Will it downwind? Yes or No?

[Area 10]

Well, a friend of mine who has this board (12-6 Red Paddle 2013) tried it on a downwinder where the sea was more confused than you had, and described the experience as "getting blown along by the wind rather than downwinding". When I tried it briefly having stepped right off a Bullet V1, I was actually surprised at how bad the experience was.

So I think we might differ in the criteria we'd apply in answering the question "does it downwind", because my answer in relation to this board, albeit with limited experience, would be "not really". To answer "yes" I'd want it to allow you to make sharp board direction changes to follow the bumps, and for the average amateur paddler to be able to take drops from about thigh high or more without pearling, and with control. I don't believe that this describes the ability of many inflatables (although many surf sups would be OK). But I've just bought a Starboard Tandem inflatable 16ft x 32" 450L and intend to try DWing that, so I'll let you know if that just gets "blown along by the wind" or whether the experience could really be described as downwinding according to my own criteria.

[PonoBill]

My brother recently asserted that he didn't think he's ever going to be able to do a Maliko run. In the process of thinking about what board would give him the required confidence and stability I realized that it's the venerable Starboard 12'6" X 30". Ideally it would be that board with a rudder, but really, it's such a controllable board that a rudder might just get in the way. No one would consider that a downwind board, but I've seen lots of people do their first Maliko on a big surfboard.

In thinking about that I realized what this thread is missing--and that's some objective criteria about what constitutes a useable downwind board. I bet if we thought about it some we could come up with a set. Ability to catch a glide in small, medium, large swells, ability to control the nose and keep from punching or pearling, basic stability, ability to hold a line across the face of a wave without rounding up or catching a rail, ability to cut across the wind and swell to get ashore, etc.

Obviously that's a bigger scope than Offshore was likely signing up for, but I think this is a pretty useful discussion. I believe downwinding is one of the most exciting elements of SUP. Unfortunately it's more restricted to specific kinds of conditions and water. Fortunately those kinds of conditions are actually pretty common--most places have wind sometime. Expanding the viewpoint of people who are getting a little bored with flatwater or want to extend their surfing into other avenues to help them see what kind of board is suitable for a first try at downwind without investing in a specialized board could be a significant benefit. I'm going to play around with some of the larger surfboards I own to try to isolate the design characteristics that make a board downwind acceptably.

I welcome your suggestions for what the criteria might be, and how it should be graded. With Offshore's permission I think this thread is the propler home for such an evaluation, but if he's rather stay true to his initial idea then we can start a new thread.

[DavidJohn]

Hey Bill the new 14x30" Glide would be perfect for Bob to do a Maliko run on..

As far as this thread goes.. " will it downwind? yes or no".. I'm thinking anything will.. Sort of..

But most boards would be like taking a BMX bike on a mountain bike ride.. Sure it will do it.. but.. NQR IMO..

[yugi]

... and then you have guys doing the gnarliest Mtn Bike races in the world on unicycles!

I like skiing extreme faces with [essentially] cross country bindings. Spices it up you know.

[Area 10]

... and then you have guys doing the gnarliest Mtn Bike races in the world on unicycles!

I like skiing extreme faces with [essentially] cross country bindings. Spices it up you know.

When I've finished downwinding on my inflatable, I like to cycle back to the starting point using a bicycle with the saddle removed. That way, the downwinding and the cycling give me similar levels of enjoyment.

[Off-Shore]

Some great feedback here, so I'm going to try and respond to as much as possible. Okay, I started this thread, but the Zone is all of ours.. where it goes it goes.. As Leo Szilard said, "A scientist's aim in a discussion with his colleagues is not to persuade, but to clarify." so let's get clarifying..

Well, a friend of mine who has this board (12-6 Red Paddle 2013) tried it on a downwinder where the sea was more confused than you had, and described the experience as "getting blown along by the wind rather than downwinding". When I tried it briefly having stepped right off a Bullet V1, I was actually surprised at how bad the experience was.

Area 10, I have jumped from an F16 to a Bullet 14v2 mid downwind, and felt a similar thing as I am sure you did going from your Bullet V1 to the RP 12-6x30.  There is no way I'd choose to take the RP12-6 Race iSUP or even the better (IMO) the RP14 Race Elite iSUP downwinding if I had access to a Bullet or F16. However when I travel, I often take the RP14, and now I know it downwinds (IMHO), if conditions were safe enough, and I was not going to hold other people up, I'd happily take it out. Maliko no, but a Bay crossing in Miami, yes..

So I think we might differ in the criteria we'd apply in answering the question "does it downwind", because my answer in relation to this board, albeit with limited experience, would be "not really". To answer "yes" I'd want it to allow you to make sharp board direction changes to follow the bumps, and for the average amateur paddler to be able to take drops from about thigh high or more without pearling, and with control. I don't believe that this describes the ability of many inflatables (although many surf sups would be OK). But I've just bought a Starboard Tandem inflatable 16ft x 32" 450L and intend to try DWing that, so I'll let you know if that just gets "blown along by the wind" or whether the experience could really be described as downwinding according to my own criteria.

Reading PB's, DJ's and your comments it does beg the question "What is downwinding?" and which of these boards can you really downwind, and which are just the town bike on the steep mountain bike trail? As DJ says, based on the 8 boards I've tested, it looks like anything can be ridden in a good downwind (and I'm like Yugi here, I like to spice it up, so I find it fun testing these). But in terms of measuring up to performing like a properly designed downwind board... IMHO only the RP 14' Race Elite at 26" wide comes close in the inflatable class. I look forward to seeing your 16ft x 32 tandem go though, as one day I am sure we'll see a properly designed downwind iSUP that may surprise us all..

[Off-Shore]

My brother recently asserted that he didn't think he's ever going to be able to do a Maliko run.

Obviously that's a bigger scope than Offshore was likely signing up for, but I think this is a pretty useful discussion. I believe downwinding is one of the most exciting elements of SUP.

Expanding the viewpoint of people who are getting a little bored with flatwater or want to extend their surfing into other avenues to help them see what kind of board is suitable for a first try at downwind without investing in a specialized board could be a significant benefit.

I welcome your suggestions for what the criteria might be, and how it should be graded. With Offshore's permission I think this thread is the propler home for such an evaluation, but if he's rather stay true to his initial idea then we can start a new thread.

PB, I'm totally cool where this thread goes. I'm going to continue testing out boards as and when friends can lend them to me and conditions permit. I'm no board or downwind expert (as can be seen), so I want to keep the vids light hearted and not too analytical or serious. I'm glad they have provoked some discussion about what really constitutes a board that can downwind, and look forward to seeing where this goes

I'm totally with you on, "Expanding the viewpoint of people who are getting a little bored with flatwater or want to extend their surfing into other avenues to help them see what kind of board is suitable for a first try at downwind without investing in a specialized board". This is part of the reason for testing older and all round boards, that may be easier to pick up on the 2nd hand market. If you are starting to downwind and may only downwind a few times a year, then breaking the myth you need a specialised (and expensive) downwind board to either use on a regular basis or to get into the sport is IMO a good thing. Sure it won't be a Naish Glide or a SIC Bullet, but if you get into it (and it happens fast), then you are going to want to upgrade to the best you can afford for the conditions you have.

I've taken around 20 people in the last year on their first downwind, and for the surfers, and back country skiers and snowboarders amongst them, it has been "Holy crap.. I never knew you could do this!" Of course the next thing is "What board do I need?" Then it stalls when they realise the lead time, cost, storage etc etc. Those who have a board or access to a board that can be paddled downwind, upgrade fairly quickly to a proper downwind board. If they want to go out in the bigger stuff, and stay with the pack, it is the only safe way.

[stoneaxe]

I was thinking about that after having said it. I've been out on my Vec in some pretty crazy conditions here and the next time I come out I'm definitely going to see if I can find a board to use that works for me to do a Maliko. I actually thought about the 12-6...great board but it would be SO slow. I can't keep up with the crew there on a 14'er. You would have to go have lunch and come back to pick me up in a few hours if I was on the 12-6. I remember how much faster I was on that southside run we did than Alan (shapeshifter) on the 12-6 when I was on Gumby, and Gumby was only 12' if i remember correctly. Difference was that Gumby was made for DW.

DJ's idea of the Naish sounds like the trick, that or something similar. I was always interested in the Angulo Shaka for that reason. I think I have an ideal board in mind though.....take the board Bill made for admin that was at the downwind showcase and blow it up to 16 x 30. Granted we didn't test that board in any tough conditions but I was shocked at how comfortable I felt on it.

funniest post of the day...

When I've finished downwinding on my inflatable, I like to cycle back to the starting point using a bicycle with the saddle removed. That way, the downwinding and the cycling give me similar levels of enjoyment.

[spookini]

Area10, would it be incorrect to label you as a DW elitist?? 
Very few of us have access to the conditions or resources needed for the type of DW'ing you're talking about.

Then again, many of us do 'surf'.  (Ankle to waist high, straight down the line w/ a few wiggles here and there.)
A surf purist would shake their head and say, that ain't really surfin'! 
But it's surfing to me 

[yugi]

...
funniest post of the day...

When I've finished downwinding on my inflatable, I like to cycle back to the starting point using a bicycle with the saddle removed. That way, the downwinding and the cycling give me similar levels of enjoyment.

well played, Area

[spookini]

I'm w/ Off-Shore.  I have the Red 14' elite, it does catch bumps pretty well ..though if you're not quick to get back, the nose will Red October.

Anyone see my leash?

[PonoBill]

The thing about Malikos is that when the wind is good, a coconut will make it to the harbor in about three hours. But anything you're not falling on and catching bumps with will be reasonably fast. Unless your name is Kalama, Baxter, Blish or Lenny you are not going to catch the Bullets on something other than a Bullet.

So OK, we'll start it here and see where it goes. Next downwind I do, unless conditions are amazing, is going to be on something less than ideal. Here's a start on the reporting criteria:

Run Length:
Time:
Conditions:
Board:
Length:  Width:   Thickness:
Style:
Weight:
Stability:
Glide performance-- small:
medium:
large swells:
Nose control--maneuverability:    Punching or pearling:
Holds a line across the face of a wave without rounding up or catching a rail:
Ability to cut across the wind and swell to get ashore:
Death roll:
Crosswind:


Any more?

[yugi]

color

[yugi]

So... for example:
...does a high "death roll" score mean it excels at spitting a rider off or does it mean the rider is invincible?

[balance_fit]

So OK, we'll start it here and see where it goes. Next downwind I do, unless conditions are amazing, is going to be on something less than ideal. Here's a start on the reporting criteria:

Run Length:
Time:
Conditions:
Board:
Length:  Width:   Thickness:
Style:
Weight:
Stability:
Glide performance-- small:
medium:
large swells:
Nose control--maneuverability:    Punching or pearling:
Holds a line across the face of a wave without rounding up or catching a rail:
Ability to cut across the wind and swell to get ashore:
Death roll:
Crosswind:


Any more?

Some other criteria:

Volume, whether the board is displacement or planning, fin type and size. Regarding stability, are the criteria primary vs secondary ?