Shoulder Pain

[photosettle]

Would love for some feedback on correct paddle technique / equipment.  I am 73 inches tall and have used a 82" paddle since I started.  My first paddle was a wood Sawyer paddle and i never had a problem.  I ordered a Shaka from Kialoa and my problems started after that... however i'm not 100% sure it is because of the paddle.  I will number my thoughts below and people can comment on what they feel the have insight on.

Paddle Solutions?
1.  Try shortening paddle?  I'm afraid to do this because it has always felt about right but maybe this is a solution?

2.  Go back to a wod paddle

Technique Solutions
3.  getting the paddle vertical for stroke keeps blade under board and paddling straight but requires your top shoulder to cross over your body.  Seems like this would add stress to the shoulder?  My small brain thinks that having your top and out in front of your shoulder would put less stress on it rather than your top hand reaching across the board to ensure a vertical entry and pull.

4.  Should the top arm be bent or straight?

5.  Where should the strongest part or your stroke be?  middle?

6.  Do you reach very far forward to put paddle in water or start a bit closer to your body?

7.  How far back do you pull?

I come from a swimming background and have also had 2 tramatic injuries to my shoulder so i doubt it all stems from Stand Up.  Thanks for any help or thoughts.

[KaiDogg]

Aloha,

I'll offer some of my own personal insights and hopefully they'll be of some help.  Like you, I have some  swimming experience (by way of triathlon and open-water swimming).  I tweaked my RT shoulder (rotator) in a snowboarding mishap about 12 years ago and as I've aged, that injury has begun to make itself known again in recent years.

1).  My 1st paddle was an all-fiberglass C-4, cut to 10 inches above my height.  I've since been paddling with a Kialoa Shaka Pu`u, cut to 7 inches above my height.  The intent was to use it more for surfing than for general paddling, however I'm beginning to find that the shorter length is easier on my shoulders, despite the relative stiffness of carbon, as compared to 'glass.

2).  Eventually, I'd love to get my hands on a wood paddle, if anything for comparative purposes.  I've read a lot of good things on this forum regarding the excellent damping properties of wood.

3).  Your line of reasoning regarding the top arm "crossing over" to get the paddle shaft to near vertical is on the mark; I guess it would depend on the nature of your shoulder injury.  Unfortunately, to keep the board from yawing excessively, you do need to keep as much of the blade under the board as possible.  One solution may be to take shorter and shallower pulls before changing sides, say 3-5 strokes per side vs. 7-10.

4).  Definitely a technique-oriented question best suited to leave up to the individual, but when paddling, I try to visualize what swim coaches always tell swimmers; to imagine yourself shimmying through a tiny opening in the water, planting your hand and pulling yourself past your hand, rather than "pushing" water past you.  For me, that translates to starting my pull with both arms fairly straight, I then try to visualize bringing my body (and subsequently, the board) past my hands, rather than "slapping" water out of the way to generate propulsive force.

Additionally, this is where I feel a shorter shaft may be more comfortable as it seems easier to reach out and forward to start the pull phase, rather than up and forward, as one must do with a longer paddle shaft.

5).  Again, if I'm visualizing the swimming thing, the most propulsive part of the stroke winds up being in the middle.

6).  Personally, I never "reach out" to grab water.  Just as far out as is comfortable.  The only exception to this may be if I find myself trying to get into a wave from behind, then the technique sometimes goes out the window...

7).  Almost never beyond where I'm standing on the board.

I'm sure others will be offering additional insight, but here's $0.02 from my personal experience.  Hope this helps!      - A hui hou

[DavidJohn]

Arrr...So many questions and so many answers.. ...I'll give you my 2 cents worth..(btw I'm no expert)..It wasn't long ago I was asking similar questions here.

To start with..How far you reach and how far you paddle depends on if you are sprinting (trying to catch a wave or to get through the surf)..or if you are casually cruising along on flat water.

I mostly paddle flat water and I don't reach that far forward..and I paddle past my feet till my lower hand gets to my hip..doing long smooth strokes.

When in the surf or sprinting I bend and reach as far forward as I can and stop well before hand reaches my hips..and do a much quicker shorter stroke.

I like to keep my lower arm straight and only have a slight bend in my upper arm (pushing forward)..during the power stroke..Here's a few pictures that might help.









BTW..I'm 6'4" and like a longer paddle..about 12" above my hight for flat water cruising..and a few inches shorter for the surf.

But paddle length also depends on a couple more things..Board thickness..Blade length..and how deep you like to paddle..etc..even body shape..

I also do the twist thing to try and get my left hand over the right rail when paddling on the right side..and visa versa.

I think a good general rule for paddle length is to have the point where the blade comes out from the shaft at eye level with the handle resting on the ground..shown here with my old home made paddle being the length that I like..and my Naish paddles being a little short.

I now use only the two Naish paddles..because I have made the white one adjustable and us it the lenght of my old home made job..and the other Naish is great for the surf.



Good luck with it...Shoulder pain is a bugger...I'm looking forward to see what others have to say about this topic.

DJ

[MST]

I don't know if it was my technique or not, but I started having shoulder pain last summer which I assumed was a combination of lifting my board over my head and paddling.  I t finally got so bad I went to see my orthopedist and found I had a bone spur which was aggravating my rotator cuff from overhead motion.  I had surgery in January and I just got back on my board last weekend.  Shoulder is still not 100% but I think the problem is cured.  Hopefully this is not your problem but better to find out sooner than later and let it bother you for months like I did.

[river]

If your shoulder is hurting:
Try padding with your elbow down on your top hand.  Doing the chicken wing (elbow at the same level or higher than the shoulder) will put more stress on the rotator cuff and make it sore if its got a pre-existing...
Keep lower arm straight.  Dont reach across you body but rotate your upper body to initiate the stroke.  Pull with your core and torso not all the little muscles in your arms and shoulders.  Just some quick points I just thought of before I fall asleep. 

[photosettle]

Any good videos to watch of propper technique.  Would be curious to watch River or others that have had paddling backgrounds from other sports. 

Any thoughts on cutting down the paddle from 9" overhead to smaller.  I'm really afraid to do this since other than shoulder pain... it feels about right, but I guess it would help keep the top arm a bit lower. 

Thanks for all the replies everyone.  I have taken a little something from each of your posts and look forward to trying some changes next paddle.

I'll let you know if i find the magic bullet.

[srfnff]

If you haven't already done it, first thing is to make sure your shoulder pain isn't physiological. If it is, all the technique and paddles in the world aren't going to fix it. You may need surgery to fix the shoulder. I had arthroscopic rotator cuff surgery a few years back to clean out the ball and socket area, fix some minor tears and remove scar tissue. It wasn't fun and it kept me out of the water for a few months but it did the trick. The shoulder still bothers me a bit after a hard day's paddle, but I can live with it and I can still SUP and surf.

If it isn't physiological, try an otter tail paddle with a narrow blade. This paddle has much less resistance in the water and is much easier on the shoulders and elbow joints. http://www.standuppaddlesurf.net/2007/11/24/infinity-surf-shop%e2%80%99s-otter-blade-stand-up-paddle-video/

A consistently practiced and well designed exercise program to strengthen the chest, back and shoulders might help as well.

Re technique, Nate Burgoyne's online mag ran a series of interviews with Dave Chun a while back that was pretty informative about paddles and paddling technique. It's worth watching. (Scroll down to "interviews" to find the four part interview.) http://supsurfmag.com/option,com_joomap/Itemid,80/

Whatever is going on with you is fixable I'm sure. Just a matter of getting to the right solution. Good luck!

[photosettle]

even w/ all the recent pain, i surfed almost 3 hours last weekend in small waves and somehow my shoulder feels better... not sure how that is.  However, i worked on the advice below while paddling.  I kept my top elbow bent and also focused on keeping my top shoulder from rotating too far across my body. 

However, most pain i've had has come from flat water paddling.  It seems to be less problematic with surfing.  None the less, i think the pointers below have helped the issue some.  I was really suprised that i really had no pain after a 3 hour session and that it actually felt better the day after paddling than it did the day before paddling. 

thanks for all the advice

[Poppy]

I too had shoulder pain, I tried and shortend my paddle a couple of inches so that I would start to paddle at eye level , after a couple of sessions the pain went away. worked for me
Aloha

[PonoBill]

I've said this before but my shoulders are junk. I paddle carefully, keeping my upper arm no higher than my shoulder and I pull to my feet and no further.

But for me the big solution is wood. I still use CF paddles a lot, but for longer paddles I want my Malama.

A word about surgery. Avoid it if you can. Do all the physical therapy you can manage before you undertake that course. the likelihood of infection these days is simply too high, and the ramifications are nasty. I nearly died, nearly lost my arm, and it's taken years to get strength back. Mark Raaphoorst (owner of the Ding King, and designer of the Ku Nalu, the F16, F18, paddler extraordinaire, etc. ) went in for a bicep surgery a few weeks ago and developed a MRSA Staph infection. I talked with him today, he said it was the most scared he's been in 25 years.

I told Mark before his surgery that he needed to pay close attention to potential infection after any surgery. I'd tell all of you the same thing. He didn't like the way things looked (and smelled) went in and insisted that they culture the pus from the wound, and they immediately admitted him to the hospital. I think he was there for at least a week, and he's still on intravenous antibiotics. I had to wear a pic line and an automatic transfusion pack for months.

Modern surgical techniques are wonderful, but not without risk.

No small thing, and it can happen in the best facilities

[Dwight (DW)]

I've said this before but my shoulders are junk. I paddle carefully, keeping my upper arm no higher than my shoulder and I pull to my feet and no further.

But for me the big solution is wood. I still use CF paddles a lot, but for longer paddles I want my Malama.

A word about surgery. Avoid it if you can. Do all the physical therapy you can manage before you undertake that course. the likelihood of infection these days is simply too high, and the ramifications are nasty. I nearly died, nearly lost my arm, and it's taken years to get strength back. Mark Raaphoorst (owner of the Ding King, and designer of the Ku Nalu, the F16, F18, paddler extraordinaire, etc. ) went in for a bicep surgery a few weeks ago and developed a MRSA Staph infection. I talked with him today, he said it was the most scared he's been in 25 years.

I told Mark before his surgery that he needed to pay close attention to potential infection after any surgery. I'd tell all of you the same thing. He didn't like the way things looked (and smelled) went in and insisted that they culture the pus from the wound, and they immediately admitted him to the hospital. I think he was there for at least a week, and he's still on intravenous antibiotics. I had to wear a pic line and an automatic transfusion pack for months.

Modern surgical techniques are wonderful, but not without risk.

No small thing, and it can happen in the best facilities

Ditto to the infection concerns. My wife said 2 people were recently admitted to hospital here with Strep (Yeah, the same as Strep Throat) infections in minor cuts in their hands. One person had her hand amputated after having the infection go from nothing to balloon sized within a day. Today, everyone must take infections seriously! Don't blow it off as nothing.

[MKemDC]

  If the shoulder pain is physiological there are a couple of things to do. Active Release Technique is the bomb! Works fast and FIXES the problem. There are also more dynamic stretches that really work the rotaor cuff (think major league baseball) as opposed to static stretches. I work on this stuff all the time as am a sports injury Chiropractor. Hope that helps.

[PonoBill]

I thought about what i wrote last night, and I think I went too far. If you need, or even just want surgery, by all means get it, but be very aware of the potential for infection afterwards. If I had been a bit more aware I would have been back in the hospital  days sooner and it would have probably been less of a big deal.

[MST]

I hear you Bill.  I went through modality and ultrasound treatments as well as physical therapy for 2 months  before I decided to go under the knife.  That worked well for me when I had golfer's elbow, but my shoulder just never showed any improvement.  It will be a long time before I do it again though - I just hope my rotator cuffs can hold out.  Cheers

[StandUpPaddleSurf.net]

The easiest fix for me was shortening the paddle.  I'm 72" tall and started with an 86" paddle because my friend told me I was tall and it would work.  He was new and that was not accurate.  I ended up cutting it to 81" and it was like magic.  Since I'm mostly surfing vs distance paddling I found the smaller length to be much easier on my shoulders.  I had a revelation when I went on a distance run with Todd B from C4.  His paddle was 75" and I was surprised that it was so comfortable for me to use.  Long story short, I went from 81" to 80" to 78" to 75" and now I may go to 74".  It's just preference but I don't have the shoulder problems that I had before. 

SRFNFF also has a point with the blade size although on my 8'9" I prefer the 8.5" blade.