Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Prone Foiling, Surf foiling, Pump Foiling => Topic started by: Admin on October 18, 2022, 04:36:13 AM
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Hi Guys,
Stoked to be getting started on something new. I have been enjoying a lot of pool time this year and I want to move that into the beautiful outdoors and make better use of our Gorge waters. Roll Columbia! Chan wants to keep me company so we are having two swim missiles shaped :). The basic idea is a reduced prone paddleboard with foil tracks. I wont be standing or kneeling at all, so these will be belly boards. My goal is to have them be as fast paddling as possible with no real standing balance or leg pumping requirements. When/where foiling is possible, that will all need to be done with arm power, board and foil efficiency, and swell assistance. I do think and hope that some pumping assist will be possible (once foiling) with arms and upper body motion, but the extent of that remains to be seen. I don't envision 18 minute foiling stretches but any foiling glides sound like a great bonus right now. This will all be fast in comparison to my 1.5 MPH in the pool :). Flat water cruising sounds fun as well.
The Axis 1310 is what I am leaning towards on a 75 carbon mast with a standard Fuse. Axis guys (Evan and James) suggested those for my purpose. Open to opinions.
The smile at the end of the last clip has me stoked. I am hoping we can get there with improved design and somewhat less scramble. Anyways, here goes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tvNaN6XehI&list=PL852iqhMMbWICtOAUgPaACurDd0EyJZsO&index=1
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Maybe a longer Barricuda style board will be easier to get up on the foil ? If you are making 2 boards try 2 different designs maybe.
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Admin - messaged you :). Also, check out Sam's IG page: @supcommitted
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Sounds like the perfect scenario for a Foil Drive (https://www.foildrive.com.au/?currency=USD) to get you moving and up flying.
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Thanks a lot guys.
Tarquin, yes, longer for sure. My legs no longer cooperate and I am not able to kick. I swim with a pull bouy to keep them afloat, so I will need the extra length for swim speed and to support my legs.
JKSeattle, Great to hear that prone arm/body pumping is possible and useful to maintain glides. I would love to see any videos of prone pumping. I really dig the boogie style of board that Sam is riding on his insta. That looks super fun (even if not for me). I want to check out your page as well (waiting for confirmation). Could you tell me where you guys like the front foil positioned (center of lift) in relation to your prone body. It seems like mid torso would be right, but I would love to hear what you have found.
I had reached out to Dave Daum at Kings for this. I was particularly drawn to his mix of prone paddleboard shaping and foil sport design/shaping/building experience. I had seen a few of his prone paddleboards on his site, liked them a lot, and wanted to try a modified version for this use. He used one of those (open ocean prone paddleboard) files as a start point for this build.
I feel like for my needs the primary factor needs to be fast and easy swimming. To me that means what I call a displacement board (may not be the best term for it) but essentially the opposite of a planing hull. Stability is much less of a concern due my perma-prone status and a super wide foil underneath. I wanted to keep the max width at a comfortable hand width for control and hopefully pumping. We are going to add in some long upper rail indents for finger grips once everything else is positioned. 18 inches feels really good to me. Kind of a push up width. I don't think I could grip well narrower. Dave's 12 foot prone paddleboard https://www.kingspaddlesports.com/collections/prone-paddle-boards/products/paddleboard-12-stock notes common widths in the mid 17 inch to mid 20 inch range so that also fits. Length is a bit of a guess. Long is fast, but I know I don't want a 12 foot foiler, but how short can maintain swimming slickness? We penned in 8 feet. Dave adjusted thickness to set the deck (with my weight) about 1.5 inches above the waterline. That is currently at about 5.5 inches. Chan's will be downsized again for a much narrower width, her lighter weight, etc.
We did an initial rough in design session to get started. So cool to be able to do this live from different states! I was shocked that Dave could condense my ramblings into a cool initial modification of his design in that time.
Nothing is smoothed or sorted yet and the foil box position is just a placeholder. The contours come from Dave's prone paddleboard shape and have been downsized to 8 x 18 x 4.6. The aspect ratio obviously changed. With that start Dave is going to massage out the oddities and see where we land.
Stoked to be underway!
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It looks like the bottom has a center channel but it won't. It will be softly rounded aside from the eventual box area itself, which will be flat and level with the deck.
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If it was me, I’d be prone surfing the Lift e-foil and ripping up the hatchery. You could have a glass shop make a leg extension to the stock board.
I’ve got a buddy who bought one. He’s at my surf spot all the time, making it look way more fun than it should be. He’s ripping waves off throttle, prop folded. He’s obsessed. Multiple small batteries for performance. I’m jealous of him. I see myself owning one someday, probably.
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It might be worth asking Foilwithme about his prone downwind board. He hates SUP, so this is what he uses. I think he's having decent success with it.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cin5GrqvIpc/
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Accessorize : )
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Very cool. If you want to try a motor let me know. I'm building a foildrive clone and an eFoil with the drive set in the upper middle of the mast so the drive can be lifted out of the water on foil, but is still deep enough to control in eFoil mode. I think for a prone board like this the best location would be very close to the board with a good shroud to keep it from Julienning your nether regions. But I can build about anything and I have lots of spare parts (and I can pump out the mounts on my 3D printers).
Great choice going with Dave Daum. He has all the design expertise of Mark Raaphorst with the added benefit of a production-level shop. As you well know Mark could build this beautifully but you'd be substantially older before you see the board.
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I'm backing this 200%. And yeah, add some electricity. It'll make the runs longer. You can attach the remote to the deck and not have to hold it. I dig it.
Eventually it'll just be boost buttons on a box on the deck.
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https://www.scubajet.com/shop/accessories/scubajet-pro-overwater-kit/
I still think these are cool. I know I mentioned it before and blue planet did a review but I think that was the older 500w version. The 1000w version should have more than enough power to help get up. It also keeps everything under the board. I am pretty sure it has a safety function that turns the motor off when it comes out of the water. Perfect for foiling. Set the throttle at 70-80%, what ever you need and forget about it
I still have an idea of adding small foils to the front of a 14ft SUP. With a small T-foil rear fin. This would create stability and allow you to go narrower. Not actually get foiling but add some lift and stability. Would the extra drag of the foils be compensated by a narrower board?
Anyhow back on subject, maybe 2 small L foils at 45°( or whatever the optimal angle is) up forward would help lift you out. It would create lift forward to begin giving the main foil a bigger AOA to help you get up on the foil ??? These with a scuba jet underneath should have you popping up on the foil easily????
You could easily make 2 L foils out of 1 long high aspect front wing.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks. I have been following the motorized side of things with interest. The options look fantastic and I would love to try some. For me that would be an also, not a rather than for now. The pickin's are getting a little slim for things that both stir my blood and are a great workout. I think we have all become addicts to that combo and the post-session buzz that these sports serve up.
I love the idea (no guarantee that it will work) of showing up to an empty lot, unloading a full carbon spear, and swimming a few miles of uncrowded Gorge full of flats, upwind, downwind, mellow bumps, bigger bumps, and hopefully some foiling glides. If I were a politician I'd call it, freedom boarding :).
I talked with Dave Daum again yesterday and we looked of his finessed versions of our concept. They look awesome to me. Dave makes Shape 3D sing and it is really fun to watch (I hesitate to call it participate in) the process. I'll post those, and the details of carbon construction he is going to use, soon. The best part is, we will have two sizes to test at very different volumes, and if we missed on certain elements (likely), we will have the files available to iterate.
I am super impressed by what everyone is doing with foils these days and I have enjoyed seeing the progress on all of those purpose built designs. I am approaching this from a perspective of swimming, prone paddleboarding and bump chasing. A set of arms and a wind generated Gorge swell is pretty well the lowest power scenario I know of for bump catching or foiling. Yes, in my dreams, these are massive foilers and swell missiles, but in reality I will be stoked with much more mundane pleasures. Anyone who has experienced a whipped up Gorge knows that just being out there is magical. I have been missing that. The process of getting geared up for a reentry has me fully juiced. That alone is worth the price of admission.
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Will be following your board design and build closely as I'm interested in a similar thing for Puget Sound Dw's. One thing to pay attention to will be where you put your arms and hands when up on foil. When paddling, it's easy w/ a narrow board to just have them over the sides like a prone paddle board. Once flying, you may want some form of handhold or handle to be able to control the nose (which will be a lot longer than a boogie foil) and steer. On my board, it's wide enough and has a blunt nose so I can just grip it or the rails. One of my custom boards that Sam helped design has 3 handles: two at the rails and one on the nose. Those help for steering as well also provide something to grip and carry the board which is not light w/ the foil on.
I'd imagine your foil mast will be in the last 1/4 of the board but not too close to the tail since it'll have a lot of nose length. In looking at photos of Sam and myself, the mast is usually under our thighs, with the majority of our body leaning forward. On your design, the extra length will be nice for paddle speed and getting up quickly. Once up in the air tho, it may be more conducive to longer, drawn out turns vs quick carves due to swing wt.
On boogie foil, since almost all of our lower body is off the board (in air), we end up raising our legs to provide leverage and force the weight to shift forward. You can also pump & shift weight by lifting and lowering legs. Sorry, I don't have any video of that (mostly use a mouth-mount GoPro).
Agree with all that power-assisted flight would be cool! And a way to get back in case there's no shuttle.
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I am super impressed by what everyone is doing with foils these days and I have enjoyed seeing the progress on all of those purpose built designs. I am approaching this from a perspective of swimming, prone paddleboarding and bump chasing. A set of arms and a wind generated Gorge swell is pretty well the lowest power scenario I know of for bump catching or foiling. Yes, in my dreams, these are massive foilers and swell missiles, but in reality I will be stoked with much more mundane pleasures. Anyone who has experienced a whipped up Gorge knows that just being out there is magical. I have been missing that. The process of getting geared up for a reentry has me fully juiced. That alone is worth the price of admission.
This whole project sounds fun. Haha next summer Admin is going to be doing Swim Missile tours in the Gorge. I'd sign up for a session.
Stoked for you. You'll prob need to go to Maui and do some Maliko testing with Pono this winter.
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Here are the two designs, cleaned up and nuanced. In my mind Dave Daum did a fantastic job of downsizing the essence of his larger shapes into cleanly streamlined, more compact packages. To my eyeballs they look like fast swimming shapes. That is exactly what I was hoping for as a start point for this new adventure. This is Chan's board at 7'7 x 17" x 4" at 64 Liters:
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..and the larger one at 8' x 18" x 4.6" at 84 Liters:
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Love it.
Check out Hydro Mind on Instagram. I don't do his course but his video tips on dry land training there and on YouTube helped me get in way better paddle shape.
I don't get into the water enough and this helped keep me tuned up.
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Training is going to be key. Have you tried the Hydro resistance bands?
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Accessorize : )
I'm thinking of trying these. How are they on the shoulders?
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Hey guys,
This just popped up on the NW Wingfoil page though maybe more volume than you're looking for. Very close construction wise to my 6'5 x 23" Kalama custom that weighs 12# even. I'll bet this weighs 11 or less.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/261798468350180/permalink/828210771708944/
$900 for this seems like a bargain :)
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Ooh! I just saw this vid. Really cool to see the boogie proner with fins kick out and pick up the next swell. He is getting incredible glide off of that foil and that is a pretty light day.
https://youtu.be/_85aLQsXVw8?t=37
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Here is his instagram if you want to talk to him about it. He has a barracuda now, so can probably compare the different styles for you.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgvUHhkjZ35/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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Hi guys,
Thanks for those links! So much cool stuff happening in all of these sub directions.
Does anyone have any experience with the Axis 1300 or 1310 from Axis? I am looking for the impossible, of course. Most lift and least drag. I envision this as a pretty cruisey endeavor so top speed and radical maneuverability are lower priorities. Unsure what choices and sizes for stabilizers for this use.
Thanks
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I like Dominic’s analysis
https://youtu.be/xTb7I2DVJNE
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Accessorize : )
I'm thinking of trying these. How are they on the shoulders?
No problem, but I use them (as an age compensator) on the maybe three times a year when I prone surf. So not enough to gauge whether any repetitive stress issues. I just swallow my pride and paddle my heart out. I could also use some spring loaded kneepads for my pop-up.
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Does anyone have any experience with the Axis 1300 or 1310 from Axis? I am looking for the impossible, of course. Most lift and least drag. I envision this as a pretty cruisey endeavor so top speed and radical maneuverability are lower priorities. Unsure what choices and sizes for stabilizers for this use.
Thanks
I've got a 1300 you can borrow. I rarely use it. It's probably the best-looking foil in my quiver so you won't gag when you bolt it on your fuselage. LMK if you want it, I can drop it off before we get out of this cold place. The 400/60 stabilizer works well with the 1300.
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https://www.scubajet.com/shop/accessories/scubajet-pro-overwater-kit/
I still think these are cool. I know I mentioned it before and blue planet did a review but I think that was the older 500w version. The 1000w version should have more than enough power to help get up. It also keeps everything under the board. I am pretty sure it has a safety function that turns the motor off when it comes out of the water. Perfect for foiling. Set the throttle at 70-80%, what ever you need and forget about it
I still have an idea of adding small foils to the front of a 14ft SUP. With a small T-foil rear fin. This would create stability and allow you to go narrower. Not actually get foiling but add some lift and stability. Would the extra drag of the foils be compensated by a narrower board?
Anyhow back on subject, maybe 2 small L foils at 45°( or whatever the optimal angle is) up forward would help lift you out. It would create lift forward to begin giving the main foil a bigger AOA to help you get up on the foil ??? These with a scuba jet underneath should have you popping up on the foil easily????
You could easily make 2 L foils out of 1 long high aspect front wing.
Been there, done that with the geezer foil. I used surface piercing foils in the front and a T foil in the back. I fucked up the calculations so it had way too much lift and of course, way too much drag. Do the math carefully if you go forward. Mine was lifting 250+ pounds at less than 3mph. I've also seen a surfski used as a standup board with two small foils on outriggers to stabilize it. The foils had floats above them to stabilize the board at rest. As soon as the paddler got up to speed the floats left the water so just the hull and the foils were in contact. It paddled fast but was impossible to turn. Not as bad as the tunnel hull Speedboard that now graces the gates to my shop. That went 100 percent straight with no fin, but wouldn't turn at all.
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In this situation they would just be there to assist in lift and help lift the front of the board. Once you are up on the main foil they are out of the water. Not sure how touch downs would be?
As far as the SUP it was an idea that you could have a say 21 inch board for flat conditions and put the foils in for rougher conditions. Adding stability and a bit of lift forward to stop nose diving. Not to actually get the board foiling. Like that you could have 1 board for a wider range of conditions. They would be very small. Foil assisted. Not foiling. Meaning average Joe could have 1 board covering a wider range of conditions. Maybe to get any benefits from them they would have to be bigger than what I am thinking then as you said make it difficult to turn.
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I've got a 1300 you can borrow. I rarely use it. It's probably the best-looking foil in my quiver so you won't gag when you bolt it on your fuselage. LMK if you want it, I can drop it off before we get out of this cold place. The 400/60 stabilizer works well with the 1300.
Nice! If you weren't going to use it in Maui, I would love that.
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I'm not going to use it in Maui. I'll try to remember to give it to Tad for you.
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Found this video that has some good footage of boogie foiling. Skip to the 2:17 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJhioki2ofs
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Sweet! Thanks for that. I won't have the benefit of an ocean wave or fins but it is great to see the foil/body relationship.
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Sam Pa'e is incredibly creative. I haven't seen him in a couple of years, so I don't know the motivation for the boogie board pivot other than Sam's usual approach of "OK, what's next". He's going to love the swim missile idea and he's got the arms for it. His arms are about as thick as my legs.
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SM1 and SM2 are coming along! Extra Long boxes are in and a layer of 4 oz to allow for heavy vac pressure on the carbon, which comes next. YEEOOOW!
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Those are looking sweet! Can't wait to see them finished and hear how they work for you both.
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Dave Daum is a wizard. I stole my ideas of laying up a light glass layer to make vacuum bagging work better from him. I've crushed lots of projects and squeezed most of the epoxy into the EPS before I saw what he was doing. Brilliant. I'm not sure why he's using 4oz though. Probably it works a lot better than veil for boards. Most of the stuff I do is little, and 1oz works fine, but I'll probably turn the first complete board I do into a banana if I try that.
Now that I think about it, my fatboy wing wound up with divots from bagging it. Maybe veil isn't enough even with little stuff.
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Admin,
First, thanks for all that you do!
"Extra Long boxes are in and a layer of 4 oz to allow for heavy vac pressure on the carbon"
What vac pressure are they going to use?
Thanks
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I'd assume Dave will use close to 30 inches. I'm guessing but it's what I do when I have a strong enough part. Though as I mentioned I've never built a complete board, just motorsports bits, board repairs and modifications, and a hand plane or two. He's letting the glass reach full hardness instead of laminating in the B stage (not sticking to a glove, but still soft). Wet lamination works best in the B stage. If you're bagging and aiming for lightness I find the parts are stronger, lighter, more consistent surface (no voids), and better looking if you squeeze the shit out of them. 30 inches is 15 pounds per square inch, 20 is 10 pounds. Not a huge difference unless the part is fragile and you don't care too much about weight.
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Thanks PB
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I am not sure you can use 30inHg on any kind of EPS core board, preglass or not.
I had this carbon 85l wingboard, ridden to hell and sucking water from +2years of kneebrace hits.Rails were soft on top where i climb on board.
So i dried it, injected 2 part PU in the soft bits and i lammed on top of the rails with Carbon/Innegra.
Into the bag and vacuumed with a 2nd hand Gast pump ...but i forgot to open the relief valve and instead of 10inHg it went to the max (around 20inHg ?).
When i checked 2 hours later the board looked like a heroine junkie, it had lost about 30% volume.
To give it credit it still rides and jumps pretty nice, it floats like a 60l board instead of 85l ,it has all this wondrous concaves everywhere...but refuses to die or even crack.
Lesson learnt :)
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That undoubtedly depends on the quality of the glassing and the shape and size of the part. The picture I showed of the fatboy wing was preglassed with veil and bagged at 25" with my Gast pump. I thought as small as the area was and as worried as I was that the wing would simply break the first time I used it that I wanted the carbon well incorporated both into the existing wing and the new extensions. When I looked at the wing after drawing the vacuum I thought it was working perfectly. When I came back after a long foiling session it had a trough where the new EPS was. So I decided I needed to use much lower vacuum--about 5 or 10". But then I put tracks into a board that had a tuttle box. To reinforce the tracks I cut the bottom and top of the board to give me an area about 5 inches wide for each track and took the tuttle out and replaced the PVC block the tuttle was in with XPS. I glued in 4" wide PVC that extended a bit past the top and bottom and then sanded the PVC flush and routed the slots for the tracks. I wet glassed on a 4 oz layer of S glass with the glass going under the tracks. I sanded the original glass to give it some tooth and then bagged on a layer of carbon. When I opened the bag and pulled off the peel ply the carbon came off with it and was heavy. The breather had almost no epoxy in it. I cleaned up the mess and tried again with 20", watching for signs the epoxy was pulling up into the breather. I wound up pulling it to about 25" to get a clear indication the breather was sucking up some epoxy. There was no bowing of the eps and the carbon was well adhered everywhere. Since then I've done almost everything with at least 20" and generally 25". The only time I've had a problem with deformation was when I used eps with just spackle on it.
I'm going to finally make a complete board this year and I'm sure I'll fuck it up. I might turn it into a wrinkled banana, but we'll see. Maybe Dave will chime in and answer the question directly. I'd be really interested in what he has to say. He might save me from tossing another mess out into my parking lot to cure before I trash it.
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I am no expert but there is a lot too learn about vac bagging. I hate to think of the amount of money i have thrown in the bin. As Pono said i have a perfect sheet of carbon kevlar i pulled off the bottom of a panel. After talking to a friend i used too much vac pressure, too thick breather and peel ply and not enough epoxy. This ended up in a dry laminate. The peel ply and breather soaked up all the epoxy. At some point you end up pulling the epoxy away and not sticking it to the board. This is why prepreg and an autoclave is so much better. Lower temp prepreg is available, but even more expensive than prepreg.
To vac bag you have to calculate all the numbers, breather weight and how much epoxy it will soak up,peel ply weight and how much it will soak up,or be prepared to waste a lot of epoxy to end up with less on the board???? Either way you HAVE to use a lot more epoxy.
As far as vac pressure and EPS since EPS is mainly air, thats why it is so light, you have to be careful not to suck the air out of it. So you need to seal it before you can vac bag it. The better you seal it the harder you can bag it.
At the end of the day if you are not vac bagging properly and prepared to waste a whole load of breather,peel ply and use twice as much epoxy don't bother is would be what I have learnt.
I did have some fun though. Mainly after a couple of beers!
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Not the pics I thought, my computer skills are 0. But that is Armacell recycled PET vac bagged onto an EPS blank with PU glue. Just enough pressure to pull it down and the PU dries quickly so you dont have to leave it under vac for too long and suck all the air out of the EPS blank. Have everything well prped before trying that by yourself !
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I asked Dave Daum what pressure they could use after the 4 oz. He replied:
"We apply 5 Inches of vacuum. Any more will deplete the lamination of the resin needed for that magic 60/40 resin To fabric ratio. And we use a very thin bleeded/ breather material so as to not wick up too much resin. I hope this helps."
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Hello Fellow Zoners,
Here are a couple photos showing one of Randy's vacuum bagged, carbon fiber swim missiles. The boards have just been hot-coated and will be sanded next. The boards should ship by the end of next week. We cant wait for Randy to fly these babies!
Cheers,
Dave
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On Mark Raaphorst video on vacuum bagging, he use paper towel as breather material.
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Here is another photo showing the deck side of Randy's board...
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And then I can shut the fuck up. That's art to me so many layers!
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Yes thanks , but what is thin? And how much epoxy did you use? Do you change the pressure. Start of high and reduce it as the bleeder fills out? Oh bleeder not filling out I will increase pressure? Wrong you just made a dry laminate.
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Hmm what's this??
Beautiful work!
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Oooh! Here is Chan's:
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Hmm what's this??
Beautiful work!
vector net
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On Mark Raaphorst video on vacuum bagging, he use paper towel as breather material.
Me too, but it's mostly because I'm a cheap bastard. Mark is too.
Dave Daum just blew my mind. I'm going to go have a Mai Tai and think about this. Maybe I went the wrong way on pressure (well, vacuum, but it winds up being pressure), but it worked... ...sometimes.
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looks like somebody with dusty hands was getting intimate with that missile.
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Looks different to the vector net I use.
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So, I think paddleboarders are achieving @4x in flat water vs average swimmer speed. On a board like this I can foil at my current lackluster swim level easily. Yum, pass the pumpkin pie.
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I've been thinking about the pitch control issue in terms of something automatic. I think the wand/bellcrank/movable wing-style sailboat stuff like on the Skeeta, is a possibility, but maybe something more electronic. Micro gyros are cheap as are Bluetooth radios. A waterproof servo moving a control surface and a gyro to keep the pitch under control with a little manual override to manage the flying height. Hell, we could do that with infrared or ultrasonic TOF (time of flight) distance detectors. I've never tried them with water but my dipshit little robots use them to map a room. I'm going to play with the ideas here on Maui. You might not need it, but if you do it would be nice to have a simple (in geek terms, meaning existing cheap tech) solution. I think the entire thing would run nicely on an ESP32 with built-in Bluetooth, servo drivers (PWM pins), and more computing power than an IBM1620 with perhaps a hundred lines of code.
You probably won't need it, but I would be nice to have it ready
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The boards should ship by the end of next week. We cant wait for Randy to fly these babies!
Randy really thought he was going to be able to wait for spring, but now I am ready to break out old stinky (my 5 mil which has been sulking in a bin, unused for 2 years) and get in that cold looking river. SO STOKED!
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I wonder if a windsurf fuselage would work better for this. My thought is more pitch stable, so easier gliding. Anyway, worth remembering if pitch control is difficult.
I reached out to Sam Pae awhile back, asking about boogie foiling. He said it was the most difficult version of foiling. Sam would not be able to try a windsurf fuse because it would tear his legs up.
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I wonder if a windsurf fuselage would work better for this. My thought is more pitch stable, so easier gliding. Anyway, worth remembering if pitch control is difficult
That is a great suggestion. I am not sure what to expect but I am open to an XL fuse if need be.
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I wonder if a windsurf fuselage would work better for this. My thought is more pitch stable, so easier gliding. Anyway, worth remembering if pitch control is difficult.
I reached out to Sam Pae awhile back, asking about boogie foiling. He said it was the most difficult version of foiling. Sam would not be able to try a windsurf fuse because it would tear his legs up.
I just called Sam P'ae to ask about this. He shared the following photographs.
He said that the windsurf fuselage would move the front wing too far forward for his application. He took a damaged standard fuselage and had someone weld an additional 4" section. It took the standard 784mm / 31" fuselage to 35". He has been playing with the Axis 999 lately and likes the 420 tail with flip tips.
He liked it but still wants more length. He said that his system has worked on a Boogie Foil for waves up to 15 foot faces, but that it gets dicey at that size.
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I made another post because I have a different application, and think that longer fuselages could help the rest of the SUP foil world, but Sam also shared this Dead-Sexy Mutant.
The idea was to raise the tail, to breach before the main wing, and keep flying rather than face-planting at high speeds - which apparently is horrible on a boogie foil rig.
Sam said this T-Tail configuration worked well on small waves but NOT on bigger waves (I assume bigger means 6 foot faces or more).
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We talked about ways to extend the fuselage in a more modular fashion. Example use a hot-glue Kenalu shaft. Put a male end on the fuselage and then add 4" or 6" or 8" midsections to extend the length, have the other male end with an Axis tail attachment.
IF the tail is smaller, because you would not need as much leverage, the system would not have to be bombproof.
He then sent me these pictures of another way to extend the tail. A homemade G10 set up that he put together. Pretty creative stuff from the guy who invented the first Tail Handle for SUP's and was the first to recommend a long front foot strap, to me, for big waves e.g. heavy front foot pressure for takeoff and then being able to slide the foot back for efficient glide.
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Sam is endlessly creative.
I have a standard red fuselage I'm not using. It would be easy for me to weld in an extension, though you'll want me to do it after I've been doing a bunch of aluminum fabrication--after every spell away from the shop, my aluminum welding deteriorates to the birdshit level. After a week of practice I'm pretty good for a hack. But before...
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Sam is endlessly creative.
I have a standard red fuselage I'm not using. It would be easy for me to weld in an extension, though you'll want me to do it after I've been doing a bunch of aluminum fabrication--after every spell away from the shop, my aluminum welding deteriorates to the birdshit level. After a week of practice I'm pretty good for a hack. But before...
I am not in need of this but Sam might be interested. The T-Tail looks like a RED fuselage. I know that he said he was moving towards ART 999 and the like so he has migrated to the Black series (as shown in the first photos). I ping you with his number if you don't have it.
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Thanks Beasho and send Sam a big thanks. That is super interesting. I have two Red standard fuselages coming from Axis (just guessing at this point) but something like this may be needed.
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So stoked with how this is turning out!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87uL55G3Pg
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Clinton Yap (Steamroller) is having something similar built. His is more like a prone paddle board with a foil.
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Admin- your boards are looking good! One question for you... how are you planning to hold on to the board when getting up on foil? My (limited) experience w/ boogie foiling is that it's essential to be able to grab onto something, either a rail or a handle like on Sam's yellow board. With the thicker rails similar to a prone paddleboard, might be easy to have something... a indention handhold, handle or ??? to grab. For me, getting up on foil happens with weight transfer towards the back of the board & both hands grabbing the rail to help "lift up" the nose as the foil rises. Steering and turning can be done by shifting weight but it's nice to be able to hold a rail & lean into turns. Here's a few pics of Sam doing what he does on a short (less than 4' long) boogie foil. (pics D Nakamaru).
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Clinton Yap (Steamroller) is having something similar built. His is more like a prone paddle board with a foil.
Hi Bill,
That is what this is. From my first post: The basic idea is a reduced prone paddleboard with foil tracks.
Dave Daum downsized his open ocean prone board for this use and we made our modifications to that.
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Admin- your boards are looking good! One question for you... how are you planning to hold on to the board when getting up on foil? My (limited) experience w/ boogie foiling is that it's essential to be able to grab onto something, either a rail or a handle like on Sam's yellow board. With the thicker rails similar to a prone paddleboard, might be easy to have something... a indention handhold, handle or ??? to grab. For me, getting up on foil happens with weight transfer towards the back of the board & both hands grabbing the rail to help "lift up" the nose as the foil rises. Steering and turning can be done by shifting weight but it's nice to be able to hold a rail & lean into turns.
Hi JK,
We had initially talked about putting grips into the rails but ended up abandoning that. I agree with everything you are saying and it will be necessary. I am thinking glue on rail grips once we get an idea of how everything lines up. We are pretty narrow on these, so deck mounting may be awkward (and painful for that inevitable nose stuff wipeout : ).
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If it was me, I’d be prone surfing the Lift e-foil and ripping up the hatchery. You could have a glass shop make a leg extension to the stock board.
I’ve got a buddy who bought one. He’s at my surf spot all the time, making it look way more fun than it should be. He’s ripping waves off throttle, prop folded. He’s obsessed. Multiple small batteries for performance. I’m jealous of him. I see myself owning one someday, probably.
I accidentally dropped into page one of this thread and noticed this. Yes indeed, I'm thinking a motor setup is a natural for this and I agree with Califoilia (spell check turned that into cauliflower) that the foil drive mounting position probably would work better than just a folding prop. Given the leg and body position, an unshrouded prop seems hazardous and the usual battery box strapped to the tail would get in the way. Now that I have my Prusa printer working again here in Maui I'll step up the experimentation. I'm thinking a backpack or waist pack small battery and motor controller would suit. My el cheapo home made fat tire bike here in Maui uses a backpack battery with RC Model batteries. It will run on just one pack of two 22V 3.3Ah batteries in series, but you really have to plan where you're going and pedal a lot. And at the slightest hint of warmth from the pack I shed it in a nanosecond. The Foil Drive systems are probably a bit too weenie and don't include any kind of shroud. I'll probably step up the motor power a bit with the Faux Drive systems I've built and print a guard that attaches directly to the motor. I think we could bypass the whole wireless throttle system folderol (though it's not hard to accommodate) in favor of a simple on-off button. I just made a gesture control system for one of the projects I'm working on. That approach would be fine if we're paying attention to it, but random hand-waving would produce interesting results.
Now that I think about it Dave already has a male mold for a sunken battery pack. Hmmm.
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Slight detour. But have you looked at "jets" yet PonoBill? The shroud seems safer, but it also seems to be the way that people lose fingers in efoil accidents. The jet seems much safer.
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Oooh!
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That's some great motivation right there. Has anyone calculated the speed at which a foil (with limited variables) will generate the lift needed to fly? I'm considering what my target swim sprint should be. With the apple watch swim app I can have a very accurate idea of where I'm at in relation to the goal.
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I was down at Dave's on Tues., and your boards are looking awesome, and super light! The 15" track boxes are going to be great for dialing in just where your foil needs to be...which I gotta believe finding the exact prone position on a longer board is going to be a bit more complicated than finding it - or adjusting to it via foot placement - on my sup DW board (that also has 15"ers just in case :D).
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That's some great motivation right there. Has anyone calculated the speed at which a foil (with limited variables) will generate the lift needed to fly? I'm considering what my target swim sprint should be. With the apple watch swim app I can have a very accurate idea of where I'm at in relation to the goal.
Here is an example of people knee paddling up onto foil in flat water. In bumpy water it will be doable prone and much easier I bet.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CkuUos8PHRk/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Looks easier in bumps.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ck9uYPSgK33/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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They look like they haven't generated much forward speed, but they are creating bounce lift. It would be interesting to see Garmin or Apple data of the point of speed that various SUP and prone paddle foilers are hitting prior to takeoff.
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I've always used 8 MPH as the speed the foil needs to lift me out of the water. But I used an AXIS 1300 recently and I think I got down to 6 MPH a few times while staying on foil.
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What did the little girl discover?
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Slight detour. But have you looked at "jets" yet PonoBill? The shroud seems safer, but it also seems to be the way that people lose fingers in efoil accidents. The jet seems much safer.
Yup, I made one. It's very complicated to make them efficient. They need lots of intake area and impeller prop speed well suited to the flow rate the outlet venturi is optimized for. My lame effort would make a good immersion blender, but the output was pathetic. I corresponded with a guy who made one with far better engineering than my piece-o'-crap. He used a high RPM, high power motor and a lot of gear reduction. Did all the math right, and the output equivalent to 3+HP being consumed (2500 watts of input power) would barely lift him--and he's skinny.
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I was down at Dave's on Tues., and your boards are looking awesome, and super light! The 15" track boxes are going to be great for dialing in just where your foil needs to be...which I gotta believe finding the exact prone position on a longer board is going to be a bit more complicated than finding it - or adjusting to it via foot placement - on my sup DW board (that also has 15"ers just in case :D).
Sweet! Full agreement Cali. Setup is going to be trial and error and I am glad to have the long tracks. I have no idea what is going to work foil wise. We ordered a bunch of big glidey Axis stuff (1310, 1150, standard fuses, 75 hi mod masts, 400 and 425 tails) to start with. Best guess. That is all here now. Bill also (thanks!) lent his 1300 and a short fuse, so we have an amazing test bed. Dave is going to put some light gray pads on these and send them off. Then its time to get cold. :)
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I am thinking glue on rail grips once we get an idea of how everything lines up. We are pretty narrow on these, so deck mounting may be awkward (and painful for that inevitable nose stuff wipeout : ).
Stick on NSI strap mounts. Those things are wickedly potent. Just be sure you know where you want them before you let them touch the board. The mounts are easily rigid enough to support hard handles. I'd use two for each end, but you could get by with one. I don't have inserts added to any new boards. Once I know where (or if) I want a strap I get the NSI mounts. I think Mark Raaphorst buys them by the carload.
Oh, and Brrrr. Belly crawling in the Columbia in the winter. I used to windsurf through the winter when I was young, stupid, and desperate (now I'm just 1 for 3). I still haven't warmed up and that was more than 30 years ago.
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That is a great idea. I used those for the footstraps on my original Slingshot wing board and I sold it with them in place a year later. Very good stick. I want to make sure I am not constantly rubbing on whatever I do because this will be a lot of swimming. :)
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I made another post because I have a different application, and think that longer fuselages could help the rest of the SUP foil world, but Sam also shared this Dead-Sexy Mutant.
The idea was to raise the tail, to breach before the main wing, and keep flying rather than face-planting at high speeds - which apparently is horrible on a boogie foil rig.
Sam said this T-Tail configuration worked well on small waves but NOT on bigger waves (I assume bigger means 6 foot faces or more).
My first ever iteration of a surfing foil 95 years ago or so) used a raised tail like Sam's. It was about 5" higher than the fuse. It actually worked for preventing breaches if your rate of climb was gradual(slow). If quickly rising, no help at all.
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Swim Missiles have arrived! So stoked with the way these turned out. Both boards came in under 8 lbs which feels hysterical. I am more than excited to test these out, but the weather is pure shite.
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum1.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum2.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum3.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum5.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum6.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com/Daum7.jpeg)
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They look real nice!
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Wow, those look sweet & fast! Nice build. Hope you get to test sometime soon when weather gets better. Very curious to hear how they work and what foils you try out.
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Accessorize : )
I'm thinking of trying these. How are they on the shoulders?
Chan, sorry, I dropped out of this thread. I use Amazon bands and they work great with the swimming motion. I do sets of 40-50 strokes which simulates paddling back out for a wave. I also hang from them leaned back and they help keep me in shape to hang onto wings when I take my all too frequent month long breaks from riding. So far it's made a real difference for me.
For those struggling to pop up, stretch your hips. If you do that you can pop up. It takes forever if you're not 25 but you can build flexibility over 40.
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Me too, but it's mostly because I'm a cheap bastard. Mark is too.
Dave Daum just blew my mind. I'm going to go have a Mai Tai and think about this. Maybe I went the wrong way on pressure (well, vacuum, but it winds up being pressure), but it worked... ...sometimes.
Pono, Tarquin, maybe I got lucky but I use that crap aquarium pump reversed and it's flawless. I just realized that it's accidentally probably doing exactly what Dave does. Low pressure but I always get the carbon on and never crush blanks.
I do get a little lean lamination on the outer glass layer from time to time but my fill coat fixes that and the boards are pretty bomber. Accidentally hit the sweet spot with that hack. Who knew?
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Thanks for the inspiration. I agree flexibility is a must. I do at least a 15-minute stretch/yoga most days. I came across this https://us.zen8swimtrainer.com/products/zen8swimtrainer. I'm sure I could DIY for less, but I may just hit the easy button and order one. I like the idea of adding in 15 minutes a day on days when I'm too busy to get in a full workout. I'm also going to try a few swim gloves out in the pool.
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I almost ordered one but 70 bucks to ship to Maui? Nope.
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That board looks amazing.! 8 lbs! holy shit, that's light!
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Today was day one for a whole bunch of new gear. Sure, no wind, no bumps, but we got wet, and it felt amazing just to be out there. These are the Swim Missiles that Dave Daum at King's shaped for us. They are displacement prone foilboards intended for prone paddling based on his longer prone paddle boards. Thanks Dave! This was also day one for a few of the 3D printed foils I've been working on this winter. We swam with the 1300 and the 1150 (pictured). These have internal carbon tubes as spars. The fuses are made of carbon tubes also. These two 3D printed tails were printed in one piece and while they share the same outline, they have different airfoils and incidence. It was a super low action day and would have been very boring for most of you, but I was thrilled. I have been sidelined for a couple years, so I haven't been out in the Gorge and this this was an awesome treat. Also, some pics of a sand-through 920 I have been working on. Might swim with that one tomorrow. 😊
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/L.png)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/M.png)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/N.png)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/O.png)
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They look beautiful.
The photo adds to our stoke. We will be there July 9th.
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We will be there July 9th.
Stoked for that, Dwight! I am hoping to chase down a swell with you both :)
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We will be there July 9th.
Stoked for that, Dwight! I am hoping to chase down a swell with you both :)
I’m holding off on making myself a SUP downwind board until after the Gorge trip. I want to learn from you, and everyone I meet out there.
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We will be there July 9th.
Stoked for that, Dwight! I am hoping to chase down a swell with you both :)
I’m holding off on making myself a SUP downwind board until after the Gorge trip. I want to learn from you, and everyone I meet out there.
If you need any tips on falling off of a prone board (while laying down) I am your man.
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Day 1 and you already have your mast slammed to the front. I like your style, haha.
Also planning on being out there second week of July. Looking forward to getting passed by some swim missiles!
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OK, this is getting stupid. Three days, 3 Rock hits. The last one stopped me cold. Hey, my head was down because I was sprinting 🙂. No worries, I know a guy... Hah!
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/ou1.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/ou2.jpeg)
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On the upside the Waterspeed app (love it) has me topping out at 7.9 MPH and I hit 7.6 going the other way. Most sprints 6.6 to 7.3 MPH. We swam for an hour each day and it is is going to require some new muscles (very different from pool time). :)
Best speed 2 sec
7.6 mph
Best speed 5 sec
7.4 mph
Best speed 10 sec
6.4 mph
Best speed 20 sec
5.4 mph
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That seems really fast. Are you catching bumps with that speed?
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That seems really fast. Are you catching bumps with that speed?
See why I love the app? :). This was our first day using it but there are no real settings. You just choose a sport and it begins collecting data. I chose Hydrofoil and it did the rest. Eject water, Stop / Save when your done. There was only light texture / small ripples, no wind, we were right by shore inside both the sandbar and Well's Island so basically a lake with no notable current. When breaking between sprints the app was reading 0 or .1 MPH. I am not ready for the current yet. Baby steps.
Spent days 1 and 2 in a steamer. So restrictive on the shoulders for this. Swithced to a 3/2 today which was better but I picked up a sleeveless 2 mm at Big Winds for tomorrow. I think that will help a lot. We tried these webbed half gloves today as well. They run huge. I wear a XL in Oneill gloves and they are too tight. I can wear the Small's that we bought for Chan in these :). Undecided on those. https://www.amazon.com/Speedo-Training-Gloves-Charcoal-Large/dp/B002MUPWWM/ref=sr_1_23?crid=3J8YIEB5IY5BC&keywords=hand%2Bpaddles%2Bfor%2Bswimming&qid=1684229858&sprefix=hand%2Bpadd%2Caps%2C263&sr=8-23&th=1&psc=1
Also ordered a couple NoLimitz masts. 2.5 lbs proved too enticing.
Man am I wiped tonight. I thought swimming all winter would at least put me in shape for this but not even close. Grinding with that surf arch is full on exhausting.
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I click the action button every time I wing. Love that app too.
The old baggie kayak dry suit tops would free the shoulders up. Don’t know if they still make those. I knew a guy who windsurfed with those over a farmer john. Poor man’s dry suit.
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Three (3!!) rocks, that's terrible. You're so hard on equipment.
If you're hitting 7MPH for real you should be one bump from being on foil.
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We tried these webbed half gloves today as well.
My buddy swears by these little guys
https://www.amazon.com/EXCEREY-Swimming-Silicone-Training-Snorkeling/dp/B08R9GLD3H/ref=sr_1_31?keywords=swim+gloves&qid=1684438971&sr=8-31
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We ordered some of those Big. They look great for summer use!
I think the app is giving me goofy readings, or is looking for my good review on the app store :).
Today she said:
Best speed 2 sec
8.6 mph
Best speed 5 sec
7.7 mph
Best speed 10 sec
5.8 mph
Best speed 20 sec
5.8 mph
I am all for a little well placed delusion, but... I am not sure what my speed goal should be but I would like to get real numbers. I was hoping maybe to burst to 6 MPH. I know it will get a lot harder in churned up water.
Sleeveless felt *great* to swim in but it was too painful and the session was minutes long. Ordered a 1.5 mil top to take the edge off. On the upside, no rocks!
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Accurate GPS speeds for as slow as we are is difficult and generally inaccurate with just position/time. The accurate way to do GPS speed is with doppler, and I don't know if any of those handhelds are still available. If I can find the old Paddle Pod I made we can get some accurate readings--it uses a towed prop--but I can't see how it matters. Accept your stunning performance and the accolades of the crowd.
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And…….. Does it fly?
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And…….. Does it fly?
Just flat water so far. We will work up to some bumps and then see what we can do. We can feel them lifting down there during sprints, so we are ecouraged. All very mundane at this point, but for me, this is high adventure these days :).
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The rock hits and not falling apart is the most encouraging thing to me so far. If you can make homemade $300 foils I will get in line to be your customer.
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It's a workout. We paddled upwind for about a mile today and then back with the wind on 4–6-inch bumps. Not really ridable but I did feel a few small surface glides. The paddle specific muscles and balance development will take a few weeks. I think it's possible but I need to put in some time.
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The rock hits and not falling apart is the most encouraging thing to me so far. If you can make homemade $300 foils I will get in line to be your customer.
Thanks dude! The foils will work and they will be super durable. This is begin the begin time in that regard. We have a lot of latitude and variables that can be adjusted as needed. Strength can be added wherever it is needed. I am learning so much each time I build a group. I am doing a new set now that has some little process changes that I learned from the last set that should make them super clean. I want to be able to build both solid foils that are indestinguishable from one piece foils and fully modular foils. Both are in process. I have a completely new platform cooking that borrows from (sailing) moth wings that will allow 1 piece internal carbon rods for almost the entire span, a Prandtl style foil system which will have two lifting wings and no stabilzer, and the box tails that I showed earlier (which are much better already). Each one will require time and testing. I am no athlete at this point, and I will still be joyful with Gorge swimming and hopefully some foiling. That makes me a lousy test pilot. I have some friends coming shortly that are incredible, though. Amazing athletes, great multi discipline foilers, and super analytical. That will be fun.
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This is all great news. I agree with Hdip, if you can swim them into rocks, you've made something well. Most DIY would be toast with a halfway decent hit.
You are getting to my secret wetsuit setup for summer. Farmer John is too leaky so it's cold. Thin top over it seals the splashes and keeps your shoulders free for paddling. This is a near perfect arrangement. And you can go up to a 2 mil top before you have to go back to 3/2.
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Any updates now that the wind has come back? Have you taken them out into some bumps?
I proned my 7'6" DW sup on a tiny glassy day and was able to catch the smallest non breaking waves. Pretty fun!
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Bill, I'm glad you're keeping the heat on admin like you do me. 😅
But I agree! We are waiting!!! Do it, do it!
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Hi Guys, I am not ready for full spring current or big bumps yet. Like watching grass grow, huh? We are having a blast though, and it is great to be out in the Gorge again, even at a low level. Man, I had missed that! Chan has been sticking with me belly paddling but also got a wing. She flew on my 1100 foil last week on her Swim Missile with a 3.5. That was really cool to see. Her board is 17 inches wide and round bottomed, but she was able to get it done :).
Last time out I paddled with my Axis 1310, and while stable, it was really slow under (my) arm propulsion. 2.5 MPH slower overall, up and downwind and during bursts. I am going to try the 1150 this week to see how that fits in.
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YES! All good reports. Exciting to follow along.
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Admin's made 5 foils while I've been sanding this damn board.
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Hah! The quest continues. This was a really intersting week for our new endeavor. Lots of new stuff to consider.
The currrent dropped into the 200 to 300 range. Still strong but not full "see ya" madness. With that we got in our first four Hatchery days. So happy to be back out in the real Gorge. There is no feeling in the world quite like full immersion in a whipped up Gorge. Two days of 18-25, one near nuker at 28-35 and a 15 to 20 day.
I am starting to get a few real glides. The watch is reading 8 and 9 mph glides (but now against the current) with a 12 and a 14 on the bigger day. That should be enough if/when I learn to control it.
Prone paddling on smaller foilboards with the aspiration of foiling in the Gorge has some unique challenges. The big one is positioning. It is clear that the right swell situation is even more critical under arm power than SUP downwind. Every glide I have had was that little corner that forms on a swell and leads you in. Just grinding for open faces gets me nothing. This is compounded by the belly high perspective. Reading the water is tougher than on a SUP or canoe. It is also a hella workout. For me, this is really challenging, but super fun.
We have been able to check out some other gear as well. A friend let me paddle his new Armstrong SUP foiler with a Takuma foil. It was the 7'7 121 liter at 21 inches wide. Really intersting board that a lot of people here love for SUP foiling. It is very stable but even with 41 extra liters it prones slower than my Kings. I think this is mostly due to the width and that it pushes water. My fastest on that board was under 6 MPH.
Chan tried Tamira's SUP foiler and Tamira paddled her King's with me. Chan really liked SUP foiling as well. She can stand comfortably on my 80 Liter King's. Chan is faster paddling my King's then her own by almost 2 MPH. This leads us to think we may have underdone it by some on the volume. Good thing we ordered an 8'3 @ 100 liters and an 8'6 @ 110 liters a few weeks back to add to the Missile quiver :). Those should be done in July.
A friend lent me his Lift efoil yesterday at Event Site in very flat water. That was also really illuminating. I can't kneel or stand now so I was belly foiling. I can see why Sam and the Boogie foilers are using long fuses. Pitch sensitivity lay down foiling is very differnt than standing. Wieght shfts are less immediate and it is easy to go over the front. Ask my sinuses. That aside, I enjoyed cruise foiling on it and I think I have a better idea of how my takeoff needs to happen.
I am viewing all of this as progress and I think within a few months I could be getting some flights.
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From what I hear on DW coaching. If you see the bump, you'll never catch it. You're just waiting for your nose to go up as a bump goes under you, which will predict the bump behind you.
Sounds like you're on the right track though. The longer boards will go faster no doubt. Fun to follow along.
I've gone prone on an efoil tandem with my 10 year old. He lays down, I might get to my knees. The wipeouts are a bit brutal, it's still fun though!
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I agree with that Hdip. I have watched this Gorge video a bunch and I think this is what needs to happen. Line it up perfectly for a swell train (challenging) start for the first one knowing it is a likely miss and then go hard for a later one. There is going to be a lot of misses and just swimming but that is to be expected. One thing is for sure, the big foils we bought are not going to work for us. Too much drag to pick up any speed under (our) arm power. The smaller foils are so much nicer and you can stay fresh a lot longer. This sport will burn your toast, so anything that makes paddling and positioning easier is well welcomed. I asked the guy in the vid about his foil and he is on a Lift HA 170 (Think I should have read his title). That is 1095 area, so basically half of the bigger wings we had been using.
https://youtu.be/-tvNaN6XehI
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One caveat there. I foil with Matt all the time down here. Anything he says is doable, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He is a freakish talent. No one else has been able to stand in flippers that I've seen. I tried using them in the surf. There was no benefit for me and I couldn't get to my feet.
You're not supposed to paddle while waiting for the bump I don't think. When the nose goes up, you dig dig dig and hope that you can time the downhill of the one behind it.
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My guess for trying to prone in the gorge would be to just paddle hard enough to stay in the same spot in the river, not drift downstream or paddle to hard upstream, then once you feel that perfect bump paddle hard.
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I had my first few flights today prone paddling. 3 exhilarating seconds. I’m still a little stunned when I catch a swell so I’m not making the most of the glides yet. This was only day 5 which makes me hopeful that I’ll be getting some longer rides later this summer. Switching to a lighter mast was helpful. I can’t wait to give it a go with the soon to be ready smaller foil wing.
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How often do you get to solo Swell City at 45 mph? We got to scratch for some great ones today. We took turns and cheered each other on.
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Looks epic!
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I drowned just looking at the picture.
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Whoah! Nice pic and great job. Those are some bumps! On the flights, where/how are you holding onto the board?
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I tried to wingfoil yesterday. I got out in the river with my rarely-used 3.5M, struggled to get up in the lulls, and then had it ripped out of my hands in the gusts. After six repeats with same grim results and one totally out-of-control ride to the Washington side I made my way slowly back and bailed. I thought about getting the 2.8M but couldn't really see how it would help. While I was derigging I watched a kiter with a tiny kite get bounced along the shallows trying to land. He got dragged all the way to the spit. I went to check on him, it looked potentially very bad--he was fine.
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Hi Guys, here is the least exciting video you will see today :). This is Chan and I at the Wall going for bumps. The new Falcon foil and tail (likely due to the added vertical elements) are holding us much straighter than our production combos or my previous foils. That is really nice as it allows us to swim harder without wandering. I have made two tail alternates to try soon as well, both aimed at this end. We are both getting a bunch of glides now each session which is super fun. That was a big question mark for me originally. Could we catch these downwind bumps with ouly our arms? With Dave's great shapes that is possible and with the soon to come larger boards, I think it will get easier. So, how to foil from here? Watching ourselves we realze that we are waiting for the unicorn swell. That once a session swell that slides you into a nice open face at a good angle. That is super fun, but it is not reliable. We need to convert these smaller glides into foiling. Right now we are stalling when we get gliding, waiting for something that won't ever happen without our help. Being able to pop up and foil off would be nice but, without that option I think some arm pumping may do the trick. That is what I will try next. Hah!
https://youtu.be/mAIacK829mE
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Have you considered using a foil drive so you can get used to foiling in a prone position.. I’ve done it with mine and the body position on the board can vary from paddling to foiling and compromising your paddling position slightly will help once you get lift off.. Hand paddling with the throttle controller in hand is not a problem.. You can practice on flat water and is great fun and very do’able with the new foil drive Plus.
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Hard to say with such a short clip, but looks like if you just keep paddling and go for that second bump behind you, you'd have enough speed to get on foil. Use first bump to get speed up, and second bump to pop up.
Has anyone winged these foils and given you feedback?
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Have you considered using a foil drive so you can get used to foiling in a prone position.. I’ve done it with mine and the body position on the board can vary from paddling to foiling and compromising your paddling position slightly will help once you get lift off.. Hand paddling with the throttle controller in hand is not a problem.. You can practice on flat water and is great fun and very do’able with the new foil drive Plus.
I have only tried a Lift efoil. I was fun but it took a lot of speed (and prolonged) to take off. That surprised me. I am sure a lighter foil drive on the actual foil would be more similar. How would you swim hard with the controller? Thanks!
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Hard to say with such a short clip, but looks like if you just keep paddling and go for that second bump behind you, you'd have enough speed to get on foil. Use first bump to get speed up, and second bump to pop up.
Has anyone winged these foils and given you feedback?
For sure, these clips are of at least the second or third bump in a swell train where we were still going from the lead bumps. For us, the first one is pretty much unmakeable unless you get foamed in, because you get pulled backwards so hard (at least with the current current, see what I did there?). It is also surprising how it wants to twist you if you have little or no forward motion.
Wing testing should start shortly. The wind has been cranking so we have been swim focused. There are some lighter days forecast ahead that should be in a good range for winging on these foils.
Thanks!
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You could take off on those boards without paddling with a Foil Drive Assist +. It’s all about foil size, something similar to an Axis 1300 or 1150 and you would be straight up. I think it’s a great idea. Box could be placed longitudinally between your legs at the back of the board. The easy time on foil is just invaluable in getting balance and experience.
I suspect even the original 6S battery version would get you up on those slippery long boards.
Love the enthusiasm and ability to adapt by the way, inspiring.
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Have you considered using a foil drive so you can get used to foiling in a prone position.. I’ve done it with mine and the body position on the board can vary from paddling to foiling and compromising your paddling position slightly will help once you get lift off.. Hand paddling with the throttle controller in hand is not a problem.. You can practice on flat water and is great fun and very do’able with the new foil drive Plus.
I have only tried a Lift efoil. I was fun but it took a lot of speed (and prolonged) to take off. That surprised me. I am sure a lighter foil drive on the actual foil would be more similar. How would you swim hard with the controller? Thanks!
Efoils like the one you tried are super heavy and pretty short boards.. They push a lot of water before lift off.. It’s easy to paddle with the hand controller.. You just hold it against your hand with your thumb and this leaves the rest of your hand and fingers to paddle with.. I’ve had to paddle in many times after having used the battery up and I hold it in my hand while paddling rather than have it swing loose off the wrist strap.. Taking off and foiling doesn’t require paddling but if you do it’s just your pointer finger and thumb working the controller leaving three fingers and palm to paddle.. These controllers are much smaller than the ones used on Efoil boards.. I’ll do a short vid for you showing how I do it..
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I think surfdocsteve (insta) modified his controller to use with his mouth. he holds it in his mouth and uses his tongue to control it while also paddling...
https://foilsurfing.net/foil-drive-adventure/
I'll be in the gorge in a couple weeks and would love to try the foils for a quick session.
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Cool. Thanks guys. Tell me what I need to order and I will get it.
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Let Bigmtn wing these foils!
(Said in Charleton Heston Moses voice)
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Cool. Thanks guys. Tell me what I need to order and I will get it.
A ticket for me to fly to Hood river and try your foils. I'll also accept Bill since he's going to be there. Honest unsponsored unbiased opinions. Well I'm not totally unbiased, because if they work then Cowboy is going to buy a printer and start making me some foils. :)
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Have you tried using handles mounted to the deck of the board? I think it would help initiate lift once you’re gliding on a swell and also help with pitch control while foiling.
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Cool. Thanks guys. Tell me what I need to order and I will get it.
Call Hi Tech and ask for Kai Penny.
https://youtu.be/1KnygBv1J-Q
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Have you tried using handles mounted to the deck of the board? I think it would help initiate lift once you’re gliding on a swell and also help with pitch control while foiling.
Hi JRiggs, We miss you guys! (but have been stoked to see your progress, content and activity on your social). Valuable stuff.
We haven't tried handles yet, but we need to now. I am still not quite sure what to do there. Possibly some small printed finger grips adhered to the deck near the rails. Only concern is that when we auger, we slide off the nose.
Thanks!
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Cool. Thanks guys. Tell me what I need to order and I will get it.
Call Hi Tech and ask for Kai Penny.
https://youtu.be/1KnygBv1J-Q
LPB, does hi tech stock this kit?
I had resisted this idea because swimming is my only sport left and I need the workout :). I had to give up biking last year which left an exercise void, but the swim foil quest more than fills that gap and has my stoke back at full force. This idea is growing on me, though, as a testbed. We can use our two current boards and Axis masts (or get Cedrus integrated if that is better) to set up as dedicated Foil Drive boards and use the incoming higher volume boards For swim foiling. I am a little concerned with the low drive setup having too great an impact on angle of attack at takeoff to be useful for testing. Better to go withthe drive higher up? Is that warranted?
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You could take off on those boards without paddling with a Foil Drive Assist +. It’s all about foil size, something similar to an Axis 1300 or 1150 and you would be straight up. I think it’s a great idea. Box could be placed longitudinally between your legs at the back of the board. The easy time on foil is just invaluable in getting balance and experience.
I suspect even the original 6S battery version would get you up on those slippery long boards.
Love the enthusiasm and ability to adapt by the way, inspiring.
Thanks JC!
We are going to sell the 1300 and 1150. I am sure those are rad for higher power sports but under our swim power those are just too much to move. They really get spun around in the current as well which makes it very hard for us to swim at full power. Thanks for the detailed info. I emailed you.
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Cool. Thanks guys. Tell me what I need to order and I will get it.
A ticket for me to fly to Hood river and try your foils. I'll also accept Bill since he's going to be there. Honest unsponsored unbiased opinions. Well I'm not totally unbiased, because if they work then Cowboy is going to buy a printer and start making me some foils. :)
Please send resume. Of particular interest is previous experience with 150 to 800 grit.
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HAH! I appreciate the opportunity, but would feel dishonest if I did not disclose that I am terrible at sanding and never properly sand anything I repair. So I unfortunately must withdraw my name from the running. I do appreciate your time and consideration.
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Have you tried using handles mounted to the deck of the board? I think it would help initiate lift once you’re gliding on a swell and also help with pitch control while foiling.
Hi JRiggs, We miss you guys! (but have been stoked to see your progress, content and activity on your social). Valuable stuff.
We haven't tried handles yet, but we need to now. I am still not quite sure what to do there. Possibly some small printed finger grips adhered to the deck near the rails. Only concern is that when we auger, we slide off the nose.
Thanks!
I think the handles are a great idea, could work so well pulling up to create a pump motion while you are prone.
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I think surfdocsteve (insta) modified his controller to use with his mouth. he holds it in his mouth and uses his tongue to control it while also paddling...
https://foilsurfing.net/foil-drive-adventure/
I'll be in the gorge in a couple weeks and would love to try the foils for a quick session.
Another option may be something mounted on the side of the battery box, imagine the old sewing machine arm that you pushed with the side of your leg. So a desensitized large trigger. That way your hands are totally free for paddling.
The idea of a bite switch on a semi rigid wire mounted on a vest could work as well.
Admin you need to get your local crazy professor/maker PonoBill on the job!
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Why are these called Swim Missles? Missile I get, but where’s the swimming? Is swimming the same as prone paddling?
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Why are these called Swim Missles? Missile I get, but where’s the swimming? Is swimming the same as prone paddling?
It is my lighthearted name for prone paddleboard foiling for downwind bumps 🙂. Since prone downwind was alrerady used for knee paddling with hand paddles, paddling in with fins, catching a breaking ocean wave pumping out to downwind, etc. This is simply arm paddling into downwind swells on a foilboard. I searched the web and couldn't find any examples of this (possibly Austin Kalama but I believe he had hand paddles).
The idea is to catch the swell first, get surface gliding and then take of with that swell speed (rather than popping up and leg pumping on to a foil).
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I agree. We had originally talked about doing some indents shaped into the rails but bailed on that. I think some EVA grip strips may be a good first step. I will make some and try that.
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LPB, does hi tech stock this kit?
Yes. I call him Kai Penny, but most refer to him as Giampaolo. or GP. He's the dealer here.
Ask him. He's honest about what it takes to downwind on foil.
You probably know him. I think he was here before you left. http://mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/
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LPB, does hi tech stock this kit?
Yes. I call him Kai Penny, but most refer to him as Giampaolo. or GP. He's the dealer here.
Ask him. He's honest about what it takes to downwind on foil.
You probably know him. I think he was here before you left. http://mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/
Hah! Yes, we are OLD friends. GP had a couple of the V2 Foil Drive Plus assists on hand with the new contollers. Ordered those from him and the pods for our Hid Mod masts from FD. Stoked to try these. Should make for a great controlled testing platform in flatwater.
Funny fact. Cammar was the third member here on the Zone back in 2007. His 12 foot tandem surfboard and wood Malama paddle was the first "SUP" I ever tried. :)
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Awesome.. You will find there’s a tendency for the push of the foil drive to want to wheelie the board and mounting the mast all the way back in the boxes will help heaps to prevent this.. Once you learn to keep the nose down with gentle throttle and slowly increasing the speed you can move the mast back to where works best..
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These boards from King's look great. What is the guidance on sizing for a prone DW board? Will the folks at King's be listing these on their site at some point?
Thanks!
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Hi Gneve,
Chan is 115 lbs and she likes the 84 liter board which is probably very close to what her SUP foil downwind size would be. I have no real frame of reference but based on her experience and the gains she saw over her 64 liter board I am guessing somewhere around 110 Liters for me at 170 lbs. I can get into the right swell on the 84 liter board but I would like to get the less perfect ones as well. We ordered a 100 Liter and a 110 to see how those go. They should be here in July. Dave has all of these designs on file and could easily fit one to your specs. He is great to work with.
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You were thinking about installing handles…. A friend of mine way back was a really good half man (ha, AKA kneeboarder). Anyway, he had a couple kneeboards made with handles. I wish I had photos but what he did was to scoop out the foam on the deck rail where he wanted the handles and using fiberglass rope he formed the handles. Sounds funky but it was actually really clean the way he did it. That was with polyester resin but with epoxy the handles could also be made using carbon tubes (broken sup paddle?) or PVC pipe.
Some say epoxy won’t bond to PVC but if you heat up the PVC with a torch then the epoxy will bond. Got that idea from the West System site and it definitely works.
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You were thinking about installing handles…. A friend of mine way back was a really good half man (ha, AKA kneeboarder). Anyway, he had a couple kneeboards made with handles. I wish I had photos but what he did was to scoop out the foam on the deck rail where he wanted the handles and using fiberglass rope he formed the handles. Sounds funky but it was actually really clean the way he did it. That was with polyester resin but with epoxy the handles could also be made using carbon tubes (broken sup paddle?) or PVC pipe.
Some say epoxy won’t bond to PVC but if you heat up the PVC with a torch then the epoxy will bond. Got that idea from the West System site and it definitely works.
I am trying to picture that. Do you mean that he ended up with a half round strip along the upper rails?
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These boards from King's look great. What is the guidance on sizing for a prone DW board? Will the folks at King's be listing these on their site at some point?
Thanks!
I'll gently advise that this whole idea of prone (lie down) foiling is currently in development. While people boogie foil (Sam!) The idea of foiling consistently in control lying prone is yet to be figured out.
Admin, would you think it's fair to say that to anyone thinking of buying and expensive singke use board at this time? Or is this more established than I'm thinking? When I've done it I've not been able to control things. But then again that's true of me on any foil craft by and large. 😅
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As far as I can tell, no one is really downwind foiling regularly prone (or from prone) in any variation. There is a obviously a ton of content online, and from my searches almost nothing on actual prone downwind foiling.
I have seen a few vids of people (all were already downwind SUP foilers) getting started on knees with hand paddles and popping up with minimal speed and pumping on to a foil. It is possible for sure but it looks harder than SUP and less reliable. There was some suggestion that this may be easier than SUP foiling but a few years in and essentially no takers.
I have seen a few examples of guys getting in with fins. They are getting in and either poping up or staying prone. This looks super difficult and with a few extra prerequisites :).
I have seen some guys catching breaking ocean waves and then pumping out to do a downwinder. Again, top foiling skills and no falling allowed.
Ocean waves can definitely be done, even on chips without fins. There is so much more energy there and it is prolonged.
The control lying prone is likely the lesser issue. Consistantly catching swell at speeds and with duration enough to foil is the issue. The right gear and config is going to be essential and there is no map. There has been no focus on designing optimized prone downwind foilboards, so there are none to buy.
I would expect some time to learn. We have watched the best current downwind foilers here learn to SUP foil and they went through a brutal process.
We are stoked with how well these first boards are doing. They are great swimmers and we think they will be perfect eboards as well. My guess is that a bit more volume will expand what is makeable. Personally, I am loving this so far, so I could only recommend getting started and giving it a try.
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enjoying (and inspired much by) your process, admin'--as i lurk occasionally
noting also that
YOU A BADASS
keep on with all of it
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Definitely think you're onto something Admin! 8) I tried prone on my Sunova Aviator 7x23@ 120L and I saw the potential. As you said, with the right configuration it might be easier and more consistent than other downwind foiling disciplines.
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https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ct-Ap3tJzy9/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Not really prone, but impressively close.
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Awesome! I had seen Kane do it but this is impressive and the bare hands is sweet and the first I have seen. Because they have now moved the pumping lift off to being done on the knees I would imagine this to be even harder than standing. For those who can do it, though, they no longer need to tote a paddle or hand paddles on downwinders. I cannot imagine that not being very appealing. I can't get my legs under me to kneel now (and I couldn't balance on them if I could) but in days gone by I would have wanted to try this for sure.
Funny fact. Back in October when this idea was forming (and before I had started mucking with foils) I had emailed the Axis crew for foil selection input and they had made some suggestions. James Casey suggested the 1310 and to work down from there. They also wrote, I also talked to Kane and he was using the 1300 sitting down to do the whole Molokai run on it sitting.
Hah!
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I have a bunch of these coming for the rail grips. I think this could be an good and easy start.
https://crabgrab.com/products/fa20-skate-rails
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2101/2829/products/FA20_crab_grab_snowboard_traction_skate_rails_black_angle_2000x.png?v=1631230743)
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Starting to see this now.
https://youtu.be/PzjD1a7uqm4
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I have a bunch of these coming for the rail grips. I think this could be an good and easy start.
https://crabgrab.com/products/fa20-skate-rails
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2101/2829/products/FA20_crab_grab_snowboard_traction_skate_rails_black_angle_2000x.png?v=1631230743)
Those look VERY 3D printed. Looks like 5 minutes of effort on Fusion 3D and an hour of robot work.
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Thx for the update to the thread admin. So everyone knows, I'm not discouraging anyone or commenting. People of course use this for info. When that person asked about buying a board simply wanted someone to say, " this is an experiment" so they didn't spend $3,000 and wonder why they couldn't do it.
As a crap foiler I've ridden more waves on my belly than standing and can attest it's possible but as you said, the catch is the thing and a 2 for 1 pumping might not be possible. I agree the ocean will work but how many times you can paddle up before we're gassed will be the thing.
With a Foil Drive replacing pumping I think it'll get more fun. But then you can also rethink the board. A foil drive boogie might be better for prone pumping. Hmmmm so many options.
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When that person asked about buying a board simply wanted someone to say, " this is an experiment" so they didn't spend $3,000 and wonder why they couldn't do it.
$1400, and you are guaranteed to have an adventure. :)
My goals are the same from post #1 in this thread and I feel like I am on track to get them before I disintegrate. For fully able people, I have no doubt they can use these or similar to swim in, pop up and foil downwind with no apparatus. I think that is hella cool and I would want to be trying that anyways.
The foil drive for me is a controlled way to test foils (which I need) and a way to hopefully expedite learning to convert a swell belly glide to a foiling swell belly glide.
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You know I have all kinds of foil drive stuff, right? Of course it might be a lot quicker to just buy one rather than wait for me to assemble something for you. I also have all the .STL files to print faux drives for various masts.
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You know I have all kinds of foil drive stuff, right? Of course it might be a lot quicker to just buy one rather than wait for me to assemble something for you. I also have all the .STL files to print faux drives for various masts.
Do you mean the mast profiles for the mounting pods or something else. I may need to make a pod for our Axis Hi mod masts but if you have one...
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Of course I do. I have a few that are tanned, rested and ready to go. Jonathan C did the design work on the ones I'm using. I've kind of faded from the Faux Drive group, so I don't know what version everyone is using now. I have 131 unread What's App posts that I've been ignoring. Too much going on. I need to quite playing with motorcycles and get some water time.
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I need to quite playing with motorcycles and get some water time.
Here is a little carrot for you. :). John Akagi posted this from the Wall.
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Holy Buckets that looks cool. I went to go wing today but the crowd was ridiculous. Plus I forgot to let the dog out and I grabbed the wrong Tesla car key so I couldn't lock my car and leave my iPhone (the usual key) in the car. I was at the hook, pumped up and ready to go when I realized I'd screwed up. Oh well. Maybe tomorrow.
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I need to quite playing with motorcycles and get some water time.
Here is a little carrot for you. :). John Akagi posted this from the Wall.
Where is the Wall?
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West of Arlington.
I went today, it was spotty at best, though I had a good day. The fire in Underwood started when I was in the middle of the river. It started out as just a thin column of smoke and I though "I hope the fire department gets on that quickly". It's fairly good sized right now, but there are a fleet of planes doing water drops. On the plus side the wind is fairly light. I was on a 7M wing with my 1150 foil. If it was nuking today like it did yesterday we'd be in for problems. As it is, I think some of the Underwood wineries are going to have a problem.
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Looks awful. Lots of homes, the Hatchery and Swell City under that smoke.
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Pray for no wind!!!! We are very lucky this didn't happen a few days ago. Also, very fortunate to have such skilled fire fighters.
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I need to quite playing with motorcycles and get some water time.
Here is a little carrot for you. :). John Akagi posted this from the Wall.
Where is the Wall?
Bill likely meant West of Rufus, although West of Arlinton is also correct (just a lot further West). It is on the Washington side across the Sam Hill bridge. You have a bunch of good spots in that 4 miles. Maryhill and Peach Beach are kind of choppy bump and jump spots. You can pass on those. Rufus is not lovely, is close to the dam and has the worst current. It sometimes gets a good swell but it is fickle. What people loosely call The Wall is actually a bunch of spots that span about two miles. It is beautiful desert with easy rig and lauch. Some of the spots get death weed and others are clear. PM when you are in town and I will be happy to show you a magic spot that has access to a wave called the 8th wonder. :)
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Will do, thanks Admin. We arrive July 9
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Rufus, Arlington--same, same. Who can tell the difference? A wide spot in the road east of HR.
I never think of it as the wall until I either get in the water or drive on the Washington side. Then it's REALLY a wall.
DW--hopefully the smoke is clear by the time you arrive. And some wind would be nice, though not until the tunnel fire is out.
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Rufus, Arlington--same, same. Who can tell the difference?
We didn’t like Rufus. Chop was confused. Current was strong. The true wind direction (from the wind turbines) never seemed to line up with the river direction there. All of last July.
Meanwhile at Arlington, the wind does line with the river direction. Waves were lined up and wind steady. We probably rode Arlington 10 times last July.
Don’t care how far we drive for great conditions.
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If you see a day when the forecast goes code red favoring the east and far east please go to 3 Mile. Park and launch at the first arrow and reach upwind to the marker at the second arrow. You will know when you are in the right spot because your jaw won't close.
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If you see a day when the forecast goes code red favoring the east and far east please go to 3 Mile. Park and launch at the first arrow and reach upwind to the marker at the second arrow. You will know when you are in the right spot because your jaw won't close.
Will do.
Last year, our fellow van/life wing bud, went to 3 mile to check it out. He found the trail/road to that spot grown over and bushes scratching his paint. He found a few wingers launching from inside the boat ramp area. So we never made the trip. Will definitely go see for ourselves this trip.
It should be no problem to launch at the ramp and rocket upwind to the spot. Heck if we can swim out the tiny hole in the rocks at Arlington and return no issues, that gap should be easy.
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That wave isn't so much a swell as a pit in the water. The bottom must be very strange there.
No wind again today and the smoke seems a bit lighter. Only a few planes flying today. Hopefully, they're getting a handle on it. Some of these fires last until the rain comes.
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Any updates on the fire?
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Visually from Hood River it looks mostly out and the air quality is good. I have been swimming part of this stretch (no wind, flat water) and it looks almost out (a few small smoke streams, no visible flame). In reality the news says there are 375 guys up there and 500 acres at risk. The wind is coming back today so lets hope they have it beaten back. 10 homes were lost.
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One of the new Gong foils should help you get up!
Looks like you're going to need a bigger printer!
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Hey Admin. Give this episode a listen around the 1:40 mark. Adrian talks about fuses and the mast going straight into the front foil.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/36-adrian-roper-and-axis-foils/id1637901696?i=1000619207768
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Hey Admin. Give this episode a listen around the 1:40 mark. Adrian talks about fuses and the mast going straight into the front foil.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/36-adrian-roper-and-axis-foils/id1637901696?i=1000619207768
That is an interesting discussion. It really depends on how you're approaching the issue. If the thought is, can we put the mast directly into the front foil and change very little else? In other words, same stabilizer. Same fuselage length. Same angles, then you may end up with some unwanted consequences. I definitely get that approach because they are working within a highly developed ecosystem that works very well and with an existing user base who has invested there. Now, on the other hand, if you approach it as though this is the best spot to put the mast and recognize that there are huge structural advantages to doing this way and if you have no problem changing everything else to fine tune it. Then you can likely get to a great answer, and possibly a better answer. The two things that he mentioned. Resistance to turning and back foot are both very situational and both are highly solvable if the motivation is there. But those things won't happen if you're just going to say, let's see what happens if we take a 920 wing and mount the mast directly into the wing itself and keep everything else the same. You have to be open to everything being adjusted.
Also, I found the discussion about rotational center interesting. I I have mentioned this before, but the axes of pitch, yaw and roll are the center of gravity and in our sports our body position is the largest factor there. The other points play a role for sure, but the center of gravity is the center of all rotation in aerodynamics and hydrodynamics. That's kind of a mind bender, but it's super important when you're considering what, for instance, the front wing’s role is or the mast, the center of pressure, the aerodynamic center, etc.
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The last couple days I've been toying with shaping an EVA block (a yoga block from Amazon) Velcroed to the board under my shins to act as a leg rest/holder/lift so that my goofy legs and feet don't drag in the water. I can't lift them out of the way, and sometimes they jerk off the board (assholes), so they've just been dragging back there or worse. I knew this had been slowing me down a lot, but with this new lift/holder, I feel like I'm free. What a difference. I wanted to go test it out at the Hatchery or Swell City today but those are closed, so I swam up wind in from the Event Site. Even in tiny chop I could pick up some little bumps. So stoked on that. I can't wait to test this in real swell!
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Sweet! Look up the boards that Jesse Billauer used to ride after his injury. Seems like they have ways to keep his body on the board.
I agree with what you said about the podcast too. Not always sure that Adrian has the correct findings from his experiments. But he does experiment, I'll give him that.
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Hey Admin. Give this episode a listen around the 1:40 mark. Adrian talks about fuses and the mast going straight into the front foil.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/36-adrian-roper-and-axis-foils/id1637901696?i=1000619207768
Now, on the other hand, if you approach it as though this is the best spot to put the mast and recognize that there are huge structural advantages to doing this way and if you have no problem changing everything else to fine tune it. . . . .
. . . . . The other points play a role for sure, but the center of gravity is the center of all rotation in aerodynamics and hydrodynamics. That's kind of a mind bender, but it's super important when you're considering what, for instance, the front wing’s role is or the mast, the center of pressure, the aerodynamic center, etc.
Adrian did mention that the most sensible place to mount the mast was directly above the front wing. Anyone who has studied structures would instantly conclude that a Cantilevered front wing makes no sense. It also adds to the moment, cracking the front of foil boxes on every improperly reinforced foil board. However, after testing in the real world, they empirically seem to work better for control, namely turning.
The thing that got me worked up was when the generic guys suggested the free body diagram should be around the mast*. Adrian kind of paused and said I think it should be around the front wing. And it should! He didn't snap back the way he might have on the Facebook page.
The simplest view I have found is the first.
The second I built to add some numbers and downforce from the tail.
The third comes from an aerodynamics textbook.
These are largely based upon the Center of Lift from the front wing. The true center of rotation for all mass (Rider + board) gets especially wonky considering the board and rider are not coupled but are flopping under foot, knee and hip.
*People designing boxes should use the mast as the center of the free body diagram.
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It's a pretty wild thing, even to conceptualize as a whole. Random thoughts follow.
You have everything rotating around the center of gravity which in itself is moving. In our case, the center of gravity is in constant motion because we're 90 percent of it 😊. In pumping, for instance, our subtle motions are constantly shifting center of gravity forwards and back, and the center of gravity moving changes the center of lift (AKA center of Pressure), which also moves constantly.
There is a draw to thinking about Center of Lift as a position on the front wing wing, but it can, and often will, move entirely off of the front wing (or never be located there).
Through the cycles of a pump we move our bodies back and forth and the center of gravity moves back and forth. The angle of attack changes and for instance, as angle of attack increases, Center of Lift moves forward. As it does, the stabilizer arcs downwards and goes from negative angle of attack to positive angle of attack. So now you momentarily have two uplifting wings which adds power to that stroke of the pump cycle.
The Center of Lift/Pressure location is impacted by all of the characteristics (sizes, angles, profiles) and locations of both wings and the fuse length. That is cool to know and possibly a bit different than the commonly shared info.
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There is a draw to thinking about Center of Lift as a position on the front wing wing, but it can, and often will, move entirely off of the front wing (or never be located there).
I don't think that's true at all. How could the center of lift EVER be located somewhere other than on the wing?
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/aerodynamic-centre from Aerodynamics for Engineering Students which is freaking fascinating.
"The aerodynamic forces on an airfoil section may be represented by lift, drag, and pitching moment. At each value of the lift coefficient there will be one particular point about which the pitching moment coefficient is zero, and the aerodynamic effects on the airfoil section may be represented by the lift and the drag alone acting at that point. This special point is termed the center of pressure.
Whereas the aerodynamic center is a fixed point that always lies within the profile of a normal airfoil section, the center of pressure moves with change in lift coefficient and is not necessarily within the airfoil profile. "
None of the 4 fundamentals are fixed. All move. Thrust, drag, lift, gravity. More in our sports than any other use.
Aerodyamic Center is fixed but it is not useful for the purpose being discussed in the interview.
The big takeaway is, all rotation occurs not at the mast, not at any specified wing point, not at either lift center, but always at the COG. You could (likely would) listen to this interview and come away with another understanding. That may sound minor but it is not. This can be many inches in a game of centimeters.
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Adrian did mention that the most sensible place to mount the mast was directly above the front wing... However, after testing in the real world, they empirically seem to work better for control, namely turning.
Bill had posted about his guy earlier. He found the opposite and it looks pretty compelling. He has mounted directly into the foil and found only more maeuverabilty but he tried a lot of fuses, angles and variations to get it sorted. I see that kind of commitment as esssential when making this type of change.
He also made a plate to move his mast forward. A forward box/track/mount option is going to be mandatory. The correct back foot position for winging is behind the tail on unmodified boards. Chan had another 1.5 hour session on the Falcon and she is getting it down but her position to compensate is far from ideal and far from her normal winging position. Our swim missiles have 15 inch tracks which we also moved forward of Dave's standard position. Those are long enough, but on the next two boards, I asked Dave to go two inches further forward again.
In the interview Adrian had mentioned that many Axis riders had preferred even more forward positions (he mentioned 60 and 80 mm) but they settled on 40 for their advance fuse. Interesting because Axis cannot advance more than 40 mm without drilling through the carbon foils on most (all?) of their foils. That would mean to go further than 40 mm they would need to modify the entire line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycN_mw2ahJ0
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Had a really fun first session yesterday with the Foildrive. I used the Falcon foil and logged my first flights in years. They were brief but sweet! Once the prop is out of the water it was up to me and I need to work on the me part :). I wanted to do a glassy flat water day to learn the kit, but the way this summer is going that may be October :). Event site was solid but not full nuke. There were 1 to 1.5 foot swell but very tight.
I have the pod at 25 cm to start. I need to work on my box position and remote (hand) position because bluetooth was very spotty. My legs block the antenna if I use my new leg pad which centers my legs over the box and tail. I think the wet neoprene of my john is enough to kill the signal. The box itself is above water. If I have my legs off the side it works fine but then they are dragging and I lack a bit of leverage from them when I am up. I need to work that out.
It is supposed to be a strong week starting tomorrow. Swell and Hatchery aree supposed to reopen soon. We are going to try to get out east on a good swell day and I am STOKED to set this loose on a open face monster. Yeeeeoow!
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Dude, so good to hear you're foiling again. I love that these innovations are making this sport more accessible.
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Had a really fun first session yesterday with the Foildrive. I used the Falcon foil and logged my first flights in years. They were brief but sweet! Once the prop is out of the water it was up to me and I need to work on the me part :). I wanted to do a glassy flat water day to learn the kit, but the way this summer is going that may be October :). Event site was solid but not full nuke. There were 1 to 1.5 foot swell but very tight.
I have the pod at 25 cm to start. I need to work on my box position and remote (hand) position because bluetooth was very spotty. My legs block the antenna if I use my new leg pad which centers my legs over the box and tail. I think the wet neoprene of my john is enough to kill the signal. The box itself is above water. If I have my legs off the side it works fine but then they are dragging and I lack a bit of leverage from them when I am up. I need to work that out.
It is supposed to be a strong week starting tomorrow. Swell and Hatchery aree supposed to reopen soon. We are going to try to get out east on a good swell day and I am STOKED to set this loose on a open face monster. Yeeeeoow!
Your legs alone are enough to block the Bluetooth signal, but wet neoprene doesn't help.
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That sounds right. I have to actually take a surprisingly wide straddle to make it work. Without my legs on the board for leverage I think arm pumping will be difficult. I asked the Drive group on facebook for suggestions. I can get flying at low levels but haven't found much love above the pod yet. No real swell to assist yet, though. I may do another day before lowering the pod.
Dave let me know that the new boards will be ready next week. I am ready to go all in on arm power when those show up! I am going to swim in, on one of my own foils, and foil up on a gargantuan Gorge swell before my body completely quits on me. V2 of the Falcon will be done in a couple of weeks and that should help as well.
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/1.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/4.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/6.jpeg)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/7.jpg)
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/8.jpg)
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Backup plan idea….
Contact Lift. Ask about doing a one off custom longer board to support your legs.
I have buddies back in Florida that rarely wing anymore, due to all the epic wave sessions they get on Lifts. One buddy owns 2 battery packs and burns through both every day. They swear they surf awesome. Although I can see they do and don’t, if you get my drift.
We plan to go electric in some way down the road. Still waiting on them to get where I want them design wise.
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Backup plan idea….
Contact Lift. Ask about doing a one off custom longer board to support your legs.
I have buddies back in Florida that rarely wing anymore, due to all the epic wave sessions they get on Lifts. One buddy owns 2 battery packs and burns through both every day. They swear they surf awesome. Although I can see they do and don’t, if you get my drift.
We plan to go electric in some way down the road. Still waiting on them to get where I want them design wise.
Thanks Dwight. Yes, full efoil may need to be my sport of last resort, stay wet option. I feel like I have this season though. The guys on the Foil Drive forum were super helpful. One guy has extended his antenna externally and some others are wearing the battery as a belt with the cable running down to the pod unit and a second cord to keep the cable from acting as a leash. That sounds so rediculous that I must try it. Hah!
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Foil Drive will be powerful enough and batteries will last long enough for semi efoil I'll bet. Might never need the Lift. Though that's a great idea. There's a guy in LA with 5 Lift batteries I think so it's a thing for sure.
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He also has 3 boards. I'm pretty sure efoils are like Harley Davidson's. You can't just buy one and ride buy yourself. You have to buy enough so your friends will ride with you too.
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Very cool, though when you're done fucking around with those weenie foil drives we can bolt on some horsepower. And I've got two Bambu printers that aren't doing much lately if you want to speed production. My most recent filament dryer/heated chamber version is printing HTPA like it's PLA
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I've got two Bambu printers that aren't doing much lately if you want to speed production. My most recent filament dryer/heated chamber version is printing HTPA like it's PLA
That is great. Have you been able to get flat bases on large, solid parts with PAHT-CF? I have 4 1 kg rolls here that you can use.
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Yesterday I moved the pod down into efoil mode, just above the mast. Pretty cool. I love that the pod (and power) doesn't come out of the water unexpectedlly and the power is constant but man does it force the nose up in that position. I don't have a lot of tools to counter that. I spent most of the hour (1 battery) figuring that out. I think I need a gel pad of some sort to allow about an inch of movement. I can't really slide fore/aft on my current pad, although I need to. Lots of low foiling on the Falcon and really fun.
The Falcon foil, fuse and infinity tail are still holding up, even with the soon to be improved fuse joint. No signs of stress yet.
Chan winged on the little red foil (the smallest member of the modular system) with an Infinity tail and her small swim missile. That was cool to watch. She flew it across the river a number of times, although that narrow (17 inch board) looked super challenging on the surface. That foil may be really fun as well but it looks like it could also benefit from the new fuse joint and a larger stabiizer. So far she found the Falcon mnuch more consistant and easier to use. We are definitely bringing the weird. :)
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……but man does it force the nose up in that position.
Yeah, it’s a shit show standing too. Everyone compares remotes in the powered foil world. The smoothest trigger and control wins.
Some e-foil brands seem to be way better at a more natural trim, with less wheelie.
I’d love to try that new Takuma with motor and battery built into the fuselage. It’s been crickets since the first image of it leaked.
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Yes, the key is chamber heat=80C, bed heat (a little hotter than recommended), absolutely dry filament, and as wide a raft as I can fit.
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“ I love that the pod (and power) doesn't come out of the water unexpectedlly and the power is constant but man does it force the nose up in that position.”
Move the mast as far back as you can and you will notice a big difference..
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Today was very sweet!
I first tried the Axis 1150/400 with the Foil Drive and it was a wheelie fest. Went in to put on my 1100 with a new 310 mm tail that I made this morning :). It has a vertical stabilizer and is very similar to sailplane tails. Still a small tail but it has 30% more area and volume than the very small Infinity tails we have been using. Also a shorter and stiffer fuse (although nothing close to the new setup that is in the works). What a difference! Smoother takeoffs, easier to level and much longer flights.
Then Chan flew it with a 3.5 wing and she looked nice and level with none of the earlier foot and stance stuff. She looked rad light wind cruising (12 MPH).
This has me very stoked on the new fuse joint, stiffer fuses, larger infinity tails, etc. I need to get cracking!
(https://www.standupzone.com//gorge/gfw/falcon/IMG_2108.jpg)
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Was this the first “Real” extended flight with your homemade printed prototype front wing and tail?
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Was this the first “Real” extended flight with your homemade printed prototype front wing and tail?
Hi Beasho,
Yes, these were my first extended flights. Chan has been the real test pilot with her wingsurfing. She has now had the Falcon (box wing) and all 4 of the modular foils flying.
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Print to Ride in its purest form. The "Sailplane" tail that Chan was using (images above and this video is straight out of the printer. It is not sanded or coated in any way. I just picked off the crusties with my thumbnail and mounted it :). This is the same 1100 front wing that we have been using now since our first day. It has hit rocks, been dropped, transported, etc. Still foiling.
I post this vid to counter the suggestion in the podcast that takeoffs on a direct mount (mast into front foil) are challenging or require an ollie. The opposite is true. They glide off the surface with subtle tail pressure.
Also on stall speed, Chan's watch shows her foiling at as low as 4 MPH :).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTLWgJBuV3E
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yes, I didn't know what to make of Adrian saying that mounting the mast directly over the foil doesn't work. His explanation didn't make any sense at all either. Nice to have your data point that at least for the foil you designed, it works with mast directly mounted. We also have the fellow below who found the same thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycN_mw2ahJ0
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yes, I didn't know what to make of Adrian saying that mounting the mast directly over the foil doesn't work. His explanation didn't make any sense at all either. Nice to have your data point that at least for the foil you designed, it works with mast directly mounted. We also have the fellow below who found the same thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycN_mw2ahJ0
Yes, he is a great example of this working at a high level. He cost me some time though. I stole his barrel nut fuse connect on my update of the Falcon wing for faster, single screw, fuse changes. I like that better than what I was doing and the new thicker fuse joint will now support it. I went off the shelf though. M6 screw with a 10 mm barrel for inside my 15 mm carbon fuse ferrule which glues into the 19 mm outer fuse tube. That is a new 270 mm infinity tail as well which is 20% larger than the first tails and has .25 degrees more down kick.
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How the hell are you printing those double wingtips?? Tip on the plate with a lot of support, or wings on the plate with a lot of bridging and support?? That looks difficult. The rest, not so much though there would still be plenty of sanding.
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How the hell are you printing those double wingtips?? Tip on the plate with a lot of support, or wings on the plate with a lot of bridging and support?? That looks difficult.
It took me quite a few tries to make it work. They print standing just as you see them but on a huge forced raft. The support structure is much bigger than the part and you can't even see the finished part until you break it out. It has to be held perfectly still so the ends can air-join. It is really magical that it works.
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Hi Gneve,
Chan is 115 lbs and she likes the 84 liter board which is probably very close to what her SUP foil downwind size would be. I have no real frame of reference but based on her experience and the gains she saw over her 64 liter board I am guessing somewhere around 110 Liters for me at 170 lbs. I can get into the right swell on the 84 liter board but I would like to get the less perfect ones as well. We ordered a 100 Liter and a 110 to see how those go. They should be here in July. Dave has all of these designs on file and could easily fit one to your specs. He is great to work with.
Funny how the universe works in that I just picked up what I believe to be Chan's 7'7". Stoked to see if I can leverage this board to catch some outer sandbar waves here in Charleston.
I'm also considering this for light wind winging but balance could be tricky. Should be fun to try!
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Very stoked to see how that goes for you. We have the two bigger ones now that Dave made for us and they are unused so far. What turned out for to be a short window for me is up now, but Chan is going to keep on with the mission! I will be there to film :-)
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I'll report back when I've had a chance to give the board a go. Not sure what foil to start with:
- Unifoil Progression 140
- Axis ART1099
- Axis HPS1050
Leaning towards the 140 but open to suggestions.
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A friend just texted this image from down in Baja. I had sold him the two original swim missiles, and one of them ended up with this fellow. Reports are that he's killing it proning with hand paddles for downwinders. So stoked that it's going to good use :-).
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You were ahead of your time. Yesterday's downwind foil Maliko race was solid Kalama-style boards, AKA swim missiles.
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No video or photographic evidence, but I was able to try the 7'6" swim missile with the Unifoil Progression 140 out in the surf this weekend. While my intent for the board is to eventually try and prone DW, I wanted to see how it rode once up on foil.
Observations:
- paddle speed is pretty good but I hadn't prone foiled in months so I'm not in the best paddling shape
- when catching waves, if the board starts to heel in one direction, the board will start turning in the opposite direction (just like a small sailing dinghy). somewhat hard to recover when this happens
- once standing, the length helps keep the speed and you can almost adjust your feet before trying to get the board up on foil
- at 17" wide, foot placement is critical
- the board pumps better than expected (again, I'm not in great foiling shape at the moment)
In addition to prone DW, I think this board is going to be great for a few scenarios:
- REALLY small, barely breaking days where you just don't have the depth to catch anything on the inside
- breaks where it peaks up on the outside only to break like shorepound on the inside
Here are a couple of tracks from two of my better waves. I think Dawn Patrol is pretty terrible but it's the easiest app I've found to track prone foiling that doesn't require any editing afterwards: