Downwinder, New F-16, F-14's, Foote 14, Penetrator run, etc.

[stoneaxe]

I'd be bummed that the board was beat up but shit happens. How would other boards that long come out of having a big wave smack on it? The fact that it has performed so well everyplace else is a testament to the design. I wonder how the shorter penetrators would fare at Maliko? Would it make a difference?

[Byronmaui]

Since Sam Pa'e did not start this thread I can go off topic with the Penetrator thing a little....

I really see a train wreck happening with the penetrator and feel bad for Stuey. The Penetrator probably should not have been out there Saturday in those conditions with a beginner and then passed around like a 2 dollar whore in pretty rough conditions. I think that was boltuprights first time on the thing and in those conditions had no time to learn how to use the board and a rogue wave or bump took him out. Most mortals would have failed miserably without practice.

Ponobill you should really rethink this whole penetrator thing and the approach. Instead of passing the penetrator from race to race to different drivers why don't you get one driver and let him practice, practice, practice then go out for the race. If not someone maybe you should just focus on the board and practice, practice, practice,etc then race it. Taking baby steps would probably get better results. There are plenty more contests coming up on Oahu, Maui, etc. that you or your driver can show how good, bad, decent, great, etc. the board is. Maybe talk to Laperourse or someone will be available and try to get them to ride it for the whole season then you can really gauge this board. Just my thoughts on this matter.

I was not wanting to speak but feeling bad for Stuey. Flame suit on so be easy on me fellas.

Aloha

Byron

[StandUpPaddleSurf.net]

Stoneaxe - The wind graph I really need is the Diamond Head one which looks like it's currently down.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Byron - That's probably a good suggestion.  These 18'+ boards feel so different and changing in mid session is pretty hard, even for experienced riders. 

[warped]

Ponobill you should really rethink this whole penetrator thing and the approach. Instead of passing the penetrator from race to race to different drivers why don't you get one driver and let him practice, practice, practice then go out for the race. If not someone maybe you should just focus on the board and practice, practice, practice,etc then race it. Taking baby steps would probably get better results. There are plenty more contests coming up on Oahu, Maui, etc. that you or your driver can show how good, bad, decent, great, etc. the board is. Maybe talk to Laperourse or someone will be available and try to get them to ride it for the whole season then you can really gauge this board. Just my thoughts on this matter.

Aloha

Byron

I also agree with Byron, especially since Stuey himself mentioned a few times that the Penetrator would take some getting used to and that he had hoped somebody would log the appropriate amount of practice time to really bring out the performance that the board is capable of.  I'm sure that'll happen though, and over the course of the next few months we should really be able to see how this board measures up to the others.  I do also understand why it's getting passed around right now - when somebody gets a new toy, everybody wants to play with it. 

[FB1]

Ponobill you should really rethink this whole penetrator thing and the approach. Instead of passing the penetrator from race to race to different drivers why don't you get one driver and let him practice, practice, practice then go out for the race. If not someone maybe you should just focus on the board and practice, practice, practice,etc then race it. Taking baby steps would probably get better results. There are plenty more contests coming up on Oahu, Maui, etc. that you or your driver can show how good, bad, decent, great, etc. the board is. Maybe talk to Laperourse or someone will be available and try to get them to ride it for the whole season then you can really gauge this board. Just my thoughts on this matter.

Aloha

Byron

I also agree with Byron, especially since Stuey himself mentioned a few times that the Penetrator would take some getting used to and that he had hoped somebody would log the appropriate amount of practice time to really bring out the performance that the board is capable of.  I'm sure that'll happen though, and over the course of the next few months we should really be able to see how this board measures up to the others.  I do also understand why it's getting passed around right now - when somebody gets a new toy, everybody wants to play with it. 

You guys are on track. However part of R&D is to get multiple users feedback at different skill levels in order to collect data for future performance fine tuning.

Testing a product to it's limits is also important, but the conditions described in this failed test sound like the riders were partially the cause. The board may or may not have failed due to the conditions but the conditions should have been the only variable, not the riders.

[noa]

in the pictures we see Cadiz riding an F 18. how does he make that board work on Maliko and how does it compare to the shorter F series  when the swell grows a little ?

[noa]

[/quote]

On this run there was a fun sized following wind swell, but there was little to no ground swell.  Even so, At shallow outer reefs like Spartans, the wind swell was occasionally stacking up pretty good and pulling them more towards shore so they were kind of acting like waves there (with enough gumption to almost 2 piece Bill's Penetrator). 


[/quote]

what was the average swell size ? how much time where you actually surfing compared to displacing ?

[Admin]

Rand et al - What did you think of the Penetrator?

The Penetrator is a mind bender.  I spent only a couple of miles on it, but I am happy to share how those miles went.

First off, I paddled out of Maliko talking with Bill and I got to see how the board sat in the water with him on it.  I watched him paddle it, and thought how fast it was gliding in the flat water of the protected gulch (with almost no effort), and how comfortable he looked on it.

Flash forward now to where Bill and I switched boards. 

There was a good wind swell running with the better swells at shoulder to head high and loooonnnnnggg.   It was blowing in the mid 20's and gusts were coming consistantly at over 30.  I get on board, pop up, and I am immediately surprised by how drastically the board rolls from rail to rail.  I am equally surprised by how there is an end point to these rolls and how what seemed like it might throw me was recoverable.  Once I knew what to expect, it was pretty straight forward to anticipate the board's action and I found I could correct for it with my hips.  So, I turn and paddle for a swell....

Next big surprise.  Holy shit.  This thing paddles with almost no resistance.  I mean it took almost no effort to catch these big runners.  A couple of little half checks with the paddle, and I'm in. I would get to the back to keep the nose just above the upcomers, and found that the board was nicely responsive to foot pressure.

Now the trick.  On the really good glides, when I was comfortably in, and back in position, I could feel the board rise up in the water.  When it did it started to swim and wander.  I had to rely heavily on a mixture of a paddle drag and a brace to keep it controlled (twice my efforts failed, and it chucked me).   I could not help but thinking that if I had another 20 lbs, that my weight would have settled it down a lot and kept it from riding up.

When another rider got on it at about 155 lbs, the board rode even higher in the water, with the rounded rails completely exposed even when not gliding.  That made it look like the effective width was now really narrow.  Also the degree of the dips before the catch that I mentioned above seemed to rise, making them more work to recover from. 

Some final shite.  For myself, I found that in this condition, the benefit of the ease of entry and the smooth glides, was marginally outweighed by the moments of wildness and the amount of balance maintainance that was required.  My guess is that this board would have a condition on the Maliko run (probably 15-20 mph with a smooth swell) where it would be unreal.

[PonoBill]

I hope everyone understands that my intention in getting this board here is to see what it's got, I think that was Stuey's idea as well. So far the answer is "a hell of a lot". I certainly don't think the Penetrator "failed" it's Maliko test, I think the kook paddling it did. I really had no idea what to expect. As I explained I've been doing upwind/downwinders a long time, but they are NOTHING like a real downwinder. If I had realized that I would have been on the widest, most stable board i own and Larry or Jeremy would have been on the Penetrator.

At any rate, the board is being fixed and we'll continue playing with it. Personally I think it's an amazing design, in the conditions I'm comfortable in it makes a 250 pound geezer look fast. That's magic. It's also come in second in it's first two races, right behind a well-respected racer Kiwi (Mark) Jackson on a very special ultralight 18 foot board. Jeremy had about 15 minutes with the board before racing it, Larry had two short runs on the south side.

I will take Byron's recommendation seriously. I'll talk to both Larry and Jeremy and see if they'd like to dedicate some time to mastering the board. I know Larry is nursing his hurt shoulder and Jeremey seems to be working on a speed record for his impossible 12'6" board, but I'll see what they say.

I do like the "two dollar whore" line, made me laugh already and I haven't even had my coffee yet.

[Byronmaui]

You guys are on track. However part of R&D is to get multiple users feedback at different skill levels in order to collect data for future performance fine tuning.

Testing a product to it's limits is also important, but the conditions described in this failed test sound like the riders were partially the cause. The board may or may not have failed due to the conditions but the conditions should have been the only variable, not the riders.


[/quote]
I respectfully disagree with the rider being the cause in this case. Yesterday I was at the riders house picking up a battery and the incident came up so I decided to interrogate him with my 15 month old snot nosed daughter. I heard the story from him and from what I gathered if upright bolt aka. supophile (ficticous names to protect the innocent) had not ditched the board then the penetrator would be in the forum 9 foot fad or future section. This fellow has done Maliko over 50 times so he is pretty familiar with the area and a pretty good rider.

I agree R& D needs to be done but you don't give someone the keys to a porsche at Monaco who has never driven a porsche and say "Keep up with everyone". Not trying to beat the dead monkey just trying to maybe provide a direction for the R&D so the penetrator can get a fair shake.

ALoha

Byron

[PonoBill]

I'm kind of fond of watching dead monkeys be beaten, but that's just me.

I think ANYONE can get caught by a wave in Maliko, which explains my panicked paddles for the outer reaches every time I spotted whitewater. I DO NOT think it was BoltUprights fault that the Penetrator got pounded. It's an unforgiving place. Regrettable incident, but these things happen you wander away from shore.

I also think that you misunderstood FB1's statement. I think he was agreeing with you Byron, that we should pick someone good, and put the board in his care for a while so we can eliminate the rider as the variable and let them gain enough mastery of the board so they can let it shine. I think Mark Jackson would be the perfect choice since he's near enough to my weight to make the waterline work and powerful enough to make it fly. I'd say you should do it, but with your weight it would be floating like a cork.

[Bolt Upright]

Aloha Zoners,
1st off I want to apologize to Pono & Stuey.
I am sorry to say that I am the the one who broke the Penetrator.
Conditions on Sat. where pretty epic, and I was having a blast on my custom F14.
Obviously I have been very intrigued by the P575. So when Randy asked if I wanted to try it I jumped on it (figuratively & literally). Problem was we were at the most challenging part of the run... outside Spartans reef. One the premier tow in spots on Maui. I felt I was outside far enough, so I began to paddle. I was impressed on how easy it was to push the board foward and easily drop into glides. Another thing that I noticed was how quite it was, I was not hearing the waves slap under the board. One of the problems for me I think is that I weigh about 145 lbs. And the board was sitting pretty high in the water. Also with the swell, the side chop and 30MPH wind gust it was definitely a handful. I fell numerous times and some really big swells passed under me knocking me off the board again, that's when I saw the last wave of the set coming already feathering (estimating double overhead) so now it's official... I'm in the impact zone...crap!!! .
I had time to get on the board and dive under the wave as it hit. I felt a tremendous pull on my leash leg as I prayed "please don't break".
I was praying for the leash (it was very thin, thinner now i think) I should've said a little prayer for the board too!
I looked to see no more rouge sets coming, so i made my way towards camp 1, where Randy and I stopped and waited for Pono.
I must say I was very happy to be back on my board, still having no idea that the P575 was damaged.
When we all made it back to the harbor,  Pono discovered the awful truth. I fessed up to the very high probability that it was most likely the above described event that was the cause of the gnarly looking crease.
To my great relief Pono was very gracious and quoted I very wise man who once said "Sh@# happens".
So I think Byron has a good idea to have someone like Jeremy Riggs spend some quality time on it, and see what he can do with it on a smoking Maliko day.
Jeremy currently rides a 12'6"x 24" custom Foote board, and he routinely beats a lot of good F 16 paddlers, and has won every Stock class Maliko race he has entered. If anyone could master the P575 he could. He has told me he would love try to do so.

Again, apologizes all around...I would like to caulk it up to "wrong place wrong time" scenario.

I'm sure Mark R will have it repaired and in the water soon...And let the games begin!!

Randy

[Byronmaui]

I'm kind of fond of watching dead monkeys be beaten, but that's just me.

I think ANYONE can get caught by a wave in Maliko, which explains my panicked paddles for the outer reaches every time I spotted whitewater. I DO NOT think it was BoltUprights fault that the Penetrator got pounded. It's an unforgiving place. Regrettable incident, but these things happen you wander away from shore.

I also think that you misunderstood FB1's statement. I think he was agreeing with you Byron, that we should pick someone good, and put the board in his care for a while so we can eliminate the rider as the variable and let them gain enough mastery of the board so they can let it shine. I think Mark Jackson would be the perfect choice since he's near enough to my weight to make the waterline work and powerful enough to make it fly. I'd say you should do it, but with your weight it would be floating like a cork.

My bad sorry FB1.....I am not a good candidate Bill...I suck and am focusing on the 12'6 range. Blaine has me intrigued with his 12 PSH gun and maybe when the winter season is over I can try it but for now playing with SIC one off's.
Aloha and good luck.

Byron

[Admin]

in the pictures we see Cadiz riding an F 18. how does he make that board work on Maliko and how does it compare to the shorter F series  when the swell grows a little ?

Our little group of non-expert downwinders, has all taken Maliko runs or partial runs in solid conditions on a variety of boards in the 17 to 18+ range.  It would be impossible to group all of these boards as they can be completely different from one another, and also the Maliko run has a lot of faces, so what rips one day may be a huge hold-back on the next.  If the thought is there that a given rider might jump on an 18 footer, however, and be consistantly and wildly faster than on a good 14 or 16, that is probably wrong.  The truth is that there is still give and take with each, and the bottom line is that no matter what you gain, you still need to control 18 feet of board in some shifty conditions.  There is usually a weight penalty, and watch the nose, because that swell in front of you is now 4 feet closer. 

Two of the very best Maliko guys, with 10 times the # of runs that any of us have done,  have said they feel that 14 and 16 feet respectively are the fastest lengths for them and they primarliy spend time versioning those lengths. 

PS:  The Wind Graph link is below.  That and the cams are really good indicators for our run.  The data comes from the Airport tower, which is right at Kanaha.  For other areas, have you looked at:

http://www.iwindsurf.com/windandwhere.iws

http://www.mauiwindcam.com/

[PonoBill]

The leash is not only thinner, it's a lot longer, and it's no longer coiled. In spots it's down to the diameter of a phone cord. You wuz lucky, dude. I'm going to give you that leash next time I see you, should be a lucky charm, just don't stick it on a board, I wouldn't trust it on a boogie board now.

Spartan's scares the crap out of me. Almost bought it there in a Hobie Adventure Island http://www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog/activities/hobie-adventure-island-a-trimaran-kayak-you-can-sail-paddle-or-pedal/  Barely made it over a feathering wave that looked bigger than Jaws from my tiny little boat.