Author Topic: Progress, revelations and musings  (Read 7837 times)

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Progress, revelations and musings
« on: February 05, 2023, 03:32:41 AM »
Hi Guys, My 1300 Alien front wing is fully printed.  The 1150 is printing now and the 1000 is waiting in the...its waiting.  In the images, the parts are raw, not yet sanded and are press fit with the carbon join rods.  My 1300 is shown below with an Axis 1310 for reference (I am stoked to try that wing as well).  I have been having a blast with this project.  So many revelations.  Through internal ribbing and the carbon joinery I am really pleased with the strength, weight and stiffness that is possible. 

It makes me certain that an alternate mass production method is inevitable for foils.  Using newer compound materials and existing mass produced carbon products for joinery and fuselage, a whole new world of possibilities open up and could be done for a fraction of current prices (few hundred bucks for wings and a fuse). 

I have two alternate wingtips designed for each of these three wings so the pictured 1300, for instance, could be tipped as a 920, or 1070 as well. 

I have reworked the hub as well, so the latest version has a carbon ferrule system for the fuselage so that the joint and support is now solid carbon.  Again, all done from inexpensive mass produced carbon parts. 

Almost all of the weight will now be centered under the mast which excites me in terms of overall rig balance. 

Thanks for looking!













« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 03:06:41 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2023, 12:22:21 PM »
Tres slick dude. Do I understand correctly--you're using an inserted carbon rod for the ferrule? Probably 15MM? How are you preventing that from interfering with the mast? I'm doing two splayed 5mm rods in my ferrule that just miss the mast and continue into the wing root. Of course, I screwed up and the rods interfere with the wing rods, but I needed to change that anyway.

I also suspect that Adrian is right about having the mast so far forwards, but we'll see, eh? I know I don't care for the super short Axis masts, but a lot of folks do.

I've gone back to basics and I"m slogging my way through all of PDO academy's lessons on F360. I'm making progress, and it's put a damper on the "three steps forward, two back" approach I've been taking, if only because I don't have as much time to screw up on my own. But I think I'll be tanned, rested and ready when I get back to the PNW.

Right now though, the wind is howling, so fuck this Fusion 360 shit.

Oh, and I demo'ed the 1310. Not my favorite. I tried but didn't buy.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 12:30:33 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surfcowboy

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2023, 10:14:15 PM »
This is really cool to see this come together guys. Imagine if you two had F360 help? I love that you just winged this. (Sorry, I had to.)

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2023, 03:42:37 AM »
Hah!  I am just happy that we will have rideable prototypes when the water warms.  I am hoping to have these three wingsets ready for first sessions by then.   I also have the three big Axis wings here (1300, 1310, 1150) so we can back to back with those (and so we will have something to ride when we are breaking things).

I plan to keep things modular so we can mess around with alternate hubs and wingtips for each design.  On this 1300 for instance, I have an alternate hub saved which has the mastwell back 1.5 inches.  Nothing else changes, so we can really test yaw effects, etc.  This 1300 also looks really cool to me as a lower aspect 1070 with a wingtip change.  Full modularity is possible.  That didn't occur to me until I got further into the project.  But after feeling the parts and assembling them, I had one of those "holy shit" chuckles.

It is clear that this is not going to be a Mission Accomplished project.  It will likely take a lot of iterations and failures but I see a path to really interesting things. 

These Fuselages range from $14.00 to about $30.00 paying retail for the carbon tubes.  You could have a full carbon fuselage set at various lengths that costs $80.00 and fits in a flute bag.
It is clear that tail wings for a system like this are single-shot injectable in cutting edge materials in a mass production environment and could sell for $50-75.
The front wings will also be injectable and could remain modular with the correct design.  One wing becomes 3 wings (with options). 
Compete foil kits (front wing, rear wing and fuselages - all with options) could easily retail at $300.00 to $400.00.

**Consider bayonet mount section joining/tensioning rods accessible by allen key twist from within the mast well.  We could have adhesive free joining.  I have this working in Fusion right now with two tensioning rods and 3 carbon join tubes and it is entirely possible.

Because it is possible, I see all of that as a foregone conclusion.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 06:51:57 AM by Admin »

m_the_foiler

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2023, 07:33:39 AM »
Admin,
Very nice progress indeed. The wing looks slick. Iíve been following your adventure since inception and itís inspiring.
From your conclusions about modularity I conclude that you will leave the wing as is and not wrap it in carbon. Iím really curious how this works out in practice. Where will you be testing it?

On the technical side: what printer did you use? And what material for printing? Iím debating whether to just rent printing time somewhere or buy a printer myself. Something Iíve been wanting to do for a while now but never did. How would your design compare (modularity aside) if you had had a g10 block machined with CNC? Do you know if weight/strength might have been different?
Cabrinha Code 65L
Armstrong 85/60/HS1250/HA1125/HA925/HA195/HS232

surfcowboy

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2023, 09:30:32 PM »
Bambu X1 Carbon is the printer. The materials are unclear to me as there have been many discussed but some form of carbon impregnated filament. Admin where did y'all land with that?

jondrums

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 10:13:08 PM »
The wing looks totally awesome!  I hope it flies well.

How many carbon arrow shafts are used for structure?  Have you tried placing them between two chairs and standing on them?  I reckon that's about how much force will be on them and you'll get a feel for whether they will be strong enough and stiff enough.  I'm quite certain you could place any foil wing between two chairs and stand on it without any problem, but I'm not sure I would stand on a couple of arrow shafts the same way

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2023, 01:00:49 AM »
Hi guys,

Jon, Agreed.  Strength is a huge issue.  In the images above I am using three 15 mm carbon "rods" for the hub to first section connection.  I am using 12 mm for the next section.  Both are tubes with thick walls and have a tube at the next size down epoxied inside (that is not going to be necessary).  This is full overkill and you could brace them between 2x4's and jump on them, although it may hurt your feet :).  Carbon arrow shafts are 4-6mm and are hollow and thin walled so we are really talking about a world of strength difference there. I just got a new shipment of Carbon tubes and rods which prompted the configuration above.  I am going to rework all of this until it is optimized.   Strength to weight, it has to be right.

m, as the Cowboy mentioned, this is the BambuLabs X1 Carbon.  I have only been using the PA-CF filament which is a really sweet blend of carbon shards and two long chain Polyamides (PA 6 and PA 12).  This stuff is named Carbon for Zoot value but it is its own thing. 

I will be testing these here in the Gorge when the weather warms.  I am planning on keeping things modular.  That path has just readjusted my focus.  It is going to happen and I want to do it. 

In terms of buying a printer, that is a great question.  For me, the technology, first with VR design software (stunning) and then with this printer was a major draw.  I mentioned it above but I have loved this project and I have learned (and am learning) so much.  Foils aside, I wanted to be more a part of those things now.  I would let that be your qualifier.  If you love playing with really cool stuff and seeing what it can do, yes!  You will be awed and inspired.  If the goal is to ride a foil of your design without a lot of fiddling, I would pass for now. The Bambu Labs guys have really produced a marvel.   Bill suggested it to me and it was a great suggestion.  Here is a caveat.  Printing in carbon (as above) is the draw.  The printer comes ready for doing that with relatively easy use for smaller parts.  That all changes when you want to print a front wing.  That is possible but you will endure great frustration.  I almost took mine to the rage room many days.  You are going to rebuild your machine a lot.  You will need a larger hot end and there are no usable presets for that nozzle.  For some reason they give 8 awesome presets for the stock nozzle (which they don't suggest) , and none for the suggested (and required) nozzle.

This is all still very much a work in progress.  Cool (to me) that we will be riding our own foil designs (fronts, fuses and tails) this summer.  I look at this stuff evolving on my table and I love it.  It has me at the pool 3-4 days a week trying to be ready.  I am filled with ideas and plans, and what price tag can you put on that?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 01:15:32 AM by Admin »

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2023, 01:26:33 AM »
I am super interested in this modularity concept.  I can't help but thinking this is where we should be.  We will need to go about it differently than sailplanes but the broad strokes are the same.



« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 01:28:06 AM by Admin »

jondrums

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2023, 08:31:04 AM »
awesome - yes 15mm shafts should be so much stronger than arrow shafts!

sounds like you are using really strong plastic for the print, which is great.  It will be key to get an excellent joint between each section so the plastic segments transfer load to each other on the face. 

You may be surprised to find out that you can't just grab some epoxy and glue the parts together.  Well you can, but it is incredibly unlikely that it will be a strong joint.  It is common to try out a range of different adhesives on coupons and pull them each apart.  What you're looking for is a bond stronger than the base plastic.  If it pulls apart cleanly on one or the other face, that's not so good.  If it breaks and leaves adhesive stuck to both faces that's a winner.

It is also typical to glue up a bunch of coupons with different glues - then expose to intended environment - then do a pull test.  for this project, I would suggest putting the coupons under salt water for about 3 days or so.  I'm guessing after about 3 days of soaking they'll have taken up all the water they will.  Water is hell on glue joints and can often ruin the bond if its not the right type of glue.

If you want to shortcut this process, there are engineers who have detailed knowledge on which glue is best for which material.   They typically work on the sales team of glue companies such as Henkel/Loctite, 3M, Lord, Dow, etc.   But the details require intimate knowledge of EXACTLY what the material is.  It isn't good enough to say plastic, or even to say ABS plastic.  There are so many little variable that matter.  Sometimes even the color pigment in the plastic can be the difference.  Another example is whether the plastic has a UV stabilizer or not.  In my experience, the trials above are still run on a few candidates and there are always surprises during this process!

Sorry for the long post, I hope it might help!

lanikaipaddler

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2023, 12:49:55 AM »
ĎI am filled with ideas and plans, and what price tag can you put on that?Ď

Amen!
Ben

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2023, 04:09:14 AM »
awesome - yes 15mm shafts should be so much stronger than arrow shafts!

sounds like you are using really strong plastic for the print, which is great.  It will be key to get an excellent joint between each section so the plastic segments transfer load to each other on the face. 

You may be surprised to find out that you can't just grab some epoxy and glue the parts together.  Well you can, but it is incredibly unlikely that it will be a strong joint.  It is common to try out a range of different adhesives on coupons and pull them each apart.  What you're looking for is a bond stronger than the base plastic.  If it pulls apart cleanly on one or the other face, that's not so good.  If it breaks and leaves adhesive stuck to both faces that's a winner.

It is also typical to glue up a bunch of coupons with different glues - then expose to intended environment - then do a pull test.  for this project, I would suggest putting the coupons under salt water for about 3 days or so.  I'm guessing after about 3 days of soaking they'll have taken up all the water they will.  Water is hell on glue joints and can often ruin the bond if its not the right type of glue.

If you want to shortcut this process, there are engineers who have detailed knowledge on which glue is best for which material.   They typically work on the sales team of glue companies such as Henkel/Loctite, 3M, Lord, Dow, etc.   But the details require intimate knowledge of EXACTLY what the material is.  It isn't good enough to say plastic, or even to say ABS plastic.  There are so many little variable that matter.  Sometimes even the color pigment in the plastic can be the difference.  Another example is whether the plastic has a UV stabilizer or not.  In my experience, the trials above are still run on a few candidates and there are always surprises during this process!

Sorry for the long post, I hope it might help!

Not at all.  This is a great post and I definitely appreciate the input.  I had a similar thought back here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,38317.msg439073.html#msg439073 .   I wrote,  "I also spent a few hours talking to various bonding solution mfg's and have a bunch of samples coming to test the adhesives which they are suggesting for our specific plastic to CF for this use."
 Just like you noted, those guys were really helpful.  One was very familiar with our plastic blend and had even helped a reseller who carried a competing product.  I ordered five (hah!) possible soultions and have them here.  One of them is kind of surprising to me but I am trying to suspend any judgement until we get in the river.  :). Of course, they all look great glued up on a workbench, but...

The question isn't will we break stuff, it is will the part be lost to the depths!

BUT...that was before I had the front wing fully printed.   Sometimes I need something in hand to understand it and see other directions.  When I stuck a premade carbon tube through the center three foil sections, I said, holy shit!  It just feels awesome, even with that one press fit tube!  That is 25 inches of Rock Solid wing.  I would venture that this central joined span is much stronger than any existing carbon wing.  Picture a Carbon Mountain Bike handlebar within your wing and then two more at reduced dimensions.  It is pretty silly :).


Now, how best to leave that modular?  The best lightweight solution that will draw those three sections together without adhesive.  I have a lot of ideas ranging from conventional to bizarre. 



« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 04:43:57 AM by Admin »

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2023, 10:03:52 AM »
Here are the internals of the printed 1300 Alien wing I posted yesterday.  The rods pictured as carbon are actually tubes with 3 and 4 mm walls.  The pegs pictured in grey are 6 mm solid carbon.  All of the tubes and rods are mass produced, readily available, cheap stuff.  This is how it can all remain modular for hub changes, wingtip changes and size changes.  Fuse length can easily be changed as can tail wings for both size and angle.
 Thanks again!






PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2023, 10:19:56 AM »
For what it's worth, most people gluing nylon use two-part polyurethane adhesives which flex similarly to Nylon. Of course, that's mostly straight nylon, not PA-CF. It's also fairly common to use crazy glue (methyl cyanoacrylate, or ethyl if we can get some--it's supposed to be better for plastics), though they tend to age poorly. The advantage of thin glues is that they can wick into the surface to create a stronger mechanical bond. The guy at EZ composites once mentioned combining crazy glue and two-part poly, which seems weird but might be worth a try. Epoxies are generally NOT used because they are less flexible than the base nylon. For straight PA, I've seen recommendations that the parts be annealed, or at least baked for a while at 60C or better. That probably pertains more to molded or machined nylon that might have slip agents added--baking pushes them to the surface where they can be washed off with IPA, but I plan to anneal the parts anyway so I won't need to add a step, just wash well. 


I plan to use industrial hot glue to hold the wing sections rather than some kind of bayonet, clip, or cross pin. Any of those would introduce streamlining complexities without some fairly exotic design work. And I'd probably break them. A few minutes in the oven and hot-glued stuff slides apart, but when set the glue is very strong in tension. It's not so strong in shear, but with reinforcing rods we shouldn't have to worry about shear forces anyway. The stuff we used for Ke Nalu paddles was crazy strong, but even the cheap hardware store stuff is pretty decent, and Gorilla makes a very strong hot glue that is readily available.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 10:46:09 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2023, 10:38:10 AM »
How do you plan to deal with anhedral or other Z axis variations? Short sections of reinforcement? I figured on trying that with overlap of the rods, but for any significant amount of anhedral, the sections need to be very short. I'm taking the lazy approach by doing flat wings with Anhedral only in the tips.

How did you get the top layer so smooth? I've been doing a lot of tuning trying to get the .6MM extruder to work well. I keep dialing back the extruder temp and slowing the fans to reduce the blobs, but it ain't pretty yet. It's easy to get a nice top layer with the factory settings for .4, but as you know, they don't translate, and it hard to get a large piece to print without clogs. I've printed a number of temperature test forms in PA-CF, and it looks like the recommended temps are too high, but the test thingies are small. I've tweaked retraction (longer) and that made the blobbing and hickies worse. I'm going to create a test piece for variable retraction, probably just a first-layer thing.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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