How much non SUP cardio is counterproductive?

[Rockbottom]

Was going to run 7 this morning, but towards the end, I still felt great, so I kept going. 
I ended up doing almost 11, ( I havent run this distance in years)and that got me thinking.   You never see a distance runner with a muscular upper body, which is what is needed In sup to be reasonably competitive (at least for the men)   Few doubt the benefits that some running can offer, but again, you never see a muscular gym rat In a marathon.    There's got to be a line somewhere, where the benefits of running are counterproductive to upper body strength gained in  the gym and paddling.    Where is the happy medium where lower body card io and upper body strength/endurance compliment each other for overall fitness?

[1paddle2paddle]

Good question...wish I knew the answer.

[Strand Leper]

I don't know the answer... but I have stopped running.  I was a distance event guy... cycling and running and did 3.5 hour marathons in my 30's and early 40's (46 now)... I am over it as it is good cardio but does nothing for SUP muscles.

This is what I now do... as it stresses the same muscle groups (lowerbody) as SUP... HILLS... not running... walking fast paced and either wearing a weight vest or a backpack with pavers in it...

30-60 minutes, with dips or pushups every five minutes...

I notice it when I do it... in a good way.

Tim

[PNelson]

I guess, if you're trying to look like Chuck Patterson it might delay that. But if you're running under 2 hrs, I'm really wondering how much muscle atrophy you're truly going to experience.

My unprofessional opinion would be the cardio fitness gains will be greater than muscle lost.

[pdxmike]

I think the happy medium is a big range.  Marathoners are at the extreme end of the endurance-vs.-strength range.  But in between the 2 extremes,  I don't think anyone can point to a magic endurance/strength balance that's the best. 

Look at sports where there are events arranged along a clear strength-vs.-endurance continuum, like track. A 100-meter sprinter's at one end, and a 10,000 meter or marathon runner at the other.   I'm not even sure which of those I'd say is healthier or fitter.  And if you go in between the two extremes, and compare a 400 m runner vs. a 1500 m one, I don't think anyone can say. 

I used to be a marathon runner, but have come to really like the sports that combine strength training with cardio, like swimming and standup.  And anyone outside the extremes would benefit from running on the one hand and weight training on the other. 

Bruce Lee used to run quite a bit, and he was also about the strongest guy ever pound for pound. 

Standup seems to be about as balanced a sport as possible--you could do nothing but paddle, and you'd get a balanced workout.  Fast paddlers are all balanced athletes, but still some are skewed towards strength and others towards endurance. 

[johnrg]

The reason runners and cyclists are not big is that the weight isn't needed and not so much upper body strength. One still needs the cardio and also the leg conditioning. Cycling as other strengthening excercise does benefit paddling. I raced mtb's for 5 years prior to starting SUP and in the last year basically stopped cycling and completed over 30 races. My legs were shot. Knees just could not handle another 30 buoy turn race and needed 3 weeks to recover.

Since then I've been back in the gym 2 times a week doing squats, glutes, roman chair, bench and lat pull downs. The last two weeks got back to cycling, twice a week, with 25 mile hill route on the road. My performance improved dramatically the last couple of weeks, and 2 races, with some additional leg work.

So do as much running as you feel like,  but get a balance. Legs one day, paddle the next, etc... It's got me out of my SUP only stupor. Going forward I plan on keeping this routine... The legs and knees need to be as fit as the arms and shoulders.

John

[balance_fit]

 You never see a distance runner with a muscular upper body, which is what is needed In sup to be reasonably competitive (at least for the men)   Few doubt the benefits that some running can offer, but again, you never see a muscular gym rat In a marathon.There's got to be a line somewhere, where the benefits of running are counterproductive to upper body strength gained in  the gym and paddling.    Where is the happy medium where lower body card io and upper body strength/endurance compliment each other for overall fitness?

Rockbottom
There's a lot of ideas on this topic, many of which are excellent too, but i would recommend a more specific approach.

You never see a good marathoner with a muscular upper body or a highly developed gym 'rat' perform well in the marathon, because both athletes are specialists. The adaptations in their bodies, either extreme leanness on one or muscular development in the other, are the result of the specific exercises they do to excel at their sport.
These adaptations reside at the ends of a very wide spectrum.

There is a line that defines how much running is counterproductive to strength gains from the gym and from paddling (which are different):

To help identify this line, I recommend you use a measurable approach.

This can be done by keeping training logs.You need to quantify running volume, sup 'strength' via time trials and strength gains via specific strength exercise benchmarks.

Training logs of running and sup training include distance, time, frecuency, intensity and time trials, among other data. These logs help calculate running duration at a given intensity (volume) and sup time trials records.
Strength training logs include frecuency, exercises, sets, reps from which to calculate total poundage (volume). Record strength training benchmarks on some sup specific exercises as well.

From the information in the logs, plot volume (weekly time) in say, 12 weeks of increasing running volume vs sup training volume and time trials records.

Another line in the same graph should include strength training volume (pounds lifted) with corresponding strength benchmarks.

Comparing the lines in the graph will help to see several interesting things.

First, the line that defines (could be diffuse) when increasing running volume is counterproductive based on sup time trials.
Also, you can gauge strength training  progress (benchmarks) against progress in running or sup. 
From the same graphs you might be able to find out where a happy medium resides between them all.

For example, you will find out, if you run say, 30 miles a week and jump up to 50, if this additional mileage running, while keeping sup mileage steady, will reflect in improved sup times. Or if adding 50 lbs to bench pressing, keeping running and sup the same, will improve either.

This is not meant as a detailed statistical analysis of training. I leave such work to qualified professionals. Even so, the training logs and volume/time trial info will help you refine your training.

Endurance gains (running and sup)will persist over strength gains. And, endurance is sport specific. Endurance developed from running will not make you a better sup'er.

Go paddling, be well

[pdxmike]

Also, I know the question was geared towards achieving overall fitness versus becoming the most competitive paddler you can be.  But if you are training for paddling or any other specific sport, you also have to consider how much training time you have.  If it's limited, the answer to how much running is best is probably "very little".  If you're doing 3 or 4 workouts a week, and want to get good in one sport, I'd say you'll improve the most spending almost all your time doing that sport--paddling, running, swimming or whatever.

But if you're training a lot, then it starts making more sense to mix in other things.  For instance, high school or college swimmers add a few hours per week of weight training or running, because they'll benefit more from that than adding the same amount of swimming to the 20 or 30 hours they're already doing. 

But like johnrg was saying, mixing things up also keeps you from going stale or getting injured.  I'm a big fan of doing multiple kinds of training--mostly because I'd hate to miss out on the fun and challenge of doing several.  But a great side effect of that is that it reduces the chance of staleness or injury, so over the long term your performance in any one sport probably doesn't suffer versus that of people who stick to one, then burn out or get overuse injuries. 

[PonoBill]

I'm certainly no expert on any of these issues, but it seems completely logical to me that a successful marathon or distance runner would not carry an extra 40 pounds of upper body muscle--or whatever it weighs--any more than he'd want to carry fat. Both would be useless for running.

A good friend of mine is a serious cyclist. One of his training partners was a very attractive lady whom he dumped unceremoniously--just refused to train with her. I asked him why. He said she wasn't serious about cycling anymore--she had a boob job done.

Pointless weight.

[peterp]

pointless weight........hmmmm, I guess that depends on taste and priorities, your mate clearly wants to win races..........maybe you could help him out and see if there couldn't be some aerodynamic advantages that could reunite him with his ex-cycling mate.....

[pdxmike]

It's not just weight with distance runners, either.  Muscles use up oxygen.  So any muscle beyond what's needed for running is just a drain on your system. 

There is a formula for maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) that represents a person's ability to use oxygen, and it divides the oxygen consumption by body weight.  You can take any group of distance runners, and if you rank them by their VO2 max, it will correspond very closely to how they'll finish in a race, unless some have exceptionally efficient or inefficient technique.   So weight is a huge factor again. 

I guess this all also means that if someone's overweight, doing some extra running may be more important for being fit and performing well than for someone who isn't overweight, since running is a good way to burn calories and lose weight. 

[blueplanetsurf]

Strong legs are very important in stand up racing and even more so in surfing, especially in rough conditions. 
I have been doing quite a bit of downwind coaching this summer with experienced paddlers that are doing their first downwinders.  I found that for most doing the Hawaii Kai to Kaimana run for the first time (myself included), the legs start to give out by Black Point making it very difficult to stay on the board. 
So, if you are interested in open ocean and distance racing, keep running, I don't think it will hurt.  Strong legs and conditioning are key.
If you are concerned about not having enough upper body muscle mass, just look at Connor Baxter, the most successful racer this year.

[LaPerouseBay]

I like this article.  It has a few ideas relevant to the OP's question.

http://www.epickayaks.com/news/news/general-training-principles-for-surfski-racing

His ideas fit well with my personal observations over the years.

Cycling is a great supplement to my paddling.     

[blueplanetsurf]

Thats a great article, good training advice, thanks LPB

[Rockbottom]

A great read!  Putting this together    In my head accounting for al my available hours of training on the MTB, in the gym and running,  I think it would be tough to atrophy paddling muscles by running to much. One of the toughest sup surfing sessions I've had was surfing my already low volume board for my weight, the day after a hard 6 mile run,  now wearing a wetsuit.    2 hrs into it, I had to paddle In, good waves or not as I could no longer stand!  
    I'm still looking for a program that incorporates all these activities; everything I find is sport specific, with "some" X training.  
     Anybody read the article in the latest issue of Outside magazine that surmises that if one exercises properly, it develops the core adequately, saying that more harm than good can come from crunches?
       Sorry about originally  posting this I'n Tecnique, I meant to put it under Training.