Author Topic: Swim Missiles  (Read 34098 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2022, 02:55:33 PM »
I'm not going to use it in Maui. I'll try to remember to give it to Tad for you.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

ninja tuna

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2022, 01:40:33 AM »
Found this video that has some good footage of boogie foiling. Skip to the 2:17 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJhioki2ofs

Admin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2022, 02:49:55 AM »
Sweet!   Thanks for that.  I won't have the benefit of an ocean wave or fins but it is great to see the foil/body relationship.

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2022, 10:41:10 AM »
Sam Pa'e is incredibly creative. I haven't seen him in a couple of years, so I don't know the motivation for the boogie board pivot other than Sam's usual approach of "OK, what's next". He's going to love the swim missile idea and he's got the arms for it. His arms are about as thick as my legs.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2022, 08:29:23 AM »
SM1 and SM2 are coming along!  Extra Long boxes are in and a layer of 4 oz to allow for heavy vac pressure on the carbon, which comes next.   YEEOOOW!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 08:36:27 AM by Admin »

jkseattle

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2022, 02:11:09 PM »
Those are looking sweet!  Can't wait to see them finished and hear how they work for you both.

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2022, 10:08:02 AM »
Dave Daum is a wizard. I stole my ideas of laying up a light glass layer to make vacuum bagging work better from him. I've crushed lots of projects and squeezed most of the epoxy into the EPS before I saw what he was doing. Brilliant. I'm not sure why he's using 4oz though. Probably it works a lot better than veil for boards. Most of the stuff I do is little, and 1oz works fine, but I'll probably turn the first complete board I do into a banana if I try that.

Now that I think about it, my fatboy wing wound up with divots from bagging it. Maybe veil isn't enough even with little stuff.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Surfside

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2022, 05:48:13 AM »
Admin,
First, thanks for all that you do!

"Extra Long boxes are in and a layer of 4 oz to allow for heavy vac pressure on the carbon"

What vac pressure are they going to use?

Thanks

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2022, 06:53:33 AM »
I'd assume Dave will use close to 30 inches. I'm guessing but it's what I do when I have a strong enough part. Though as I mentioned I've never built a complete board, just motorsports bits, board repairs and modifications, and a hand plane or two. He's letting the glass reach full hardness instead of laminating in the B stage (not sticking to a glove, but still soft). Wet lamination works best in the B stage. If you're bagging and aiming for lightness I find the parts are stronger, lighter, more consistent surface (no voids), and better looking if you squeeze the shit out of them. 30 inches is 15 pounds per square inch, 20 is 10 pounds. Not a huge difference unless the part is fragile and you don't care too much about weight.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Surfside

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2022, 07:10:03 AM »
Thanks PB

Dontsink

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2022, 08:57:43 AM »
I am not sure you can use 30inHg on any kind of EPS core board, preglass or not.

I had this carbon 85l wingboard, ridden to hell and sucking water from +2years of kneebrace hits.Rails were soft on top where i climb on board.
So i dried it, injected 2 part PU in the soft bits and i lammed on top of the rails with Carbon/Innegra.
Into the bag and vacuumed with a 2nd hand Gast pump ...but i forgot to open the relief valve and instead of 10inHg it went to the max (around 20inHg ?).
When i checked 2 hours later the board looked like a heroine junkie, it had lost about 30% volume.
To give it credit it still rides and jumps pretty nice, it floats like a 60l board instead of 85l ,it has all this wondrous concaves everywhere...but refuses to die or even crack.
Lesson learnt :)

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2022, 10:09:44 AM »
That undoubtedly depends on the quality of the glassing and the shape and size of the part. The picture I showed of the fatboy wing was preglassed with veil and bagged at 25" with my Gast pump. I thought as small as the area was and as worried as I was that the wing would simply break the first time I used it that I wanted the carbon well incorporated both into the existing wing and the new extensions. When I looked at the wing after drawing the vacuum I thought it was working perfectly. When I came back after a long foiling session it had a trough where the new EPS was. So I decided I needed to use much lower vacuum--about 5 or 10". But then I put tracks into a board that had a tuttle box. To reinforce the tracks I cut the bottom and top of the board to give me an area about 5 inches wide for each track and took the tuttle out and replaced the PVC block the tuttle was in with XPS. I glued in 4" wide PVC that extended a bit past the top and bottom and then sanded the PVC flush and routed the slots for the tracks. I wet glassed on a 4 oz layer of S glass with the glass going under the tracks. I sanded the original glass to give it some tooth and then bagged on a layer of carbon. When I opened the bag and pulled off the peel ply the carbon came off with it and was heavy. The breather had almost no epoxy in it. I cleaned up the mess and tried again with 20", watching for signs the epoxy was pulling up into the breather. I wound up pulling it to about 25" to get a clear indication the breather was sucking up some epoxy. There was no bowing of the eps and the carbon was well adhered everywhere. Since then I've done almost everything with at least 20" and generally 25". The only time I've had a problem with deformation was when I used eps with just spackle on it.

I'm going to finally make a complete board this year and I'm sure I'll fuck it up. I might turn it into a wrinkled banana, but we'll see. Maybe Dave will chime in and answer the question directly. I'd be really interested in what he has to say. He might save me from tossing another mess out into my parking lot to cure before I trash it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 10:16:01 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

tarquin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2022, 11:29:41 AM »
I am no expert but there is a lot too learn about vac bagging. I hate to think of the amount of money i have thrown in the bin. As Pono said i have a perfect sheet of carbon kevlar i pulled off the bottom of a panel. After talking to a friend i used too much vac pressure, too thick breather and peel ply and not enough epoxy. This ended up in a dry laminate. The peel ply and breather soaked up all the epoxy. At some point you end up pulling the epoxy away and not sticking it to the board. This is why prepreg and an autoclave is so much better. Lower temp prepreg is available, but even more expensive than prepreg.
 To vac bag you have to calculate all the numbers, breather weight and how much epoxy it will soak up,peel ply weight and how much it will soak up,or be prepared to waste a lot of epoxy to end up with less on the board???? Either way you HAVE to use a lot more epoxy.
 As far as vac pressure and EPS since EPS is mainly air, thats why it is so light, you have to be careful not to suck the air out of it. So you need to seal it before you can vac bag it. The better you seal  it the harder you can bag it.
 At the end of the day if you are not vac bagging properly and prepared to waste a whole load of breather,peel ply and use twice as much epoxy don't bother is would be what I have learnt.
 I did have some fun though. Mainly after a couple of beers!
 

tarquin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2022, 11:43:46 AM »
Not the pics I thought, my computer skills are 0. But that is Armacell recycled PET vac bagged onto an EPS blank with PU glue. Just enough pressure to pull it down and the PU dries quickly so you dont have to leave it under vac for too long and suck all the air out of the EPS blank. Have everything well prped before trying that by yourself !

Admin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2022, 11:56:01 AM »
I asked Dave Daum what pressure they could use after the 4 oz.  He replied:

"We apply 5 Inches of vacuum. Any more will deplete the lamination of the resin needed for that magic 60/40 resin To fabric ratio. And we use a very thin bleeded/ breather material so as to not wick up too much resin. I hope this helps."

 


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