Laugh at Trump all you want

[surf4food]

I'm not sure I agree with the notion of progressive being a catch all for liberal.  The majority of liberals I know (myself included) do not consider ourselves as "progressives".  We are in reality slightly left of center moderates.  Maybe I'm wrong but I consider a progressive father left leaning than a standard liberal.  Then again, as we have become more polarized that could be changing. 

[stoneaxe]

Seriously...to you progressive simply means open to new ideas to solve problems? So any new idea of conservatives you'll be open to.....

Like I've said before, our biggest problem are the idealogues at both ends of the spectrum and the fact that anyone that rises to power (or wants to) has to play their game. The reasonable solutions lay in the middle.

I've spoken before of the hour long show on NPR on the high rate of unemployment of young blacks (particularly men) that I listened to awhile ago because its such a great example of the current state of progressive thought. The panel of "progressives" spoke for the whole hour about the need for additional social programs and more money for inner city schools. Never once were illegal immigration or the destruction of the black family by welfare discussed. Two major causes of the issue don't even get mentioned? Very progressive thinking.

[PonoBill]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

I understand why people adopt it to describe their views. My point is that it's as meaningless as PC when it's used that way. Stick a different label on a fuzzy notion and you don't clarify the position. That's not a criticism of people's beliefs, it's just being precise about how people use labels.

[Weasels wake]

Gotta admit that the dems of today are nothing like the dems of the 60's, if alive today JFK would have been a solid centrist.
He understood the punitive nature of over taxation as well as his famous statement "Ask not what your country can do for you.........."
One big reason why I consider today's dems more progressive than liberal.
Why else is Bernie doing so well, it can't be nothing but hatred for Hillary?

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

Thanks for the clarification, Bill. I understand.

[spookini]

So any new idea of conservatives you'll be open to.....

Tighter borders -- southern wall
Real healthcare reform
Sensible gun policies
Immigration policy other than deporting 11M
Sustainable energy policy

Not a whole lot to choose from, actually.

[pdxmike]

Gotta admit that the dems of today are nothing like the dems of the 60's, if alive today JFK would have been a solid centrist.

Very true, and there are lots of examples besides JFK.  Same is true about Republicans.  Democrats today are quoting Ronald Reagan to show how some of his beliefs are more aligned with today's Democrats than Republicans. I read Independents are now as big a group as Republicans and Democrats combined, probably because so many people don't want to be associated with either party.

[Weasels wake]

So any new idea of conservatives you'll be open to.....

Tighter borders -- southern wall    Of course -- improvements are needed, but it doesn't have to look like the Vatican's wall
Real healthcare reform   Health insurance reforms were all that were needed, still are
Sensible gun policies   We already have them
Immigration policy other than deporting 11M   enforce the laws that are already in place, for a change, and w/o BHO's demands
Sustainable energy policy  of course, but no reason to put 1000's out of work to demand changes

Not a whole lot to choose from, actually.  Wrong

Not really sure why you needed to answer so many of you items yourself, using only your own assumptions.
Kind of insulting actually, so my answers to everything in red.

I'm a social libertarian and a conservative elsewhere, FYI.

[pdxmike]

Speaking as a progressive, I think the term became a popular descriptor in the early 2000s because the word "liberal" had been turned into a pejorative during the 1980s. It became a smear term, "That person is a liberal!" so the term progressive was adopted by liberals. The term PC "politically correct" refers to a kind of mish-mash of ways people alter their speech and behavior according to liberal ideas.

The objection to political correctness, which I share somewhat, is that it becomes a form of progressive censorship. There are two sides to this. One is the idea that you don't want people spewing hate speech or speech that hurts others. On the other hand, the level of sensitivity on this issue can get pretty out of hand. I remember laughing until I ached at Richard Pryor's racial humor. Dear God, that man was funny! But that kind of humor usually doesn't fit political correct thinking anymore, or any racial humor.

Racial/ethnic humor can be bad when it's underlying message is "Hey, look at all those stupid black/white/gay/Jewish/women/men. Aren't we better than them." But when that humor points out what's ridiculous about people in general — and every group has its share — then it's awesome.

Good summary.


PC thought is setting discussion of serious issues back decades.  In many ways, the 70s were further ahead of now in terms of being able to discuss race, whether in humor or otherwise.


You can make a good argument that PC thinking led to Trump's ascendency.  A lot of people supporting him don't necessarily agree with his ideas (hence the fact that so many are saying they're not worried that he'll actually do the things he talks about doing if he's elected).  But they feel like (thanks to the PC police) they haven't even been able to bring up issues that concern them without being labelled racist or ignorant just for bringing them up, until Trump came along. 

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

Can somebody fill me in as about something. I see PC thinking as annoying, a thing I have to pay attention to, especially when I'm on the job with kids. I was aware of it on my college campus a while ago, but how did it get to be this huge social force? What is it that people aren't allowed to say?

When I hear Trump talk, I hear two things. The first is an odd kind of social change which combines some good ideas, such as recalling NAFTA and a lot of trade deals which have raise havoc with American jobs. (I guess you have to combine this with the immigration issue, which feels more like a symptom of the loss of good jobs. If the jobs were there, we wouldn't be caring about it so much.) The second aspect of Trump is this strange performance art, which is an ability for Trump to let out whatever comes out of his mouth spew forth. Are people feeling so constrained socially that this performance is compelling?

[lucabrasi]

Progressive thinking?? 
Merry Christmas??


It is compelling I think because he doesn't seem to give a rats ass what anyone else thinks. Stuck his foot in his mouth the other night when trying to dance around questions with politician babble, which is the first time it seemed he was dancing instead of spewing tho not the first time he has stuck his foot in his mouth.
It is rather odd that there is some sort of social liberation with him so to say,  "can you believe what he is saying?"  while after the next commercial a story of Miley twerking or Britney breaking down may be on.

[pdxmike]

Can somebody fill me in as about something. I see PC thinking as annoying, a thing I have to pay attention to, especially when I'm on the job with kids. I was aware of it on my college campus a while ago, but how did it get to be this huge social force? What is it that people aren't allowed to say?

There are lots.  But also remember, for someone to feel attacked by PC thinking, that thinking doesn't need to be mainstream--it just takes some exposure to a few extremists.  I'm also not saying whether people are justified in feeling attacked, just that many do feel that way.

A few examples of things you WILL be attacked for sooner or later in Portland:
--saying Merry Christmas
--saying all kinds of remarks, positive or negative about race, gender or sexual orientation
--saying anything critical of bicycles or bike lanes
--saying anything about immigration short of letting everyone in and letting everyone stay and have full rights of citizenship...
--driving a SUV
--eating meat
--using the wrong term to describe a race or group of people (i.e. "disabled", "handicapped", "black", "African-American", "Asian", etc. can all generate criticism)
--calling a collision between a vehicle and a bike or pedestrian an "accident"
--driving a car
--not acknowledging your cultural advantage
--"cultural appropriation" (i.e. a white person with dreadlocks)
--eating, wearing or buying non-organic food, non fair-trade chocolate, anything made by Nike
--anything critical of the homeless
--using the word "homeless"
--etc.

The above are all things I've personally seen people criticized for here recently.

I think most people expect to get in trouble doing or saying, say, anything overtly racist or sexist.  It seems the frustration  comes from being attacked for saying or doing things that the person had no idea was wrong, especially when they feel they can't win (i.e. trying to say something they think is positive, but getting attacked).






















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[stoneaxe]

So any new idea of conservatives you'll be open to.....

Tighter borders -- southern wall
Real healthcare reform
Sensible gun policies
Immigration policy other than deporting 11M
Sustainable energy policy

Not a whole lot to choose from, actually.

And you just made my point.

[covesurfer]

A few examples of things you WILL be attacked for sooner or later in Portland:
--saying Merry Christmas
--saying all kinds of remarks, positive or negative about race, gender or sexual orientation
--saying anything critical of bicycles or bike lanes
--saying anything about immigration short of letting everyone in and letting everyone stay and have full rights of citizenship...
--driving a SUV
--eating meat
--using the wrong term to describe a race or group of people (i.e. "disabled", "handicapped", "black", "African-American", "Asian", etc. can all generate criticism)
--calling a collision between a vehicle and a bike or pedestrian an "accident"
--driving a car
--not acknowledging your cultural advantage
--"cultural appropriation" (i.e. a white person with dreadlocks)
--eating, wearing or buying non-organic food, non fair-trade chocolate, anything made by Nike
--anything critical of the homeless
--using the word "homeless"
--etc.

The above are all things I've personally seen people criticized for here recently.

I think most people expect to get in trouble doing or saying, say, anything overtly racist or sexist.  It seems the frustration  comes from being attacked for saying or doing things that the person had no idea was wrong, especially when they feel they can't win (i.e. trying to say something they think is positive, but getting attacked).
--

PDX, having lived and worked in Portland for almost 30 years, your list is spot-on. And hilarious, if it wasn't so true. That's why I love Portlandia, it parodies all of that. Amazing how they nailed it so well.

[PonoBill]

I love PDX's list, and I've experienced the same level of social censorship. For me it's an enjoyable experience, an opportunity to tell such delicate souls to fuck off. Make my day, tell me I can't say merry christmas. Some people are such babies, so convinced of their specialness that everyone should do as they believe. Who cares? They are a pleasure to ignore.

I think we all understand why Trump has gained support. People are frustrated with politicians. Unfortunately its a lot like being frustrated with the actions of police and supporting criminals. It's hard to believe that the presidential election process is so broken that these are our only viable choices. I've never heard anyone defend Hillary on her merits--only on issues such as electability as a defensive strategy against getting someone worse. No one wants her, they just don't like the alternatives.