging off the rails on one side, or cramped up against the sidewalk. I’m quite a wide build. It’s uncomfortable. So wtf would I want to go any narrower? I’m not going to be winning any races at my age, so what is the point? I’d rather have a (fast) board that is comfortable and I can sell easily.
The race-obsessed are such a small minority of paddlers. There are probably five times the number of “ex-racers” in the UK as racers. They want a fast board, sure, but also a flattering one, at a good price.
The first thing the average Joe learns, when they take up racing even semi-seriously, is that the results are 99.8% the paddler, not the board. So unless you are really battling for the top spot on the podium with someone who is within less than half a percent of your speed, it really isn’t going to matter much.
Michael Booth isn’t going to stop winning if you put him on a SIC RS rather than the Starboard Sprint he normally uses. The elite paddlers swap teams regularly, but at the end of the year their positions are pretty much the same, whatever they are riding.
It's funny you say this as I was t going to get a new board. However, having spent a lot of time in my epic surf ski and then going back to my Sup, made me realise just how slow wider boards are and how much I fancy the challenge of taking something that is a little sleeker with a fraction more speed.
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Yeah but you are exactly who I’m *not* talking about. You’d sell your own Granny for a 1% increase in speed :)
Stop pratting about and get a 21” wide board. Then you’ll know when you get your ass kicked by a teenager on a 23” wide one, that thinking “If only I went narrower I’d be faster” is just not going to work for you :) There’s something reassuring about not being able to blame your equipment :) Stop giving yourself excuses for your failure to achieve the goals that your ego has set you :)
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Yeah but you are exactly who I’m *not* talking about. You’d sell your own Granny for a 1% increase in speed :)
Stop pratting about and get a 21” wide board. Then you’ll know when you get your ass kicked by a teenager on a 23” wide one, that thinking “If only I went narrower I’d be faster” is just not going to work for you :) There’s something reassuring about not being able to blame your equipment :) Stop giving yourself excuses for your failure to achieve the goals that your ego has set you :)
To be fair, I like speed whether I race or not. For example, I have the fastest bikes I can lay my hands on in disciplines I don’t even compete at. Touring based gear is just frustratingly hard work and it’s speed is not as arbitrary as it should be.
On the subject of goals, I haven’t lost yet ;-)
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I have a question that is slightly off topic. Today I went to a garage to see what kind of solution they offer for the transportation of a 14 ft (ca. 4.27 m) board. One guy suggested that my car, being ca. 4.44 m long, is too short for such a task (or conversely the board is too long). What do you guys think? Is it really the case? Which vehicles do you normally use for transportation? Below are some dimensions in mm.
(https://www.angurten.de/Bilder/abmessungen/600/1620-03.jpg)
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I have a question that is slightly off topic. Today I went to a garage to see what kind of solution they offer for the transportation of a 14 ft (ca. 4.27 m) board. One guy suggested that my car, being ca. 4.44 m long, is too short for such a task (or conversely the board is too long). What do you guys think? Is it really the case? Which vehicles do you normally use for transportation? Below are some dimensions in mm.
(https://www.angurten.de/Bilder/abmessungen/600/1620-03.jpg)
What a load of horseshit. Thule.com and enter your vehicle details and it will give you everything you need to install rack on your car.
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I have a question that is slightly off topic. Today I went to a garage to see what kind of solution they offer for the transportation of a 14 ft (ca. 4.27 m) board. One guy suggested that my car, being ca. 4.44 m long, is too short for such a task (or conversely the board is too long). What do you guys think? Is it really the case? Which vehicles do you normally use for transportation? Below are some dimensions in mm.
(https://www.angurten.de/Bilder/abmessungen/600/1620-03.jpg)
Really :-)
I regularly transport my 17'4" on top of my Subary Outback 15.8" and do not plan anytime soon to leave it at home :-)
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To be fair, I like speed whether I race or not. For example, I have the fastest bikes I can lay my hands on in disciplines I don’t even compete at. Touring based gear is just frustratingly hard work and it’s speed is not as arbitrary as it should be.
On the subject of goals, I haven’t lost yet ;-)
I own a low-end crossbike which I use every day for commuting 30 km. I've been improving consistently every year on the overall speed, but never wanted to replace it with a lighter/faster bike. That said, my preference for a narrow board is not really driven by its speed, but rather by the willingness to challenge myself. Otherwise I would stay with a 25 inch flatwater board, I suppose (yeah I only paddle inland lakes). :)
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What a load of horseshit. Thule.com and enter your vehicle details and it will give you everything you need to install rack on your car.
Yep they have some nice racks. I thought there might be some maximal length limit for a specific car model and a board that is too long might introduce instability.
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Really :-)
I regularly transport my 17'4" on top of my Subary Outback 15.8" and do not plan anytime soon to leave it at home :-)
That's really reassuring to know! How do you distribute that excessive 1'8", or how far back is your board sitting on top of your car?
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Really :-)
I regularly transport my 17'4" on top of my Subary Outback 15.8" and do not plan anytime soon to leave it at home :-)
That's really reassuring to know! How do you distribute that excessive 1'8", or how far back is your board sitting on top of your car?
Almost all excess is at the back.
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Just balance your board on the rack. Don't shift weight to the front or back - balance is the key.
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I see surfskis and tandem OC1's on dinky cars every day. Recently, when I was modifying a jetski trailer for two unlimited OC6's the guys brought one of the 40' unlimiteds for a fitting on top of a compact truck. They rigged a brace to the front bumper, dropped the front rack and used the back one (not wise to support a strong but flexy structure in three places). 40 feet of boat on a 14' truck. Worked fine. You won't have any problem with a narrowly spaced rack as long as you restrain the front from pushing up in the wind. A wimpy rope will do the job just fine.
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I have a question that is slightly off topic. Today I went to a garage to see what kind of solution they offer for the transportation of a 14 ft (ca. 4.27 m) board. One guy suggested that my car, being ca. 4.44 m long, is too short for such a task (or conversely the board is too long). What do you guys think? Is it really the case? Which vehicles do you normally use for transportation? Below are some dimensions in mm.
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Really :-)
I regularly transport my 17'4" on top of my Subary Outback 15.8" and do not plan anytime soon to leave it at home :-)
That's really reassuring to know! How do you distribute that excessive 1'8", or how far back is your board sitting on top of your car?
Almost all excess is at the back.
I see. Thanks!
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Just balance your board on the rack. Don't shift weight to the front or back - balance is the key.
I'll keep this in mind. Thanks a lot for your advice!
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1) Then you’ll know when you get your ass kicked by a teenager on a 23” wide one, that thinking
2) “If only I went narrower I’d be faster” is just not going to work for you :)
3) There’s something reassuring about not being able to blame your equipment :)
4) Stop giving yourself excuses for your failure to achieve the goals that your ego has set you :)
Here's some dry answers:
1) That already happens (courtesy of Ben Pye or Aaron Rowe in the past) but to be honest, I'd be a bit worried for the sport if they couldn't beat a 43 year old.
2) I don't have that concern. It's about risk vs gains and I don't believe I've had many (if any) bad SUP races due to to equipment choice alone.
3) There really isn't when you're looking for progression. To give you an example, in my cycling my power output has plateua'd over the last 18 months no matter what I do to try and break it. I've been going faster than ever though because I continually tweak my aerodynamic set and equipment up to find more gains. However, its the former that is annoying - I just see the latter as low hanging fruit that I don't reflect much on.
4) As far as SUP goes, I don't have any (although I've still got a couple of big ones left in cycling that niggle). I only paddle twice a week and its unstructured most of the time and we also have no proper national championships (which is the kind of event I would focus or train for intensely if we had one) so my attitude to the sport is quite relaxed (which is why I don't mind offering out nuggets of info in both articles and videos). I've never used equipment as an excuse - more a realistic acknowledgement of knowing my skills and their limitations but I still want to see some kind of personal progression. Frankly, I got more personal satisfaction out of the winter time trial series I organised last winter than I did in my races this year as I could see stark improvements straight away.
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I see surfskis and tandem OC1's on dinky cars every day. Recently, when I was modifying a jetski trailer for two unlimited OC6's the guys brought one of the 40' unlimiteds for a fitting on top of a compact truck. They rigged a brace to the front bumper, dropped the front rack and used the back one (not wise to support a strong but flexy structure in three places). 40 feet of boat on a 14' truck. Worked fine. You won't have any problem with a narrowly spaced rack as long as you restrain the front from pushing up in the wind. A wimpy rope will do the job just fine.
Wow, 40 ft boat on a 14 ft truck. That should've looked amazing!
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1) Then you’ll know when you get your ass kicked by a teenager on a 23” wide one, that thinking
2) “If only I went narrower I’d be faster” is just not going to work for you :)
3) There’s something reassuring about not being able to blame your equipment :)
4) Stop giving yourself excuses for your failure to achieve the goals that your ego has set you :)
Here's some dry answers:
1) That already happens (courtesy of Ben Pye or Aaron Rowe in the past) but to be honest, I'd be a bit worried for the sport if they couldn't beat a 43 year old.
2) I don't have that concern. It's about risk vs gains and I don't believe I've had many (if any) bad SUP races due to to equipment choice alone.
3) There really isn't when you're looking for progression. To give you an example, in my cycling my power output has plateua'd over the last 18 months no matter what I do to try and break it. I've been going faster than ever though because I continually tweak my aerodynamic set and equipment up to find more gains. However, its the former that is annoying - I just see the latter as low hanging fruit that I don't reflect much on.
4) As far as SUP goes, I don't have any (although I've still got a couple of big ones left in cycling that niggle). I only paddle twice a week and its unstructured most of the time and we also have no proper national championships (which is the kind of event I would focus or train for intensely if we had one) so my attitude to the sport is quite relaxed (which is why I don't mind offering out nuggets of info in both articles and videos). I've never used equipment as an excuse - more a realistic acknowledgement of knowing my skills and their limitations but I still want to see some kind of personal progression. Frankly, I got more personal satisfaction out of the winter time trial series I organised last winter than I did in my races this year as I could see stark improvements straight away.
Go and do the M2O, before you are too old. Then we’d all be impressed :)
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Really :-)
I regularly transport my 17'4" on top of my Subary Outback 15.8" and do not plan anytime soon to leave it at home :-)
That's really reassuring to know! How do you distribute that excessive 1'8", or how far back is your board sitting on top of your car?
Almost all excess is at the back.
I see. Thanks!
Which means that the board is balanced weight wise with the pin tail at the front and the wider nose at teh back.
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^ depends which continent you're on
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Which means that the board is balanced weight wise with the pin tail at the front and the wider nose at teh back.
Thanks a lot for the nice picture! One day when I have my own unlimited, I won't hesitate to put it on top of my car.
I checked the regulations here. No excess at the front is allowed, while a maximum excess of 1.5 m is possible at the back. So I should be good to go. ;D
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Go and do the M2O, before you are too old. Then we’d all be impressed :)
It doesn't inspire me. I do fancy the 11 cities though at some point.
(I think Jo Hamilton Vale did M2O and she's a lot older than me.)
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I have a question that is slightly off topic. Today I went to a garage to see what kind of solution they offer for the transportation of a 14 ft (ca. 4.27 m) board. One guy suggested that my car, being ca. 4.44 m long, is too short for such a task (or conversely the board is too long). What do you guys think? Is it really the case? Which vehicles do you normally use for transportation? Below are some dimensions in mm.
(https://www.angurten.de/Bilder/abmessungen/600/1620-03.jpg)
btw
After paddling with a 28" board for half a year, I tried a 23" Sprint and thought that was really great. Even 10km worked, although sometimes a bit shaky. Then the first race on a river with a lot of current and I fell off the board 14 times.
Immediately sold the Sprint and bought a 25" all water board (Sidewinder) and that was ok.
Now I have a 24.75" racer and an 26" all-water and only if it's really flat, the racer is faster. Starting in the race is much better with the all-water and as soon as there are just some waves, the racer loses.
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btw
After paddling with a 28" board for half a year, I tried a 23" Sprint and thought that was really great. Even 10km worked, although sometimes a bit shaky. Then the first race on a river with a lot of current and I fell off the board 14 times.
Immediately sold the Sprint and bought a 25" all water board (Sidewinder) and that was ok.
Now I have a 24.75" racer and an 26" all-water and only if it's really flat, the racer is faster. Starting in the race is much better with the all-water and as soon as there are just some waves, the racer loses.
Nice photo Mr. Proper, thanks! The SIC RS does seem to be a nice option for me, too. How does it compare to the Allstar 2017 that you once owned?
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Nice photo Mr. Proper, thanks! The SIC RS does seem to be a nice option for me, too. How does it compare to the Allstar 2017 that you once owned?
I also tried the RS 14x24.5 and I can say that it was more stable and faster than the Allstar for me. Even the RS 14x26 is a bit faster for me than the Allstar 14x24.5. I have no idea what it is. But in the conditions where I paddle, the RS works amazingly.
I am 6.4 ft tall and weigh 202 lbs and maybe the >24.5 wide boards dive too deep or are too tippy. Anyway, right now the board is the best I've ever had.
Boat and ship waves from the side? No matter. Cross chop? No matter. buoy turns at waves? No matter.
10 months ago I had my fastest time on the 10 km of my home track with my Lightcorp.
Yesterday, in very similar conditions, I was only 7 seconds slower on the RS.
The RS makes so much fun. It glides on every little wave. Also drafting behind slow boats works better than on all my boards so far.
My recommendation is therefore a RS in 24.5 or 23 width, depending on your ability.
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Go and do the M2O, before you are too old. Then we’d all be impressed :)
It doesn't inspire me. I do fancy the 11 cities though at some point.
(I think Jo Hamilton Vale did M2O and she's a lot older than me.)
11 cities is too close to what you know - it would be just like going down the gym for you. The M2O is an entirely different level of challenge.
And there are people older than Jo who do the M2O. But we are talking about YOU :)
How long are you going to keep getting a kick out of slogging round some dreary cold and wet European lake, river or canal?
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Nice photo Mr. Proper, thanks! The SIC RS does seem to be a nice option for me, too. How does it compare to the Allstar 2017 that you once owned?
I also tried the RS 14x24.5 and I can say that it was more stable and faster than the Allstar for me. Even the RS 14x26 is a bit faster for me than the Allstar 14x24.5. I have no idea what it is. But in the conditions where I paddle, the RS works amazingly.
I am 6.4 ft tall and weigh 202 lbs and maybe the >24.5 wide boards dive too deep or are too tippy. Anyway, right now the board is the best I've ever had.
Boat and ship waves from the side? No matter. Cross chop? No matter. buoy turns at waves? No matter.
10 months ago I had my fastest time on the 10 km of my home track with my Lightcorp.
Yesterday, in very similar conditions, I was only 7 seconds slower on the RS.
The RS makes so much fun. It glides on every little wave. Also drafting behind slow boats works better than on all my boards so far.
My recommendation is therefore a RS in 24.5 or 23 width, depending on your ability.
7 seconds difference is really marginal for a 10 km run. Maybe you also improved a lot within the past 10 months. :)
I'll definitely try to get my feet on the RS model in 23" and 24.5 width. Thank you so much for sharing your paddling experiences!
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How long are you going to keep getting a kick out of slogging round some dreary cold and wet European lake, river or canal?
Well, the number of new races in general coming out that i fancy is dwindling. I suspect that my plans for racing over bumpier waters will be on my surf ski, not on a SUP. It's much faster and much more fun.
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Nice photo Mr. Proper, thanks! The SIC RS does seem to be a nice option for me, too. How does it compare to the Allstar 2017 that you once owned?
I also tried the RS 14x24.5 and I can say that it was more stable and faster than the Allstar for me. Even the RS 14x26 is a bit faster for me than the Allstar 14x24.5. I have no idea what it is. But in the conditions where I paddle, the RS works amazingly.
I am 6.4 ft tall and weigh 202 lbs and maybe the >24.5 wide boards dive too deep or are too tippy. Anyway, right now the board is the best I've ever had.
Boat and ship waves from the side? No matter. Cross chop? No matter. buoy turns at waves? No matter.
10 months ago I had my fastest time on the 10 km of my home track with my Lightcorp.
Yesterday, in very similar conditions, I was only 7 seconds slower on the RS.
The RS makes so much fun. It glides on every little wave. Also drafting behind slow boats works better than on all my boards so far.
My recommendation is therefore a RS in 24.5 or 23 width, depending on your ability.
I doubt comparing two tests 10 months apart of a single run says much but then you're not the only one saying how good a board the RS is.
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I doubt comparing two tests 10 months apart of a single run says much but then you're not the only one saying how good a board the RS is.
Yes that's true of course. And of course I paddled the route much more often within the 10 months. But unfortunately the conditions were not comparable. Either too high water level and thus more current, too much wind from the wrong direction or I was unfit etc.
But I think I know my boards and myself well enough.
When the water is flat, I can paddle the Lightcorp the fastest. With the Lightcorp I have made my fastest kilometer (within a 10 km tour).
As soon as the water gets more choppy, the RS is faster (my fastest km is only 0.1 km/h slower than the Lightcorp, though I'm not sure how much the conditions were comparable).
The Allstar is also a great board, but for me the slowest of the three.
What is still a mystery to me, how it can be that the RS 14x26 can be so fast despite the width and weight in relation to the Allstar or Lightcorp.
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rocker
(My guess)
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Mark Raaphorst spent a lot of time refining the RS design, and he’s kept it clean and done it well. So IMO there’s no one thing I think that makes it so good, it’s just the combination of them. The speed comes from having just the right volume distribution in combination with just the right rocker, with just the right nose and rail shape to make it work, etc.
It’s going to take a pretty remarkable design to be a significantly better all-waters board, even if the RS isn’t that great in big downwind conditions (but then, who would buy it for that?). If I was the shaper for one of the other brands I’d be looking at the RS and thinking “ah bollox... why didn’t I just do that? It’s so obvious when you see it...”.
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How long are you going to keep getting a kick out of slogging round some dreary cold and wet European lake, river or canal?
Well, the number of new races in general coming out that i fancy is dwindling. I suspect that my plans for racing over bumpier waters will be on my surf ski, not on a SUP. It's much faster and much more fun.
Downwind foiling is clearly the future - no doubt Kai will be doing the M2O faster than any surf ski. He broke under 3 hours for 32 miles yesterday, and thinks he will be able to go quite a bit faster still. So if you really want speed, then grab yourself a SUP foil and start training in the sea ;)
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1) The first thing the average Joe learns, when they take up racing even semi-seriously, is that the results are 99.8% the paddler, not the board.
2) So unless you are really battling for the top spot on the podium with someone who is within less than half a percent of your speed, it really isn’t going to matter much.
3) Michael Booth isn’t going to stop winning if you put him on a SIC RS rather than the Starboard Sprint he normally uses.
1) I agree. The reality is that most racers don't even undertake the basics of structured training. Without that, you're losing huge chunks of your potential. No board will turn a donkey into a racehorse.
2) Interestingly, in the recent Travis Grant interview (when he was at the APP in London) he remarked that he'd been pushed this year onto a "tippy" 21 inch wide board that he felt was just to allow him to keep up with everyone else.
3) With elite athletes and all else being equal, it's exactly those kind of athletes who will lose out and stop winning by being on the wrong gear. Partly as the boards performance becomes a larger percentage of the performance equation when against equal peers. You can turn an racehorse into a donkey.
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Did not see any mention of the NSP Ninja, I have a 2017 14' x 25" model which I think might be a good next level step. I am your height but heavier (190 lbs.). This board flies in flat water conditions and despite the rounded bottom is quite stable after a few times out. I think it's speed is closer to a board an inch or two narrower, It is in like new condition, and for sale at a reasonable price if you are interested. I've switched to Mistral and now paddle their Stealth 17' 6" unlimited which is fantastic in flat water.
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what about a infinity whiplash 14x25 dugout or flat deck.
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Did not see any mention of the NSP Ninja, I have a 2017 14' x 25" model which I think might be a good next level step. I am your height but heavier (190 lbs.). This board flies in flat water conditions and despite the rounded bottom is quite stable after a few times out. I think it's speed is closer to a board an inch or two narrower, It is in like new condition, and for sale at a reasonable price if you are interested. I've switched to Mistral and now paddle their Stealth 17' 6" unlimited which is fantastic in flat water.
Thanks Lee for your suggestion! Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near Cortez. Otherwise I'd like very much to give it a try. :)
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Yeah, in Japan people may want different dimension boards.
The best thing to do financially is to buy a good board that you enjoy paddling, and then ride it forever. There’s remarkably little extra speed or time to be gained from going from one good board design to another, anyway. There’s a limit to what you can do with the 14ft palette and a rider already in their 20s or older.
I’ve just got back from my first go on a Starboard sprint 21.5 width. Certainly a challenge (and I’m not sure I could race it) but not an insurmountable challenge. Surprisingly stable.
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Just left my inflatable at the shop where it was acquired. Apparently there is something wrong with the fin system since the fin (FCS Touring 9") got pulled out of the box (by water) during all of my last three training sessions. The retailers weren't sure whether it is the fin or the box. They suggested me to leave the board there so that they can take it to the distributor next week. Guess I'll have to stick to my other half's 12'6"x31" inflatable for the next two sessions. ???
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FCS connect (click-in) system?
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FCS connect (click-in) system?
Yep, although I could hardly hear the click anymore...
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I was paddling beside a guy last year during the Kalmalka lake crossing, and the back end of his board went all squirrelly, and he fell in. His click in fin fell out with about 10kms/6miles left to go.
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I was paddling beside a guy last year during the Kalmalka lake crossing, and the back end of his board went all squirrelly, and he fell in. His click in fin fell out with about 10kms/6miles left to go.
Poor guy...Lucky for me, the front part of the fin was still attached to the box when I got out of water. Probably caused a lot of drag. This same thing already happened for the third time in a row...
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Just came back from a 70 min session with my other half's 12'6"x31" inflatable touring board. Hit for the first time an average speed of 7 kph (while paddling for at least 60 min), versus 6.7 kph of 60 min paddling last Sunday with my 14'x28" inflatable and a dangling fin. The wrong fin placement did make a big difference, I reckon. Besides, I do feel that I'm slowly improving. :D
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Just left my inflatable at the shop where it was acquired. Apparently there is something wrong with the fin system since the fin (FCS Touring 9") got pulled out of the box (by water) during all of my last three training sessions. The retailers weren't sure whether it is the fin or the box.
Somethings wrong with your retailer; it's not the fin, it's the fin box. The inflatable fin boxes just suck. It is what it is and nothing they can do. Use a standard screw fin and tape up your fin for a tighter fit. Most SUP manufacturers still use boxes built on the windsurfing standard (wider fin width) rather then the standard longboard surf box (narrower fin width). I'd guess it's where they've gone wrong with the inflatable boxes.
All my standard fins wobbled in my inflatable boxes (I've had a few) and although the click-ins didn't wobble, they never clicked-in properly and I always knew I was taking a chance that they might just pop out.
I dig click in fins, but even with the much tigher and proper tolerance in the FCS II surfboard boxes, they still just fall out. Part the reason, I run Futures in my surfboards and if I'm open ocean paddling, I never put in one of my click-in fins.
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Some fins and boxes just are not that compatible. We have 12 different fins and 5 different boards. Some fins simply will not fit unless you sand them down a huge amount. Other fins are way too narrow with way too much slop even with spacers. So have never gone the click-in route. Best may be to find other fins that fit your box properly and just use them instead. We have the plastic FCS Touring 9.0 but the traditional screw and plate.
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Lessons learned. I'll see what the retailer has to say when he's back from the distributor. Guess I'll probably have to buy a standard screw fin.
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Update: At the weekend I managed to demo two boards, a 2018 Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder 14'×25" and a 2018 SIC RS 14'x23", each for one hour. Both are very nice boards.
The Sidewinder is extremely stable, both primarily and secondarily, and is quite responsive to manoeuvers. It has a more prominent nose rocker which worked really well when riding motor boat wakes. The glide was okay but not impressive. What I do not like so much is 1) the lack of drainage holes: quite some water was flowing around when I was paddling, and 2) the quality of the deck pad: the owner had only paddled for around 15 times but dirt was everywhere and cleaning it was not that easy at all.
I had the opportunity to paddle the RS alongside its owner who was on a Joe Bark. What a nice surprise! The half displacement hull pierced very efficiently each small chop and it felt like flying. Finally I could understand why Mark Raaphorst named it the Rocket Ship. I was totally relaxed sprinting with the fellow paddler and did not have to worry about my balance. Even made several pivot turns which I failed to do 6 weeks ago on a 23" wide SB All Star. One apparent caveat is, as Area 10 already mentioned in another post, that the leash slot is too much forward---stepped twice on it while trying pivot turns. The water stored in the sunken handle was visually a lot but I could live with it.
Haven't made my final decision yet but would probably go for an RS. :)
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Good idea to go for a good board right up front. Both of those are great.
I wouldn't worry about the forward leash plug. I had one and was worried when stepping on it but one gets over it quickly. It's even a nice feedback. When you're stepping on it you know exactly where your foot is.
The SIC handle is as good as it gets. All sunken handles carry 3 dl of water. Get over it. Strap handles also have their downsides [the plugs can get stressed and become leaks].
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Impressed with your balance. The SIC is 23". Sounds like it is working for you.
Can't go wrong with it!
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Nice! Good to see the RS23 working out. Sounds like a solid design if more stable than the AS23. Mark seems to have found the right formula again. ;)
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I wouldn't worry about the forward leash plug. I had one and was worried when stepping on it but one gets over it quickly. It's even a nice feedback. When you're stepping on it you know exactly where your foot is.
Good point! Hope I'll get used to it soon.
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Impressed with your balance. The SIC is 23". Sounds like it is working for you.
Can't go wrong with it!
Thanks! Now I wonder how it would perform in light downwind situations (≥22 kts).
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Nice! Good to see the RS23 working out. Sounds like a solid design if more stable than the AS23. Mark seems to have found the right formula again. ;)
Unfortunately I don't have access to that AS23 anymore. Otherwise it would be interesting to do a head-to-head comparison.
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Today I had the opportunity to set my feet on two boards: a 2017 Sprint 14'x21.5" and a brand-new 2019 Sprint 14'x23", in a narrow river with 2---3 kph flow.
As Eagle already mentioned in this thread, the 21.5" was one step tippier than the AS 23" that I tried some time ago. I managed to stay dry while drafting a fellow paddler who was on the 23". The glide was absolutely amazing but frequently making small direction adjustments to follow the paddler ahead was not easy for me.
I found the new 23" less stable than the SIC RS 23" that I paddled last Sun. The owner tried to explain to me how messy it could be at a mass start like the one in the 11 City Tour and started accelerating (he is a ~90kg power machine). We went head to head for a few meters before the wake sent me swimming. Definitely made his point. :D
I do not think I will race with a Sprint any time soon but paddling it is quite some fun, well, as long as I am not drafting. I was advised not to try any pivot turn due to the width of the river so I will have to wait for the next time.
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its fun to paddle fast :) but not fun when its unstable to paddle ::)
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its fun to paddle fast :) but not fun when its unstable to paddle ::)
+1
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its fun to paddle fast :) but not fun when its unstable to paddle ::)
I agree. I would take it for touring though, just for the excellent glide.
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its fun to paddle fast :) but not fun when its unstable to paddle ::)
+1
Yeah, a board that is too tippy for you will suck all enjoyment out of paddling. Unless you are racing seriously, there really is no need. It would be cheaper and easier to stay at home and stuff a wasps’ nest into your underpants. The effect will ultimately be the same.
Let the teenagers demonstrate to you how old and decrepit you are, by flying past on super-narrow boards withit even thinking about it. And then just go paddle your “grandad board” for the sheer fun of doing it :) Different stages of life bring different advantages and disadvantages. A middle-aged man struggling on a board that is too narrow for him is just the latest sign of a midlife crisis not being managed well.
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I just tried out a friend's NSP Sonic 14'/25.5" wide. I got the hang of it after a while. It was pretty fast and I liked the boof nose a lot, but I was spending a lot of energy standing. Since I don't care that much about racing, I was happy to return the board.
I get that it's a racehorse, and racehorses can be tough, but my idea of fun isn't finding the fastest narrowest board I can stand on.
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A fellow paddler of mine tried out a 2019 SB All Star 14'x23.5" yesterday and found it more tippy than his 2019 SB Sprint 14'x23". He attributed the instability of the All Star primarily to the reduced tail width (14.4" vs 15.8") and the higher standing area. Said he would go for a 24.5" wide All Star instead.
Unfortunately I couldn't joint the ride. Still it sounds awkward to me for an all-water board and a flat-water board of similar width from the same brand.
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I just tried out a friend's NSP Sonic 14'/25.5" wide. I got the hang of it after a while. It was pretty fast and I liked the boof nose a lot, but I was spending a lot of energy standing. Since I don't care that much about racing, I was happy to return the board.
I get that it's a racehorse, and racehorses can be tough, but my idea of fun isn't finding the fastest narrowest board I can stand on.
Try a 14x26 SIC RS if you like stability. Crazy stable. So stable in fact that I found myself thinking that maybe I should have got the 24” wide version yesterday, even as I set a PB in suboptimal conditions on a circuit I’ve been paddling for 10 years on over 30 different boards. While nursing an arm injury...
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I just tried out a friend's NSP Sonic 14'/25.5" wide. I got the hang of it after a while. It was pretty fast and I liked the boof nose a lot, but I was spending a lot of energy standing. Since I don't care that much about racing, I was happy to return the board.
I get that it's a racehorse, and racehorses can be tough, but my idea of fun isn't finding the fastest narrowest board I can stand on.
Try a 14x26 SIC RS if you like stability. Crazy stable. So stable in fact that I found myself thinking that maybe I should have got the 24” wide version yesterday, even as I set a PB in suboptimal conditions on a circuit I’ve been paddling for 10 years on over 30 different boards. While nursing an arm injury...
Yes, exactly, do that. I got my RS 14x26 in mid-July and since then paddled it almost 490 km. The best board I ever had. I am now considering buying the 14x23 RS for my wife and for me on very quiet conditions.
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Mr. Proper, would you also try the new 14x21.5 RS when it comes out? I am curious how it would perform in flat water.
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Mr. Proper, would you also try the new 14x21.5 RS when it comes out? I am curious how it would perform in flat water.
Why would you wonder? It will be:
1. Very fast.
2. Pretty damn tippy (but less so than some other 21.5” wide boards).
But I guess that everyone needs to exceed their limits in order to find out where their limits are. So why not get one? If you are very young, very light, or very talented, you’ll have no problem on it at all. Or if you are a very determined, wobbly oldster who paddles alone in sheltered water, you might also get away with it. If however none of these things apply to you, you may want to take a deep breath before ordering.
https://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0
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A middle-aged man struggling on a board that is too narrow for him is just the latest sign of a midlife crisis not being managed well.
This is terribly cynical. You do seem to have a thing about the aging process theme as you bring it up a lot ?
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A middle-aged man struggling on a board that is too narrow for him is just the latest sign of a midlife crisis not being managed well.
This is terribly cynical. You do seem to have a thing about the aging process theme as you bring it up a lot ?
Maybe it just seems that way to you, in the same way that if you own a Volvo car, you suddenly notice how many Volvos there are on the roads ;)
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A middle-aged man struggling on a board that is too narrow for him is just the latest sign of a midlife crisis not being managed well.
This is terribly cynical. You do seem to have a thing about the aging process theme as you bring it up a lot ?
Maybe it just seems that way to you, in the same way that if you own a Volvo car, you suddenly notice how many Volvos there are on the roads ;)
Two facts (ish).
1) Embrace the fact that your aerobic efficiency is potentially better than ever.
2) Nobody drives a Volvo
You really need to find the rest of that half empty glass. ;D
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I have found a 16ft full glass. It’s you that is on here bellyaching because you can’t use the same equipment as the cool kids because you are too old and heavy. If you had an UL you could probably paddle a sub-20 board, and your body would thank you for it as the years go by.
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It’s you that is on here bellyaching because you can’t use the same equipment as the cool kids because you are too old and heavy. If you had an UL you could probably paddle a sub-20 board, and your body would thank you for it as the years go by.
I recall I was on here a month ago having actually finally tried a 21.5 and said that with time served, it was useable ? Hell, we should be being beaten by 20 years olds. As for weight, well, I'll just defer to what I said above about amateur sport. At 88kg, I shouldn't really be a competitive cyclist either but the great thing with competing as an amateur is that you can compensate for genetic limitations with a bit of knowledge and time spent. SUP currently isn't much different. It's only at elite level (whereby most things are equal) that you're screwed by not being from the right jellymould. I've certainly not complained about my results because of the cool kids. We only have two in the UK anyway. I spend most of my time racing against whoever can fight father time the longest or isn't dead yet.
The upskilling effect I have mentioned though (with the move to narrower boards) is related to the sport at large. That's really whereby my research outcomes take over from my own preferences. Focus too much on the the thin wedge of the sports participants and you get a downward spiral to, well, something like the situation C1 has found itself in. Obscurity, inaccessibility and a lack of relevance. A drive for performance is a drive of a nail in the coffin of a sport in my experience (despite personally loving the former).
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As I say, this is about *pleasure* (and longevity, and accessibility). I appreciate that you are a training robot who needs his tightly regimented daily fix of pain and needless suffering, but most people would rather actually enjoy their paddling, by using a board that suits them, and the activity. Why run in army boots? It’s slower, more painful, and puts you at a greater risk of injury. So is using a board that doesn’t suit you.
Try a few UL boards. You’ll see what I mean.
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Mr. Proper, would you also try the new 14x21.5 RS when it comes out? I am curious how it would perform in flat water.
Surely I will try it out of curiosity. But I will definitely not buy it. Even the 14x23 could be too narrow for me. At least the recommended maximum riders weight I'm already over it. Therefore, more for my wife ;-)
The 14x24.5, is too similar to the 14x26, so the 14x23 could be nice.
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But I guess that everyone needs to exceed their limits in order to find out where their limits are. So why not get one? If you are very young, very light, or very talented, you’ll have no problem on it at all. Or if you are a very determined, wobbly oldster who paddles alone in sheltered water, you might also get away with it. If however none of these things apply to you, you may want to take a deep breath before ordering.
I will surely try it out if I get the chance, maybe after spending a substantial amount of time on a 14x23 RS first. But before that, it would be interesting to know other people's experiences. :)
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Mr. Proper, would you also try the new 14x21.5 RS when it comes out? I am curious how it would perform in flat water.
Surely I will try it out of curiosity. But I will definitely not buy it. Even the 14x23 could be too narrow for me. At least the recommended maximum riders weight I'm already over it. Therefore, more for my wife ;-)
The 14x24.5, is too similar to the 14x26, so the 14x23 could be nice.
The guy who let me paddle his 14x23 RS also mentioned that he is a few kgs too heavy for it. He is about 190cm and 85kg as I gauge.
BTW what is the maximum rider weight for the 14x23 RS? I could not find it on the official site.
https://www.storesicmaui.com/boards/displacement-hull/14-0-rs-x23-0.html (https://www.storesicmaui.com/boards/displacement-hull/14-0-rs-x23-0.html)
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Answer from BIC:
"We advertise 195Lbs/88.4kg MAX Rider Weight for the 14 x 23" and this is at a high skill level. For the 14 x 24.5" we advertise 220Lbs/99.8kg. If they are not as skilled you should air to the larger size for recreational paddler"
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Do you really need 23” wide? I’ve had boards that are 23, 24.5, 25 and 26 wide (as well as 27, 28,29, 30, 31 and 32!) and I didn’t really feel much gain going from 24.5 to 23. If you have wide shoulders it is diminishing returns after a while. I reckon much of the advantage of going narrower comes from the ease of getting a good stroke, rather than the decrease in drag. Of course, if however you have quite narrow shoulders (and especially if you are also short) then going narrow is really important. So a lot of it depends on your build, not just your weight, I suspect.
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In case you mean me... no I don't need a 23 board, because I'm 195 cm and 92 kg.
But I'm sure that a 23 board is faster than a 26 board. But I'm not sure, if _I_ will be faster on a 23 board. Maybe next week I can try the 23 RS for a longer session und then I will see.
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In case you mean me... no I don't need a 23 board, because I'm 195 cm and 92 kg.
But I'm sure that a 23 board is faster than a 26 board. But I'm not sure, if _I_ will be faster on a 23 board. Maybe next week I can try the 23 RS for a longer session und then I will see.
Well I was amazed to find that I was quite a bit faster on a 14x25 Sidewinder in pure flat water than a 14x23 one, and I’m a fair bit lighter than you. The 23 *felt* faster. But it wasn’t, for me. Narrow board require a very narrow stance, or you are injecting rail steer all the time. So it depends how the mechanics of your body work with a narrow stance. On the 23 I felt like I was depressing the rails too much through the stroke. This is no doubt my failure to develop a really smooth and technical stroke. But it may provide another reason (apart from volume) why some people are slower on narrower boards, beyond a certain point, and then only on some designs (ie. because rail shape will alter a lot the effect of depressing a rail).
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In the last two days I was able to test the RS 14x23 extensively. Unfortunately not in flat conditions, but in wind and wave. Wind was initially about 4 bft, on the second day a little less. The waves during the first day were big enough to get some nice glides.
The board is very stable for me, as long as the waves are not exactly from the side. From the front, back, diagonal, no problem. Side waves reduce my speed massively, because then I have to brace a lot, so as not to fall into the water.
It feels really light compared to a 14x24.5 or 14x26. Accelerates well. I think for flat water it will be a good board for me.
I have tested the 14x24.5 under the same conditions, but it is too similar to the 14x26.
As a one for all solution I would take the 14x24.5. But since I already have the 14x26, the 14x23 will be a good addition for flat conditions.
I order as soon as the Nelo is sold.
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mr_proper, you're working your way through a bunch of boards. Good to have that experience.
Has anyone tried the new Sidewinder V2?
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In the last two days I was able to test the RS 14x23 extensively. Unfortunately not in flat conditions, but in wind and wave. Wind was initially about 4 bft, on the second day a little less. The waves during the first day were big enough to get some nice glides.
The board is very stable for me, as long as the waves are not exactly from the side. From the front, back, diagonal, no problem. Side waves reduce my speed massively, because then I have to brace a lot, so as not to fall into the water.
It feels really light compared to a 14x24.5 or 14x26. Accelerates well. I think for flat water it will be a good board for me.
I have tested the 14x24.5 under the same conditions, but it is too similar to the 14x26.
As a one for all solution I would take the 14x24.5. But since I already have the 14x26, the 14x23 will be a good addition for flat conditions.
I order as soon as the Nelo is sold.
Thanks a lot Mr. Proper. It is great to know that the board has enough volume and is stable enough for you. Now I am even more looking forward to the 21.5" version. :) I also found it unbelievably light in my hands.
BTW, a retailer told me that the RS 14'x23" will not be deliverable till Sep 20. Is the situation similar in Austria?
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In the last two days I was able to test the RS 14x23 extensively. Unfortunately not in flat conditions, but in wind and wave. Wind was initially about 4 bft, on the second day a little less. The waves during the first day were big enough to get some nice glides.
The board is very stable for me, as long as the waves are not exactly from the side. From the front, back, diagonal, no problem. Side waves reduce my speed massively, because then I have to brace a lot, so as not to fall into the water.
It feels really light compared to a 14x24.5 or 14x26. Accelerates well. I think for flat water it will be a good board for me.
I have tested the 14x24.5 under the same conditions, but it is too similar to the 14x26.
As a one for all solution I would take the 14x24.5. But since I already have the 14x26, the 14x23 will be a good addition for flat conditions.
I order as soon as the Nelo is sold.
Thanks a lot Mr. Proper. It is great to know that the board has enough volume and is stable enough for you. Now I am even more looking forward to the 21.5" version. :) I also found it unbelievably light in my hands.
BTW, a retailer told me that the RS 14'x23" will not be deliverable till Sep 20. Is the situation similar in Austria?
A friend ordered one last week and will get it October / November 18.
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mr_proper, you're working your way through a bunch of boards. Good to have that experience.
Has anyone tried the new Sidewinder V2?
Yes, I’ve paddled the Sidewinder V2 in flat water. It’s a very different board from the V1, a much more complex shape. They’ve dropped the deck slightly too. Overall it feels a bit like a Maliko perhaps (which is a good thing), but with a bit more volume. A bit more tippy than a Maliko of equivalent width perhaps, but I’d need to try them back to back to be sure. It feels quite light and reactive and glides nicely in flat water. I’m general I think the makeover has probably been a success (and the original 14x25 Sidewinder was a good board to start with). I think that maybe at the very top end it might not be quite there with the Maliko, but it is possible from what I hear that it is at least as good downwind and in surf- I‘ll have to try it and find out. The Sidewinder V2s are lovely looking boards and the fit and finish and general construction puts Naish to shame.
Definitely worth trying.
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A friend ordered one last week and will get it October / November 18.
I see. Seems to be currently out of stock in Europe.
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A friend ordered one last week and will get it October / November 18.
I see. Seems to be currently out of stock in Europe.
Where you come from?
Maybe it's worth it to ask here: https://www.supshop24-7.com (Michael Frosch)
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Area, can you tell the difference between the V1 and V2 (both in 14') by its look? Is this bluish board
http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png (http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png)
V1 and this grayish one
http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png (http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png)
V2?
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A friend ordered one last week and will get it October / November 18.
I see. Seems to be currently out of stock in Europe.
Where you come from?
Maybe it's worth it to ask here: https://www.supshop24-7.com (Michael Frosch)
Thanks for the tip. I contacted a local retailer near Munich.
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A friend ordered one last week and will get it October / November 18.
I see. Seems to be currently out of stock in Europe.
Where you come from?
Maybe it's worth it to ask here: https://www.supshop24-7.com (Michael Frosch)
Thanks for the tip. I contacted a local retailer near Munich.
Munich, my old home ;-)
Contact Michael. I‘m sure he can organize a board.
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Area, can you tell the difference between the V1 and V2 (both in 14') by its look? Is this bluish board
http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png (http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png)
V1 and this grayish one
http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png (http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png)
V2?
No they are both V1s, I think. The V2s look more different in the flesh than they do in the pictures. and have a channel in the bottom:
https://www.jlid-surfstore.com/product/new-sidewinder/
.
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Munich, my old home ;-)
Contact Michael. I‘m sure he can organize a board.
:-)
Saw your Nelo on SUP 24/7. Good luck with the resell. :)
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Area, can you tell the difference between the V1 and V2 (both in 14') by its look? Is this bluish board
http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png (http://www.jimmylewis.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Sidewinder-14-top-1019x1024.png)
V1 and this grayish one
http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png (http://jimmylewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sidewinder-Red-Top.png)
V2?
No they are both V1s, I think. The V2s look more different in the flesh than they do in the pictures. and have a channel in the bottom:
https://www.jlid-surfstore.com/product/new-sidewinder/
I see. Thanks for the explanation. Funny that the distributor's site is more updated than the producer's.
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Thanks, A10.
I'd like to hear your feedback of the Sidewinder V2 vs your RS.
Both seem to have some rocker which is making a comeback for falt/allwater boards.
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Thanks, A10.
I'd like to hear your feedback of the Sidewinder V2 vs your RS.
Both seem to have some rocker which is making a comeback for falt/allwater boards.
IMO outside of glass, a bit of rocker makes paddling all the more enjoyable.
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Thanks, A10.
I'd like to hear your feedback of the Sidewinder V2 vs your RS.
Both seem to have some rocker which is making a comeback for falt/allwater boards.
I paddled the RS 14x26 alongside the 14x25 Sidewinder 2 in flat water. The RS feels a much bigger board, and in terms of stability it felt like an aircraft carrier next to the Sidewinder. In general I think the Sidewinders are best for lighter riders, whereas heavier ones will feel more at home on the RS. I didnt have a chance to do any formal speed testing of the two. For me, it felt like there might be a slight top end limit with the Sidewinder that I don’t get with the RS. But I’d really need more time in it to be sure. Certainly, when I initially jumped on the Sidewinder I was struck by how light and reactive it felt. The owner maintained that it is very good DW and feels relatively more stable in chop. I can believe it. So I really need to take the Sidewinder 2 out in the ocean. The proper comparison would in any case be between the 14x24.5 RS and the 14x25 Sidewinder. The 14x26 RS should probably be compared to the 14x27 Sidewinder to be a fair comparison - it’s hard to assess boards that are not of comparable stability.