Board Trim

[Chilly]

How do you fine tune were to stand to get the best trim on the board? I know the tail should be just skimming on top of the water, but how about the nose? Is there a way to figure out where the sweet spot is or if the board is not right for you without the help of someone?

[excav8ter sup]

I have had a few guys who race quite a bit, watch me from the side while paddling. I am 6'4" and about 225 pounds, In flat conditions I stand about 6" behind the front edge of the deck pad, this leaves about 2"-3" of the nose above water. This seems to be the sweet spot for me, the water just peels off the bow, and looks so cool when paddling at a fast pace. If I paddle hard with a faster cadence, I notice that the nose will dip under slightly with every hard stroke.....then I just move back a little bit. On the only "downwind"  run i did with it, I stood back behind the handle by a couple inches. I am still learning how these types of boards react to where I am standing, as I had only been on planing hulls before this.

[dingfix]

Hi, I'm new to race boards also.  Finding if I stand forward of the handle to drop the bow, the board becomes tippy as I'm on the rounded/vee'd hull section?  Do you find the same?

[Chilly]

I've also found that just like Excav8ter that my board performs better with the nose above the water. You would think that is decreasing the waterline and lowering the tail so it should be slower. So I'm wondering if the board has too much rocker, volume for my size, or that is the way it's designed to be trimmed.

Dingfix, The widest part of my board is at the handle and start to taper from that point so it gets tippier. Not by much unless I'm way pass the handle.

[PonoBill]

really depends on the board, but first and foremost, get it flat in the water. If the tail is dipping under when you stroke you've got a big brake engaged.

My speedboard is very critical for trim, and gets very tippy when it's right. So it goes. I raced it today in the Willamette and it rocked as usual, but it's not an easy board to use. I had a couple of good paddlers try it and they came in somewhat puzzled that it wasn't just automatically fast, and that it was so hard to balance when they got where I told them they should be. I stand right on the edge of the deck pad, which is about two feet forward of the handle balance point. When I was at that spot I was hitting 6MPH into a strong headwind, one step back and I was at 4.7mph.

The easy way to experiment is to use Motion-X on an iPhone (and maybe on Android) with it's pace coaching to tell you immediate speed every minute. Walk around a little bit and find the sweet spot.

When I started the downwind leg I thought I should step back a little so I could catch the runners. I shuffled back about 6 inches, tried for every runner I saw, and paddled hard and my speed was 5.2. I shuffled back and paddled the same and I hit 6.2 with an average around 5.9.



I was about as fast upwind as downwind. No idea why, the wind was pretty strong and the current wasn't. I do know that the sweet spot is very critical on this board, and being just a little off it drops speed fast. That big dip followed by a peak is turn from upwind to downwind. That peak is 7.2 MPH. If I could have held that speed I'd have won overall, even with my crap start.

I averaged 5.2 MPH for a six mile race, not bad for an old fart and some serious wind. Fell once in a boat wake, like I said, when it's trimmed for max speed, it's tippy.

[kayadogg]

I know this thread is about trim in general but to add to Pono's input, I also have a Speedboard, 4 feet shorter than his, but very temperamental when it comes to where you stand. The first three races I did, I got passed and could not catch people that I feel I should have been able to at least hang with, especially late in a race when energy levels are low. I've spent so much time over the past month with GPS and foot placement. Not just a step back but a few inches makes a huge difference. To achieve the fastest speed and a quiet release off the tail, I also have to stand on the edge of the pad, well forward of where you would think. I've heard this before but it's hard to accept it until you see the numbers and start seeing results. Keep that tail out of the water!

[Chilly]

That was interesting Bill. I think I'm going to put my GPS on my board when racing for now on.

Kayadogg, you mean the tail on top of the water?

[Celeste]

Everything Bill says, but some generalities, every board I have tried, in flat water, I was faster sinking the nose then the tail, getting clean release at the tail is supper important.  Once that is done, you know your rear most position on flat water.  Then I move forward listening to the sound of the bow and looking at wake departure angle.  Noise is energy you put out that is not making you go faster, and a narrow departure angle takes less energy to create then a wide one.

If you have GPS, way better then any generalities.

[PonoBill]

Once you get the tail to release, it's time to play with fins. You'll probably find that you have too much fin if you have the tail releasing. It's counter-intuitive, but with the tail dragging you need more fin to make the board track. Once it's lightened up a much smaller fin will keep it straight. Great Dane got me thinking about this today when he was looking at my board and said something about the fin being so big. I came home and took the board down to Nichols with a much smaller fin to try. Got a .2 MPH improvement with a smaller gladiator fin, and the board actually tracks better. Yikes.

[dingfix]

Celeste, thats what i would expect, but struggling to get forward to weight the nose and remain stable. Further fwd i stand the more the board rolls. Is this a typical characteristic of race boards, any tips please?

[kayadogg]

Got a .2 MPH improvement with a smaller gladiator fin

Bill, Gladiator Pro?  Were you running the regular Gladiator or Hybrid before?

[Celeste]

Celeste, thats what i would expect, but struggling to get forward to weight the nose and remain stable. Further fwd i stand the more the board rolls. Is this a typical characteristic of race boards, any tips please?

My very limited experience on production race boards that there is a huge range in stability because designs are not yet converging.  One thing is for sure, you will be faster on a good touring board that fits you then you will be on a race board that does not.  Bill suggests that the fastest place for him on his Speedboard if not the most stable place, but I suspect that being 50-75 pounds lighter then him, I would trim it in a different place.  Weight and hull design are very interactive.

[PonoBill]

Got a .2 MPH improvement with a smaller gladiator fin

Bill, Gladiator Pro?  Were you running the regular Gladiator or Hybrid before?

I'm not that familiar with Larry's lineup, I have two fins from him that look similar but are different sizes. I've been using the larger one, switched to the smaller after GreatDane's comments at the end of last weekend's Portland race,  and got some improvement.

Further spurred by Tex_sup's comments about "thrust producing fins" (no, fins don't really produce thrust, they redirect, but it's not unreasonable for LA to talk about what they do in non-technical terms) I realized that with the long rail I have in the water on my 18' board, the extreme forward position I paddle it from to get best trim, and the narrowness of the nose and the resultant nearness of my paddle to the centerline, that I probably don't need much fin except for stability. So I tried this ventral fin in the rear fin box--and it's faster yet.



I'm not sure it's going to be something I use. the stability suffers a lot, but it's very fast. In a long race on smooth water the difference in speed might make up for a couple of falls.

[Chilly]

Everything Bill says, but some generalities, every board I have tried, in flat water, I was faster sinking the nose then the tail, getting clean release at the tail is supper important.  Once that is done, you know your rear most position on flat water.  Then I move forward listening to the sound of the bow and looking at wake departure angle.  Noise is energy you put out that is not making you go faster, and a narrow departure angle takes less energy to create then a wide one.

If you have GPS, way better then any generalities.

Thanks Celeste for your tip on adjusting trim by reducing the sound of the bow wave. I was able to paddle in some flat water yesterday and the softer the sound, the faster board.

[PonoBill]

Tried the little ventral fin in the rear slot again today in some crosswind and it sucked toads. Down by almost 1 MPH. Stability was substantially less too, when I stood in my normal trimmed position the board seemed to be actively trying to toss me off. Back to the drawing board.