Crowd source medical advice - the new world is here.

[Wetstuff]

I read a piece in last week's Economist.  Here's the link to the article and the site referenced.

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21651765-many-hands-make-diagnosis-work-crowd-will-see-you-now

https://www.crowdmed.com

The workings of the site are interesting but the real meat can be had by clicking on 'Solve Medical Cases'.   

Zooport's posting about vertigo triggered my memory of this.  Luckily, most of us are not quite as afflicted as cases on this site. 

Jim

[stoneaxe]

Interesting....I can definitely see it being helpful. I've found far too many docs simply direct you to what makes them $$$ or at least are biased and don't suggest alternatives. Much better to get many opinions.

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est

[SUPcheat]

Such crowd sourcing poses the same general problems as the internet poses about information in general.  What used to be a mystery (not enough information) can now becomes a puzzle (too much information. What is right, proven, considered, properly researched vs. what is exploitive, superstitious, false or extortive. How do you put the pieces together to fit correctly.).

Both mysteries and puzzles become rife with con artists relying on wishful thinking and limited understanding when there is a profit motive. How does an individual without medical sophistication even evaluate the data points of crowd sourcing?

A con man solves your mystery with false information/mythology made to appear real, or solves your puzzle with something directing you to his/her own gain. It's pretty common to denigrate the professionals and substitute magical thinking, especially with medicine.

Remember, con artists thrive and are often much wealthier and more persuasive than "legitimates", because they cater to wishful thinking and provide an act, script and movie set to exploit wishful thinking, especially the areas where information is incomplete and would otherwise require expensive, time consuming and burdensome actual research and analysis. The con artists don't waste their time, they just synthsize the result and give it the color of authority in exchange for your money.

[covesurfer]

Nice summary of the new 'information age', Supcheat. You pretty much hit the issue of living in the age of the internet squarely on the head, in my opinion.

[juandoe]

I tried reviewing some of the examples but since they don't actually give a true diagnosis, it is hard to know what to think.  They mostly come off as less than scientific.   Antibiotics for hip pain makes no sense.  I bet the crowd came up with chronic Lyme disease, something few lend credence to. 

I suspect it will devolve into a forum for fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.  Maybe Morgellon's central.  Perhaps there are some real diagnoses in there but I couldn't tolerate the pablum that I was wading through.

[PonoBill]

The web in general provides greater access to con men, but it was ever so to some degree--the modest cost of general media in the face of vast competition and lessened demand makes that an equally real a threat everywhere. Caveat Emptor--there's a reason that's Latin, it has always been a problem.

The opposite aspect is also true though. The web gives access to people who have real knowledge who otherwise might pass unremarked. In speaking about unrealized potential I used to say "The smartest person ever born is dying tonight of malnutrition in Chad." Farfetched, but potentially true. Couple that with the webs unprecedented opportunity to enable one to be a deeply successful autodidact and there is an opportunity for fresh views in crowdsourcing that are valuable and useful. Separating the wheat from the chaff is a problem. So is it a problem to look at a vanity wall of degrees and handshakes from distinguished personages and come up with the realization that you're dealing with someone who last learned something relevant in 1982.

[stoneaxe]

Anybody that is not researching their malady is a fool. Understanding options and the potential consequences of treatments and making the decision is yours....why would you NOT want as much input as possible? I understand the danger of snake oil salesman. But I actually think a site like this could be less likely to see that. Truthfully I didn't look much at the site, just the article, it's the idea of crowdsourcing that intrigues me. It's kind of like the zone....spammers will get their pants pulled down. That's part of the idea behind having a crowd...hopefully you have enough intelligent commenters to make the content worthwhile. Is the zone not a crowdsource? When someone comes on here asking about their SUP malady....what board/bag/PFD to buy, isn't the info better for its abundance? Aren't they likely to get as good if not better advice than from a shop that wants to sell the boards they have in stock?

[SuppaTime]

It is extremely valuable to get testimonials from the "crowd" about a variety of things, medical included. But there is a huge quality issue with that uncontrolled source and many people do not have sufficiently tuned BS meters to sort out the good from the bad. I feel comfortable with my ability to filter nonsense but what about everyone else? There are lots of people out there who can be too easily victimized by ridiculous Internet scams and BS. It is them I worry about.

[stoneaxe]

That is true. I have a friend who while otherwise intelligent believes hype way too easily. I'm a skeptic that likes to be informed.

[covesurfer]

That is true. I have a friend who while otherwise intelligent believes hype way too easily. I'm a skeptic that likes to be informed.

Oh boy, keep that guy away from Pono!

It took me a few months to realize I should not listen to anything your bro tells me unless I am well informed enough on the topic to filter out all the BS he serves up.

[SUPcheat]

The ideal behind crowdsourcing information is that the internet acts as a vast, parallel processing brain, accessing obscure information and exotic solutions for the group that otherwise would not be available any other way.  There is definitely something to that notion, and it is not completely without merit for some kinds of information and problem solving.  Certainly, that is a lot of what happens here in Standupzone.

However, having too much of the wrong information can be even more damaging and difficult to deal with than not having any 'free' information at all.

Crowdsourcing also presumes that everybody is of good cheer and good will and is not acting in any way to delude, lie or misdirect others.  Looking at any standard internet site shows that that does not always happen and the vast degree the internet can present information, it also introduces all manner of information pollution. Manipulation of internet site content by various strategies i.e. spam, straw man participants etc. is well documented at this point.

I know upper middle class people who, if you mention ANY symptom, they immediately claim to have it.  Such persons going on the internet are just going to forum shop symptoms to fashion their own designer disease states. They used to call them hypochondriacs.

Crowdsourcing this kind of anecdotal, testimonial based information can be worse than useless, it is a profound waste of time and brain energy.  With serious medical issues, it can be dangerous.

Crowdsourcing can rapidly turn into crowd-hypochondriacal-hysteria.  It also can turn into crowd harvesting for those guys with less than stellar ulterior motives.  Can anybody say Dr. Oz?

I personally would rather have good synoptic information from some sources without ulterior financial or political motives, but I guess that's my problem, filtering and processing the stuff to make decisions.  I always 'follow the money' first to eliminate bad data based on economic motive.

I guess it IS better to have the puzzle problem than the mystery problem.  I was raised in pre internet times, when word of mouth, books, libraries, and tedious methods of information gathering were the norm i.e. taking notes by hand, or if you were lucky, making a photocopy.  I didn't even start learning how to operate a computer until 1997, and that was for business.

[stoneaxe]

I understand the concern. It is certainly possible that more harm than good will come of it. I'm occasionally active on the forums that deal with acoustic neuromas. Primarily to evangelize the use of SUP as balance therapy. There is a pretty large percentage of the folks that are on there that seem to revel in misery and if I see someone post about magnet or hologram bracelets improving their health again i'm going to scream. On the flip side of that.....you won't see SUP being used as therapy by any professionals I know of but I'll be running clinics this summer to introduce folks to it.

[sterbo]

I'm with Pono and stoneaxe 100% on this.

As far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as 'too much information'. It's not about the info., it's about a given person's take on it. The Web, in this day and age, is the 8th wonder of the world when it comes to fast, free, and easy access to anything and everything an intelligent and inquisitive person would want.
Is there a significant surplus of ignorant, intellectually lazy people in this world that can't seem to get a clue and end up creating all sorts of messes because they heard this, saw that? Sure. But, sorry, that's the way it's always been and frankly, while it can sometimes muck up the works, tough shit. Give Darwin his due because in the scheme of things those that can't will fall behind and so be it.
Perhaps they'll have another go at it in their next life

[PonoBill]

That is true. I have a friend who while otherwise intelligent believes hype way too easily. I'm a skeptic that likes to be informed.

Oh boy, keep that guy away from Pono!

It took me a few months to realize I should not listen to anything your bro tells me unless I am well informed enough on the topic to filter out all the BS he serves up.

That's just for you. Boyum and I are trying to grow you like a mushroom. Keep you in the dark and feed you bullshit.

Crowdsourcing of anything is rife with problems, but it's also an unprecedented opportunity. Much like medicine itself. Seems like the drug that most likely to help you inevitably has anal leakage as a side effect.