Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Admin on February 05, 2023, 03:32:41 AM
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Hi Guys, My 1300 Alien front wing is fully printed. The 1150 is printing now and the 1000 is waiting in the...its waiting. In the images, the parts are raw, not yet sanded and are press fit with the carbon join rods. My 1300 is shown below with an Axis 1310 for reference (I am stoked to try that wing as well). I have been having a blast with this project. So many revelations. Through internal ribbing and the carbon joinery I am really pleased with the strength, weight and stiffness that is possible.
It makes me certain that an alternate mass production method is inevitable for foils. Using newer compound materials and existing mass produced carbon products for joinery and fuselage, a whole new world of possibilities open up and could be done for a fraction of current prices (few hundred bucks for wings and a fuse).
I have two alternate wingtips designed for each of these three wings so the pictured 1300, for instance, could be tipped as a 920, or 1070 as well.
I have reworked the hub as well, so the latest version has a carbon ferrule system for the fuselage so that the joint and support is now solid carbon. Again, all done from inexpensive mass produced carbon parts.
Almost all of the weight will now be centered under the mast which excites me in terms of overall rig balance.
Thanks for looking!
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/1.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/2.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/3.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/4.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/5.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/gorge/gfw/6.jpg)
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Tres slick dude. Do I understand correctly--you're using an inserted carbon rod for the ferrule? Probably 15MM? How are you preventing that from interfering with the mast? I'm doing two splayed 5mm rods in my ferrule that just miss the mast and continue into the wing root. Of course, I screwed up and the rods interfere with the wing rods, but I needed to change that anyway.
I also suspect that Adrian is right about having the mast so far forwards, but we'll see, eh? I know I don't care for the super short Axis masts, but a lot of folks do.
I've gone back to basics and I"m slogging my way through all of PDO academy's lessons on F360. I'm making progress, and it's put a damper on the "three steps forward, two back" approach I've been taking, if only because I don't have as much time to screw up on my own. But I think I'll be tanned, rested and ready when I get back to the PNW.
Right now though, the wind is howling, so fuck this Fusion 360 shit.
Oh, and I demo'ed the 1310. Not my favorite. I tried but didn't buy.
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This is really cool to see this come together guys. Imagine if you two had F360 help? I love that you just winged this. (Sorry, I had to.)
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Hah! I am just happy that we will have rideable prototypes when the water warms. I am hoping to have these three wingsets ready for first sessions by then. I also have the three big Axis wings here (1300, 1310, 1150) so we can back to back with those (and so we will have something to ride when we are breaking things).
I plan to keep things modular so we can mess around with alternate hubs and wingtips for each design. On this 1300 for instance, I have an alternate hub saved which has the mastwell back 1.5 inches. Nothing else changes, so we can really test yaw effects, etc. This 1300 also looks really cool to me as a lower aspect 1070 with a wingtip change. Full modularity is possible. That didn't occur to me until I got further into the project. But after feeling the parts and assembling them, I had one of those "holy shit" chuckles.
It is clear that this is not going to be a Mission Accomplished project. It will likely take a lot of iterations and failures but I see a path to really interesting things.
These Fuselages range from $14.00 to about $30.00 paying retail for the carbon tubes. You could have a full carbon fuselage set at various lengths that costs $80.00 and fits in a flute bag.
It is clear that tail wings for a system like this are single-shot injectable in cutting edge materials in a mass production environment and could sell for $50-75.
The front wings will also be injectable and could remain modular with the correct design. One wing becomes 3 wings (with options).
Compete foil kits (front wing, rear wing and fuselages - all with options) could easily retail at $300.00 to $400.00.
**Consider bayonet mount section joining/tensioning rods accessible by allen key twist from within the mast well. We could have adhesive free joining. I have this working in Fusion right now with two tensioning rods and 3 carbon join tubes and it is entirely possible.
Because it is possible, I see all of that as a foregone conclusion.
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Admin,
Very nice progress indeed. The wing looks slick. I’ve been following your adventure since inception and it’s inspiring.
From your conclusions about modularity I conclude that you will leave the wing as is and not wrap it in carbon. I’m really curious how this works out in practice. Where will you be testing it?
On the technical side: what printer did you use? And what material for printing? I’m debating whether to just rent printing time somewhere or buy a printer myself. Something I’ve been wanting to do for a while now but never did. How would your design compare (modularity aside) if you had had a g10 block machined with CNC? Do you know if weight/strength might have been different?
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Bambu X1 Carbon is the printer. The materials are unclear to me as there have been many discussed but some form of carbon impregnated filament. Admin where did y'all land with that?
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The wing looks totally awesome! I hope it flies well.
How many carbon arrow shafts are used for structure? Have you tried placing them between two chairs and standing on them? I reckon that's about how much force will be on them and you'll get a feel for whether they will be strong enough and stiff enough. I'm quite certain you could place any foil wing between two chairs and stand on it without any problem, but I'm not sure I would stand on a couple of arrow shafts the same way
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Hi guys,
Jon, Agreed. Strength is a huge issue. In the images above I am using three 15 mm carbon "rods" for the hub to first section connection. I am using 12 mm for the next section. Both are tubes with thick walls and have a tube at the next size down epoxied inside (that is not going to be necessary). This is full overkill and you could brace them between 2x4's and jump on them, although it may hurt your feet :). Carbon arrow shafts are 4-6mm and are hollow and thin walled so we are really talking about a world of strength difference there. I just got a new shipment of Carbon tubes and rods which prompted the configuration above. I am going to rework all of this until it is optimized. Strength to weight, it has to be right.
m, as the Cowboy mentioned, this is the BambuLabs X1 Carbon. I have only been using the PA-CF filament which is a really sweet blend of carbon shards and two long chain Polyamides (PA 6 and PA 12). This stuff is named Carbon for Zoot value but it is its own thing.
I will be testing these here in the Gorge when the weather warms. I am planning on keeping things modular. That path has just readjusted my focus. It is going to happen and I want to do it.
In terms of buying a printer, that is a great question. For me, the technology, first with VR design software (stunning) and then with this printer was a major draw. I mentioned it above but I have loved this project and I have learned (and am learning) so much. Foils aside, I wanted to be more a part of those things now. I would let that be your qualifier. If you love playing with really cool stuff and seeing what it can do, yes! You will be awed and inspired. If the goal is to ride a foil of your design without a lot of fiddling, I would pass for now. The Bambu Labs guys have really produced a marvel. Bill suggested it to me and it was a great suggestion. Here is a caveat. Printing in carbon (as above) is the draw. The printer comes ready for doing that with relatively easy use for smaller parts. That all changes when you want to print a front wing. That is possible but you will endure great frustration. I almost took mine to the rage room many days. You are going to rebuild your machine a lot. You will need a larger hot end and there are no usable presets for that nozzle. For some reason they give 8 awesome presets for the stock nozzle (which they don't suggest) , and none for the suggested (and required) nozzle.
This is all still very much a work in progress. Cool (to me) that we will be riding our own foil designs (fronts, fuses and tails) this summer. I look at this stuff evolving on my table and I love it. It has me at the pool 3-4 days a week trying to be ready. I am filled with ideas and plans, and what price tag can you put on that?
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I am super interested in this modularity concept. I can't help but thinking this is where we should be. We will need to go about it differently than sailplanes but the broad strokes are the same.
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awesome - yes 15mm shafts should be so much stronger than arrow shafts!
sounds like you are using really strong plastic for the print, which is great. It will be key to get an excellent joint between each section so the plastic segments transfer load to each other on the face.
You may be surprised to find out that you can't just grab some epoxy and glue the parts together. Well you can, but it is incredibly unlikely that it will be a strong joint. It is common to try out a range of different adhesives on coupons and pull them each apart. What you're looking for is a bond stronger than the base plastic. If it pulls apart cleanly on one or the other face, that's not so good. If it breaks and leaves adhesive stuck to both faces that's a winner.
It is also typical to glue up a bunch of coupons with different glues - then expose to intended environment - then do a pull test. for this project, I would suggest putting the coupons under salt water for about 3 days or so. I'm guessing after about 3 days of soaking they'll have taken up all the water they will. Water is hell on glue joints and can often ruin the bond if its not the right type of glue.
If you want to shortcut this process, there are engineers who have detailed knowledge on which glue is best for which material. They typically work on the sales team of glue companies such as Henkel/Loctite, 3M, Lord, Dow, etc. But the details require intimate knowledge of EXACTLY what the material is. It isn't good enough to say plastic, or even to say ABS plastic. There are so many little variable that matter. Sometimes even the color pigment in the plastic can be the difference. Another example is whether the plastic has a UV stabilizer or not. In my experience, the trials above are still run on a few candidates and there are always surprises during this process!
Sorry for the long post, I hope it might help!
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‘I am filled with ideas and plans, and what price tag can you put on that?‘
Amen!
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awesome - yes 15mm shafts should be so much stronger than arrow shafts!
sounds like you are using really strong plastic for the print, which is great. It will be key to get an excellent joint between each section so the plastic segments transfer load to each other on the face.
You may be surprised to find out that you can't just grab some epoxy and glue the parts together. Well you can, but it is incredibly unlikely that it will be a strong joint. It is common to try out a range of different adhesives on coupons and pull them each apart. What you're looking for is a bond stronger than the base plastic. If it pulls apart cleanly on one or the other face, that's not so good. If it breaks and leaves adhesive stuck to both faces that's a winner.
It is also typical to glue up a bunch of coupons with different glues - then expose to intended environment - then do a pull test. for this project, I would suggest putting the coupons under salt water for about 3 days or so. I'm guessing after about 3 days of soaking they'll have taken up all the water they will. Water is hell on glue joints and can often ruin the bond if its not the right type of glue.
If you want to shortcut this process, there are engineers who have detailed knowledge on which glue is best for which material. They typically work on the sales team of glue companies such as Henkel/Loctite, 3M, Lord, Dow, etc. But the details require intimate knowledge of EXACTLY what the material is. It isn't good enough to say plastic, or even to say ABS plastic. There are so many little variable that matter. Sometimes even the color pigment in the plastic can be the difference. Another example is whether the plastic has a UV stabilizer or not. In my experience, the trials above are still run on a few candidates and there are always surprises during this process!
Sorry for the long post, I hope it might help!
Not at all. This is a great post and I definitely appreciate the input. I had a similar thought back here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,38317.msg439073.html#msg439073 . I wrote, "I also spent a few hours talking to various bonding solution mfg's and have a bunch of samples coming to test the adhesives which they are suggesting for our specific plastic to CF for this use."
Just like you noted, those guys were really helpful. One was very familiar with our plastic blend and had even helped a reseller who carried a competing product. I ordered five (hah!) possible soultions and have them here. One of them is kind of surprising to me but I am trying to suspend any judgement until we get in the river. :). Of course, they all look great glued up on a workbench, but...
The question isn't will we break stuff, it is will the part be lost to the depths!
BUT...that was before I had the front wing fully printed. Sometimes I need something in hand to understand it and see other directions. When I stuck a premade carbon tube through the center three foil sections, I said, holy shit! It just feels awesome, even with that one press fit tube! That is 25 inches of Rock Solid wing. I would venture that this central joined span is much stronger than any existing carbon wing. Picture a Carbon Mountain Bike handlebar within your wing and then two more at reduced dimensions. It is pretty silly :).
Now, how best to leave that modular? The best lightweight solution that will draw those three sections together without adhesive. I have a lot of ideas ranging from conventional to bizarre.
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Here are the internals of the printed 1300 Alien wing I posted yesterday. The rods pictured as carbon are actually tubes with 3 and 4 mm walls. The pegs pictured in grey are 6 mm solid carbon. All of the tubes and rods are mass produced, readily available, cheap stuff. This is how it can all remain modular for hub changes, wingtip changes and size changes. Fuse length can easily be changed as can tail wings for both size and angle.
Thanks again!
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329249766_575494857806284_8079119673862533041_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=XfLgzWrU8mcAX-bbbpR&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfC9SWDgjKbEBM_crCqoQSsWzDA7qvvpS_hJvrFiWkwMHQ&oe=63E85834)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329448796_590182302927128_502780905793270921_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=bRtnY-nFeuAAX_aAUHa&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfAlCpXsxa0mijyr9vKZSmmEcKo20GvPOL2GsYXq6q1y4Q&oe=63E90483)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329380843_1981584528885950_6810091572453833895_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=VR7GIEIar3MAX_0y6WK&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfCBJ2XLfhroTn8wK7Es2FQmH0XHs-htta7Oo9nTAdGzgA&oe=63E9BF62)
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For what it's worth, most people gluing nylon use two-part polyurethane adhesives which flex similarly to Nylon. Of course, that's mostly straight nylon, not PA-CF. It's also fairly common to use crazy glue (methyl cyanoacrylate, or ethyl if we can get some--it's supposed to be better for plastics), though they tend to age poorly. The advantage of thin glues is that they can wick into the surface to create a stronger mechanical bond. The guy at EZ composites once mentioned combining crazy glue and two-part poly, which seems weird but might be worth a try. Epoxies are generally NOT used because they are less flexible than the base nylon. For straight PA, I've seen recommendations that the parts be annealed, or at least baked for a while at 60C or better. That probably pertains more to molded or machined nylon that might have slip agents added--baking pushes them to the surface where they can be washed off with IPA, but I plan to anneal the parts anyway so I won't need to add a step, just wash well.
I plan to use industrial hot glue to hold the wing sections rather than some kind of bayonet, clip, or cross pin. Any of those would introduce streamlining complexities without some fairly exotic design work. And I'd probably break them. A few minutes in the oven and hot-glued stuff slides apart, but when set the glue is very strong in tension. It's not so strong in shear, but with reinforcing rods we shouldn't have to worry about shear forces anyway. The stuff we used for Ke Nalu paddles was crazy strong, but even the cheap hardware store stuff is pretty decent, and Gorilla makes a very strong hot glue that is readily available.
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How do you plan to deal with anhedral or other Z axis variations? Short sections of reinforcement? I figured on trying that with overlap of the rods, but for any significant amount of anhedral, the sections need to be very short. I'm taking the lazy approach by doing flat wings with Anhedral only in the tips.
How did you get the top layer so smooth? I've been doing a lot of tuning trying to get the .6MM extruder to work well. I keep dialing back the extruder temp and slowing the fans to reduce the blobs, but it ain't pretty yet. It's easy to get a nice top layer with the factory settings for .4, but as you know, they don't translate, and it hard to get a large piece to print without clogs. I've printed a number of temperature test forms in PA-CF, and it looks like the recommended temps are too high, but the test thingies are small. I've tweaked retraction (longer) and that made the blobbing and hickies worse. I'm going to create a test piece for variable retraction, probably just a first-layer thing.
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Have you tried placing them between two chairs and standing on them? I reckon that's about how much force will be on them and you'll get a feel for whether they will be strong enough and stiff enough. I'm quite certain you could place any foil wing between two chairs and stand on it without any problem,
This isn't quite fair. Do this test with an axis 1300 and try to get Adrian to warranty you. Remember, a lot of area is under the board, near the mast. That takes a lot of strain off the the structure compared to just two chairs anywhere near the tips. I'd wager half the lift is within a foot of the fuselage.
The beauty of "if it doesn't work" is that the next version is days or hours away. Most print time. If I prototyped a wing I'd give up as each wing would takes hours to shape, laminate and finish. If this sucks the next one is really fast to make.
This is a bold aggressive approach aimed at moving our sport forward at a pace we could only dream of 6 months ago. I'm no longer skeptical. This is far more likely to work than not just due to the ability to iterate before you get tired of it.
And to answer your question. I'd stand on 4 carbon arrows shafts supported in a carbon/plastic hybrid frame without blinking an eye. And I'd risk a $200 quickly replaceable foil wing without concern as well. An $800 DW wing? Nah, I'm worr about that. If you pull back from "the current way is the only way to do this" it really gets exciting. This sport didn't exist a few years ago. Neither did these materials. I'm pulling for this personally.
How do I get on the board of this project? I have a ton of open source experience.
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I don't think anyone is seriously thinking about carbon arrows. There's a huge variety of sizes and wall thicknesses for carbon tubes and rods available that are far stiffer and much cheaper
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I'm going to switch to printing straight PA for a while. I can get a much nicer part and I'm not convinced that the PA-CF will be that much stronger. Most importantly, it prints beautifully with the .4 mm extruder, which seems to have hyper-tuned print settings that I've been unable to duplicate with PA-CF and .6.
I'm going to get in touch with some of the highly experienced 3D printing geeks and see what they suggest.
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It is really cool to nest these tubes within one another for various stiffnesses and weights. That is another layer of modularity. Chan at 115 lbs, does not have the requirement as me at 170 (both of us cruisers) as opposed to a hotshot kid flatlanding 25 footers. Not all bikes need to be downhill or enduro bikes. There is room for gravel grinders and, god forbid, even road bikes. We have the potential to hit many uses in one system.
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Here's my latest effort with telecoping carbon tubes. I'm working on a set of wings and wingtips. The idea is that the doubled and even triple telescoped sections will bridge the junctions and then continue as the wing thickness decreases ad two layers and finally one. The largest tubes are 12mm.
Since the junctions telescope instead of overlapping as I first intended I can use a lot more tubes. So I did.
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OK, that last one was kind of silly. Here's a more rational effort with the mast attachment made a bit more sturdy and raised a bit so some rods and tubes can run under it. A bit more rational distribution of telescoping tubes and rods as well.
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I have the 1150 Alien Wing one part from completely printed now as well (first time through). I am really proud of this one. It is very sleek and refined feeling, and super strong. Each wing presents super interesting design challenges. I am printing each of the seven parts differently. In a mass production environmen this can be reduced to 3 parts. I have good notes on each part so I can keep track of its evolution.
My overlying goal has been: Don't let the modular concept (print-to-ride or modular mass production) steer the form. First and foremost, the end result foil system has to be what I want to see and what I want to ride. That makes the whole process more intricate but hopefully more enduring as well. For instance both of my printed foils have XYZ curves that put hard limits on internal stucture lengths (using mass produced, readily available, cheap carbon products). That requires a lot of thought (and filiment :) ).
A good result is going to require a high degree of printing or production precision for every part. The joints have to be perfect without warping or bow, and the cavities to tube tolerances need to be really tight. Any play in those areas will spoil the soup.
I have read the critiques with interest but after these last prints, I know we are going to change some minds. :).
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I just heard back from Bambu on my open ticket about annealing specifics for their filaments. They wrote that "the best annealing temperature of Bambu PA-CF and PAHT-CF is 120 to 130 ℃." They wrote that 8 hours is suggested. I pushed them for ramps and a more specific schedule because this is still pretty loose. I know that cool down ramps are critical so that parts are not weakened during recrystalization, so I am going to hold off for that info.
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Yes, I really don't care about the modularity, that's for either someone doing this commercially or someone who doesn't own a dozen printers (in varying degrees of usefulness) to worry about. I'm not doing anything about the Z axis yet, but that's refinement. I'll get there.
In the meantime, I have some TPU on the way to print flexible stuff. You can now get specific shore ratings for printable TPU. I'm thinking about integrated soft(er) edges on the wings. The combination of the AMS and relying on internal structure for strength instead of the skin makes this feasible. Of course, I'll also be making a lot of motorcycle parts and better wheels and tires for my robots.
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this is what ChatGPT says our printer settings should be:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer
Nozzle Size: 0.6mm
Print Temperature: 195°C - 205°C
Bed Temperature: 40°C - 50°C
Print Speed: 50 - 80 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 0.7mm
Retraction Speed: 30mm/s
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Infill: 20 - 30%
and this:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings
Nozzle Temperature: 220°C
Print Bed Temperature: 40°C
Print Bed Adhesion: Brim (5-10 outlines)
Print Speed: 30-50 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 4-5 mm
Retraction Speed: 25-30 mm/s
Print Flow: 100-110%
Fan Speed: 0-30%
Cooling: Enabled
We humans are SO fucked.
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I've done a number of automated runs now using the API. I might have to do a paid subscription, this thing is handy. And this is for printing Nylon:
write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings including support
Nozzle size: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Travel Speed: 120mm/s
Temperature: 210°C
Printing Temperature: 190-200°C
Heated Bed Temperature: 40-50°C
Support Material: Yes
Support Material Type: PVA
Support Material Interface Layers: 0.2mm
Support Material Interface Distance: 0.2mm
Support Material Angle Threshold: 60°
Support Material Pattern: Grid
Support Material Z Distance: 0.2mm
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Coasting Distance: 0.2mm
Coasting Speed: 20mm/s
Print Fan Speed: 100%
Bridging Fan Speed: 90%
If I run the queries with a temperature of .8 I get substantial variation in both detail and parameters. All of them look interesting. Of course ChatGPT doesn't really know what a Bambu labs Carbon X1 is since the training terminated in 2021. Interestingly, I get a substantial variation by changing to a Prusa i3 MK3S+
write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle for a Prusa printer using advanced printer settings including support
Nozzle Diameter: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Travel Speed: 80mm/s
Infill: 20%
Perimeters: 3
Top/Bottom Layers: 3
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Angle: 60°
Support Overhang Angle: 45°
Support Z Distance: 0.2mm
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Print Temperature: 230°C
Bed Temperature: 70°C
Print Cooling: Enabled
Bridging Settings: Enabled
Bridging Speed: 20mm/s
Bridging Fan Speed: 100%
write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle and 100 percent infill for a Prusa printer using advanced printer settings including support
Nozzle Diameter: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Print Temperature: 230°C
Bed Temperature: 80°C
Fan Speed: 100%
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Angle: 60°
Support Density: 100%
Support Z Distance: 0.2mm
Support XY Distance: 0.2mm
Brim Width: 0.4mm
Combing Mode: Off
running openai.chat:
Here are the recommended printer settings for printing with PA (Polyamide) filament using a .6mm nozzle and 100% infill on a Prusa printer with advanced printer settings including support:
Nozzle Temperature: 260-290°C
Bed Temperature: 85-100°C
Print Speed: 50-70mm/s
First Layer Speed: 30mm/s
First Layer Height: 150%
First Layer Width: 120%
Number of Perimeters: 4-6
Infill Percentage: 100%
Infill Pattern: Grid or Triangles
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Overhang Angle: 45°
Support Infill Percentage: 20-30%
Support Infill Pattern: Lines
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 35mm/s
Wipe Distance: 1.5mm
Note: These settings are a starting point and you may need to make adjustments based on the specific conditions in your environment and the dimensions of your model. It's recommended to start with a small test print and adjust the settings as needed.
and for the Bambu Labs printer, which I don't think the training period includes:
write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle and 100 percent infill for a Bambu Labs X1 Carbon printer using advanced printer settings including support
Materials: PA filament, .6mm nozzle
Infill: 100%
Nozzle temperature: 220-240°C
Bed temperature: 60-70°C
Layer height: 0.2-0.3mm
Print speed: 50-60mm/s
Travel speed: 120mm/s
Support material: Yes
Support type: Touching build plate
Support overhang angle: 50°
Support density: 20-30%
Support line width: 0.6mm
Support material temperature: 220-240°C
Support material adhesion: Brim or Raft
Printing temperature: 220-240°C
Bridging speed: 30-40mm/s
Bridging flow: 105-110%
Bridging fan speed: 0%
Retraction distance: 3-5mm
Retraction speed: 40mm/s
Retraction minimum travel: 1mm
Retraction lift: 0.2mm
Retraction hop: 0.1mm
Coast at end: 0.5mm
Wipe distance: 0.5mm
Cooling fan speed: 50%
Minimum fan speed: 20%
With these advanced settings, you should get high quality and detailed prints with PA filament on your Bambu Labs X1 Carbon printer. You can also fine-tune these settings according to your preference and the specific filament you are using.
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Oooh, pretty. This is just a test print, for the real thing I'll use a higher percentage of infill--maybe even 100 percent, though I'm not certain it's necessary.
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this is what ChatGPT says our printer settings should be:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer
Nozzle Size: 0.6mm
Print Temperature: 195°C - 205°C
Bed Temperature: 40°C - 50°C
Print Speed: 50 - 80 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 0.7mm
Retraction Speed: 30mm/s
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Infill: 20 - 30%
and this:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings
Nozzle Temperature: 220°C
Print Bed Temperature: 40°C
Print Bed Adhesion: Brim (5-10 outlines)
Print Speed: 30-50 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 4-5 mm
Retraction Speed: 25-30 mm/s
Print Flow: 100-110%
Fan Speed: 0-30%
Cooling: Enabled
We humans are SO fucked.
These are really odd. Both of the print temps are below the melt temps for PA-CF. Bambu has the print temps at 280-290 for PACF.
It looks like Bambu is adding more CF inclusive filaments as well. PAHT_CF and PLA-CF are up on the site now.
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Yeah, Nylon 6 melts at 256C. I'm going to try some of the settings, but I suspect Mr. Chat doesn't really know what PA-CF is, though the verbal summary mentioned Polyamide.
I've confirmed that humidity is my problem, printing here in Bora-Bora is a challenge. I baked my spool of generic PA-CF for 8 hours at 100C in the easy-bake toaster oven (Diane is threatening to replace it) and weighed it. 1385g. Then I stuck it in the AMS with freshly refreshed Silica bags and went winging. When I came back three hours later it weighed 1405g. If the weight difference is accurate, that's 20cc of water, which is astonishing. I thought maybe 10cc would be feasible and went around singing "I'm not in lo-ove, so don't forget it. It's just a silly phase I'm going through..."
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as usual, my most recent test print reveals a host of problems. the major dimensions shrunk exactly as expected and I adjusted for them. The holes are another story. It looks like I need to add another 9 percent to account for shrinkage, as George Costanza said.
The next step is printing in Nylon with 100 percent infill and adjusting all the hole sizes and placement. I'll measure everything as-printed and then anneal it to see how much added shrinkage occurs. And I need to use a different pattern for the top and bottom surfaces. Hilbert Curve perhaps? The monotonic line pattern looks like cheap wood.
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Most of the stuff I've been printing has not precisely turned out to be dimensionally accurate. I know plastic shrinks a bit as it cools, and the printing process can create distortions, but I've been a bit surprised to find the major dimensions of my projects to be accurate, while the holes are universally hosed.
So I spent most of today working on calibrating stuff. No, I'm not a football fan.
The result has me a bit baffled. I expected some predictable percentage of shrink that I could compensate for. So I printed up a plate with holes that I dimensioned in millimeters. Printed one in Polycarbonate, which is one of the most vilified filaments for shrinking and warping, and then measured each hole. I expected some sort of percentage of shrink that I could use as a compensation multiplier. And instead I got this:
Note that I somehow skipped 9mm in making the plate. It basically looks like each hole is roughly .2mm smaller than it should be. I'm baffled.
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I cannot fathom why this isn't linear.
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Heat and moisture, perhaps. There's no control over the temperature in the printing chamber, and the filaments I'm using are hygroscopic. Printing them in Maui (or Bora Bora as Admin likes to call it) is challenging. I'm modifying my Bambu Labs printer to control both.
For the chamber, I'm adding insulation and a thermostatically controlled heater. I'm not going to heat it as much as I can--there are electronics, motors, drive belts, and plastic support parts in or around the chamber. But if it's insulated and heated I can control the temperature at a somewhat higher temperature that won't start making things more complicated rather than less. That means less part warping, better adhesion between the layers, and better tuning. It also means problems with overhangs and shallow angles since the part cooling won't be as effective for keeping bridged and angled areas from slumping. But that's solvable with part design and support. And I can turn it off if I want to print garden gnomes or LOTR figurines.
Drying the filament is a bit trickier. I'm converting the lovely AMS (automatic material selector) that holds four spools of filament and delivers filament according to the print program into a hacked filament dryer. Most folks dry filament by heating it in a oven at 100C for a few hours. That's fine if you live in Arizona, but in Bora Bora, or Oregon in the summer I want something more consistent. I'm building a filament dryer that pumps warm dry air through the sealed box of the AMS continuously. I prototyped a simple version of this using two forced air PTC(positive temperature coefficient) heaters that push warm air into the AMS, then recirculate it back through a desiccant bed. As soon as I get back to Hood River I'll start printing the final version, which adds a regenerative Peltier dehumidifier that puts a cold heat sink in the path of the air returning from the AMS, condenses out the humidity, rewarms the air by running it over the hot side of the Peltier plate, then shoves it into the desiccant bed. I considered adding heating elements to automatically restore the desiccant, but that drives moisture out of the desiccant, so it wouldn't be all that rational. And this is probably complicated enough. I know that all sounds expensive but it's actually going to be about a hundred bucks in parts--thank you China--and some 3D-printed PLA parts. The design is the expensive part, and that idiot works for free.
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Back in Hood River. It's nice to get back in my shop but Jeez it's cold! I saw someone paddling a downwind board at the event center and I absolutely had no interest in joining him. Could someone call me when the air temperature hits 80 and the water temp hits 70? I'll be huddled by the fire until then.
Diane and I get to spend way too much time with Docs this year. She's getting both knees replaced, I'm getting an ablation to extend this AFIB-free streak. I'm blaming Amiodarone for my recent weight gain. My cardiologist is skeptical. He thinks it's all the food I ate.
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Diane and I get to spend way too much time with Docs this year. She's getting both knees replaced, I'm getting an ablation to extend this AFIB-free streak. I'm blaming Amiodarone for my recent weight gain. My cardiologist is skeptical. He thinks it's all the food I ate.
I had an ablation last July and have been AFIB-free ever since. I had a few mild TIA episodes in August so the surgeon is keeping me on Eloquis just to be safe. He is suggesting I get a Watchman implant but I'm holding off on that for now. In 2022 I had an ablation, an emergency appendectomy, and an inguinal hernia repair among other things. I don't want any more procedures for a while.
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Back in Hood River. It's nice to get back in my shop but Jeez it's cold! I saw someone paddling a downwind board at the event center and I absolutely had no interest in joining him. Could someone call me when the air temperature hits 80 and the water temp hits 70? I'll be huddled by the fire until then.
I thought I would be in by now for sure but...42 degree water (and air) doesn't sound inviting for proning. On the upside, we are just back from Arizona and Southern California and both were cool as well. :).
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Back in Hood River. It's nice to get back in my shop but Jeez it's cold! I saw someone paddling a downwind board at the event center and I absolutely had no interest in joining him. Could someone call me when the air temperature hits 80 and the water temp hits 70? I'll be huddled by the fire until then.
Not to get all personal but why would you leave Maui for Hood River in March?
My version of this would be leaving Mavericks in February to go to the Ice storms of Eastern Connecticut.
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Came back early to get Diane's knees replaced--one about a week from now, the second in September. The things we do for love.
Then again, I have a few thousand projects going at my shop. It will be nice to finish one or two.
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Bill, Do you have any of the ART foils with you? I want to grab some profiles (airfoils, I suppose) off of those. I have done about 20 foils so far but I have never actually seen an ART in person and I want to see what they are doing. It will only take me a half hour to get root, mid and tip profiles.
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Admin - how are you extracting the foil sections? I did it before with paper (http://"https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36551.msg421233.html#msg421233") but it took longer than 20 minutes all told
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Admin - how are you extracting the foil sections? I did it before with paper (http://"https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36551.msg421233.html#msg421233") but it took longer than 20 minutes all told
I am using a Revopoint Mini scanner. It works really well for this but the scan spray and very particular lighting is required. It took me a while to get used to it and I hate the software but it is very quick and accurate now.
PS, I remember that thread and it was super helpful. It got me started on looking at (and comparing) wing profiles. Great to have a reference to things that you have liked and disliked. I tried both the wire method and the contour tool. Both were OK for getting a rough idea but there was not a lot of confidence there for me, especially when trying to measure and digitize.
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Bill, Do you have any of the ART foils with you? I want to grab some profiles (airfoils, I suppose) off of those. I have done about 20 foils so far but I have never actually seen an ART in person and I want to see what they are doing. It will only take me a half hour to get root, mid and tip profiles.
Yeah, I've got my 999. I'll come by this week. Tomorrow I have to take Diane to PDX for a presurgery appointment, but probably Wednesday. I fucked my afternoon up today by having to spend most of it in the ER. I was doing some modifications to my motorcycle trailer and leaned on the high end of the seesaw. Of course, it went down, I lost my balance trying to make sure it didn't hit Diane's Tesla and wound up face planting in the trailer frame. Steel is hard, faces aren't. No real damage, I wasn't pretty to start with, just some bumps and scrapes but they gave me a CT scan to make sure I wasn't bleeding out in my giant gourd. I'm on anticoagulants because of the AFIB that I don't currently have, so that added to the drama--and the gore. It looked horrible, as all scalp and forehead cuts do, but really wasn't that bad.
I never quit whistling.
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Honestly, you would need to have also suffered some electrical burns and an organ removal for this to make the Babcock top ten.
Bills Obit:
Bill Babcock
Some Dates
He was Durable
Heal up buddy. Stoked that you lived (and have the wing). Wed later afternoon is great or next week (I can stop by the shop as well). No rush at all. I am just curious.
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The shiner is a late addition but adds to the drama. I didn't hit my eye, but now we know where that goose egg drained, eh?
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The shiner is a late addition but adds to the drama. I didn't hit my eye, but now we know where that goose egg drained, eh?
In my best Quint, "but we delivered the bomb" voice:
But he saved the Tesla.
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Jeeze Bill! You may not kill yourself but you may die trying.😜
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Meanwhile, I have been amusing myself with openai stuff.
What a beautiful writer! Problematic in a way, because it sounds so authoritative and definitive even when incorrect. Mind blowing though, and in three years?
Q: To what degree can flow remain laminar on a swept hydrofoil wing?
A: Laminar flow over a swept hydrofoil wing is possible, but it depends on several factors such as the angle of sweep, the angle of attack, and the Reynolds number of the flow.
When a hydrofoil wing is swept, the direction of the flow over the wing is also swept, which can lead to flow separation and turbulence. However, if the angle of sweep is small, and the angle of attack is within a certain range, the flow can remain laminar over the wing.
The Reynolds number of the flow is also an important factor. At low Reynolds numbers, the flow is more likely to be laminar, while at higher Reynolds numbers, the flow is more likely to become turbulent.
Overall, while it is possible for laminar flow to occur on a swept hydrofoil wing, it is not guaranteed and depends on various factors.
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Yeah, it's almost useful, even when it's full of shit. Have you tried Midjourney yet? Equally mindblowing. You need to sign up for Discord first, which is a portal into the minds of juvenile gamers--not a pretty sight.
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Yeah, it's almost useful, even when it's full of shit. Have you tried Midjourney yet? Equally mindblowing. You need to sign up for Discord first, which is a portal into the minds of juvenile gamers--not a pretty sight.
Yes, Midjouney and GauGAN are nuts. Am I the only one who hates Discord? What a mess! Bambulabs has their community there and it is essentially unusable.
My young cousin Max just did this text to image generator: http://aibyu.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/
Not sure which service he tapped, but this is all coming for sure.
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Also check out this crazy shit. Not just because of Rivian Love :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae1bOg8vHAo
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Guys, guys, you're drifting. Who has ridden on of these prototypes.
NDA Hdip and I. I'll pay shipping. Send whatever you have to us right now and we will ride it and tell you to stop or keep going.
We promise not to break it unless you tell us to. And we will only post what you want us to publicly.
Otherwise grab anyone in Hood and send em out and tell us if both wings broke off at the fuse. If not, it's a giant success. (You can test with a tiny human, it's cool.)
End the suspense. The builders here need to know if we get to be smug or shut up and applaud you. (Hoping for the latter.) Zoners, add your votes if you support me on this.
Do it, do it, do it, do it! Hahaha
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I looked at Admins wings today. they are not going to break. In the unlikely event they flex too much we can bag on a layer or two of carbon and have a structure that should be as strong as any foam cored wing with a zillion layers of carbon.
Anyway, summer is coming. These things will be wet soon.
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Hah! Still chugging away behind the scenes. Bambu discontinued my most used filiment, so I had to find a replacement. Long term, this will make everything easier and the tolerances improved a lot but everything needed to be printed again to make any refinements (which keep coming). Long story short, a lot of printing and refining.
We are going to have a lot of stuff to test this spring including a variety of airfoils, airfoil combos, vortices reduction schemes, tail configs, etc.
This is one of those subjects that is awesome because it can be a lifelong study. Even so, we will have plenty of kit to muck with when the water says yes. It has been dumping in the mountains here, and the Hood River (which empties at the Event Site) is a Slushy. We have a bit to wait still...
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Pretty much going to have to come up there this summer and see.
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Pretty much going to have to come up there this summer and see.
Yup.
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It will be amazing to see how it all works out.
So much easier to send wires down a mast directly to the foil . Then be able to put RC units in the foil
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For some reason 3D printing foils comes up all the time now?? Anyhow there is a guy in Australia printing and testing different fins for windsurfers. He found the rougher printed fins had better grip?
So if you print a foil change the texture on one side to the other. Create a bigger pressure difference?
This has been tried but dosen't mean it cant work.
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For some reason 3D printing foils comes up all the time now?? Anyhow there is a guy in Australia printing and testing different fins for windsurfers. He found the rougher printed fins had better grip?
So if you print a foil change the texture on one side to the other. Create a bigger pressure difference?
This has been tried but dosen't mean it cant work.
Sweet. Please post a link to his fins. Those are an ideal size, even for small printers. I would love to see those. No need to join anything and you could really dial in tip flex. I used to love a whippy tip on wave fins.
With my new material the prints are so consistant and easy that I can print two tail foils at the same time. For smaller fins (345 mm and down), this means a lot of variations with no joining (which is time consuming). They come out super clean. I printed 8 variations yesterday of a single tail (4 different airfoils at two incidence angles for each). Two of the airfoils are symetrical and two are lightly cambered.
This is where this gets super cool and fun.