Stroke Technique; Staggered Stance

[PonoBill]

If the stagger stroke is so much better, why isn't he winning the 2000m? 

I think it's mostly a sprint thing. You spend a lot of time on the change-over. I've watched some races--particularly the BOP--where it was clear that a clean, fast switch is important. As always, a math thing. I figure the paddle switch time difference between stagger and side-by-side is perhaps 1 lost stroke out of 50. If a stroke is ten feet and the race is 500 strokes that's only ten strokes or 100 feet that you have to make up by being 2 percent faster on the board. If it's 5000 strokes it's 1000 feet and you have to be 2 percent faster for the whole race to make that up. I think that's easier to maintain in a sprint. Plus I find the hip thrust thing to be limited to sprints anyway. Tuckers me out fast.

[Easy Rider]

Also makes sense on Connor's "choke up" grip for when he sprints.
Puts you lower and enables a very fast cadence.

[XLR8]

Pono are you saying the switch is slower because you are adjusting both your paddling side and your stance?  I've been working on that transition and, although your math seems to be better than mine, I sure agree it's tougher to get a  smooth switch.

When paddling with a parallel stance my switch seems to not even alter my cadence or anything.  It's totally built into the recovery.

In staggered stance it's much tougher.  I've tried simultaneously switching paddle sides and the feet, that's tricky.  More natural is to do the quick hand switch as normal and then a quick cross step adjustment.  Still, I feel I lose time.

[justingordon]

So what do you do about a ruddered board?

I moved my rudder on my Naish '17 as far forward as possible as that is the fastest position in flat water. However, now that we're getting 25+ mph winds in Maui, I have to jump back all the time when riding swells. That Naish 17' is a handful in 25+! However, I'm loving the challenge, even if I fall a bunch.

Another interesting tidbit is that I've noticed a number of riders using switch stance for steering. I'm goofy foot, but I find it more comfortable to steer with my left foot, and thus have more board control with my right foot. I think Livio does the same. I however, put my coil leash on my right leg, as I hardly ever switch back to goof stance for riding a swell unless it looks like a real breaking wave (like Kanaha).

Aloha,

Justin
http://www.sugarranchmaui.com

[hbsteve]

Parallel stance is easy after you figure out the proper width & where is the center balance point of the board.  This staggered stance is complicated.  Ponobill talked about the time spent shifting feet.
I have been practicing a staggered stance where the distance from the back of the front foot to the front of the rear foot is less than 1'.  But, I continue to paddle on both sides.  I do switch which foot is forward, but after several minutes, to balance the workout.
Now, I paddle the same course about once a week.  Since I have started with the staggered stance, my course time has improved slightly.
At the end of the workout, I feel my body has worked more..  Also, I just realized, my feet no longer get that tingling feeling.

[Takeo]

I too have used the three mentioned paddling techniques, and the staggered stance.  I'm finding that the key to improving paddling speed is knowing which to use, in what conditions, and having the ability to switch techniques to give muscles rest when you need the rest. 

The staggered stance definitely allows one to engage hip rotation, core, and leg muscles but you do sacrifice some stability in rough open ocean conditions when the swells are disoraganized or coming from the side.

[lazymodo]

Larry Cain, a former Olympic gold medalist (from Canada), won the 12'6" division at the Cold Stroke Classic SUP race in January.  Look at this photo of his stance.  Great write up of this event on Joe Bark's blog (January archive).  

The Gentleman in the photo has his inside foot half on the deck of the Bark and his back foot toes pointing out, right about at the heel of the inside foot.Well maybe a little wider.

[luciesdaddy]

anyone know which Youtube video shows the Todd Bradley stroke?

[chrislee]

I'm not sure if this is the exact Todd Bradley stroke video that folks were referring to but it definitely shows him doing the bent arm, pushing stroke. Seems like a lot of triceps work to me?

[PonoBill]

I think it's a difference more in degree than in absolute black and white technique. Todd used to have a video somewhere for C4 where he showed a fairly stiff body position and using the upper arm in a thrusting movement to drive the paddle. That makes a nice changeup, but it's very tiring, especially in your triceps and shoulders.

What he's showing here is more like the shoulder stacking technique that Dave Kalama teaches. Dave uses a slightly bent upper arm to extend his reach but doesn't drive it forward as radically. The power comes from torso and shoulder rotation, not from arm muscles. Big muscles with a lot of leverage vs. small muscles with not so much. I think Todd is focusing on the wrong elements of the Tahitian stroke. He's got a thing about that upper arm drive.

When I watch Tahitian paddlers stroking, what looks like the source of their power is a hard catch (blade angle steep), a vertical blade angle throughout the power stroke, and the shoulder and hip rotation in the first few inches of pull. Then they get the blade out by pushing it up with their lower arm and throw it forward again. The mechanics of the stroke are near perfect--spreading the workload out, using the muscles with the best leverage or the best extension.

The problem with using a lot of body rotation is that the recovery is slower--you can move your arms quicker than your core body. That's why it's important to pull the paddle early and use the lower arm to drive it back to the front of the board or boat while the body is un-rotating. People who have power to spare can stroke longer, but then they need to have great technique and speed to get the paddle back to the front of the board quickly.

Take a look at the video on this page of Taaroa Dubois. Besides being a fricking powerhouse, his technique is wonderful. His upper arm is bent and he stacks his shoulders as much as you can in a canoe. Sometimes he pushes his upper arm forward at the end of a stroke, but generally the movement of the upper arm is down. Watch his lower arm toss the paddle forward after he lifts it from the water. The lifting of the paddle, like drawing a sword from a scabbard, is more pronounced on a SUP than a OC, but it's there--he doesn't wing his paddle. It draws straight out of the water.

Marvelous video. The kid is amazing.

http://vivaa.ca/library/races/53-sprint-paddling.html

Sorry, can't embed this one.

[Kaihoe]

That's a crazy amount of power he generating.  I wonder how much of it is coming from the legs, like Conner's bounce? 

I think the leg movement is also helping with getting the upper body over the paddle on the catch, letting him lean into it.  If you watch he seems to be pulling his legs forward as part of the catch, its really noticeable on the change over as the forward movement is delayed. Towards the end that his forward and upward movement on the recovery is matched by the boat leaping out of the water, this has got to be reducing the drag.

I feel a technique session coming tomorrow

[PonoBill]

I wonder how long it's going to take for the Tahitians to realize there is prize and sponsorship money available in SUP. I'd pay to watch Tarooa race a SUP board. Though it's unlikely he could be distracted from the Tahitian paddling organization. They do an amazing job. There are great paddle coaches in Hawaii, and canoe racing is a big deal, but it's everything in Tahiti. These guys literally have thousands of years of tradition and history in every stroke.

That video, by the way, is from the 500 meter world championship single va'a race where Tarooa won by THREE BOAT LENGTHS. Roughly 30 meters in 500 meters against the very best in the world. That's dominance. That's a whole different level.

[JC50]

When TD smoked those world Sprints in Sacramento it was amazing. At the time I was heavy into OC6/OC1 (although Sprints are V1) and we watched that video until our screens burnt out. Thanks for sharing, Bill. Just looking at the vid makes me want to run out and jump in my OC1 for some pulls. Love the leg drive too, eh?

Agree with you on differences in what we see (when watching somebody paddle) and what we think (when you are paddling). There will always be a degree of arm bend for natural movement, but you want to think of straight arm to incorporate larger muscles. Like the metaphoric thinking of planting padding in cement and pulling yourself to paddle rather than pulling paddle through water to you...same thing is happening from the onlookers' view, however your brain sends different messages to different muscles....at least that's the way it feels to me.

On the topic of the catch...I was coached that if you reach way out, then reach a bit more you extend the large muscles (lats) and they sort of flex on their own at top of catch while you drive the shoulders. Those few inches of powerful torque are about the most efficient for the effort throughout whole stroke. So it's easy to see why so many people focus on that portion, especially during extended endurance runs.

[hbsteve]

It was hard to clearly see the other paddlers' technique.  But, it appeared that he pulled his paddle out of the water further foreword than the others.  This does several things:  It does not allow the OC1 to slow as much between strokes, it automatically increases his stroke rate, and he is not wasting energy.  This probably also affects the bounce that was mentioned.  Hey, I know the others are very good and well conditioned.  He is just a lot better.

[JC50]

I wonder how long it's going to take for the Tahitians to realize there is prize and sponsorship money available in SUP.

Not long likely, D.Ching was at the height of his OC1 career and was at those 2008 World Sprints with TD, now Ching seems pretty dedicated to SUP.

However Va'a is very deep rooted in Tahiti. They have true professional teams (Shell Va'a, etc...) that don't exist elsewhere and while I like the SUP racing growth, I really don't want it to displace outrigger canoe popularity... I like the tradition and camaraderie with OC racing and hope SUP doesn't stunt its growth...