Fins and rudders...placement on the board, tracking and a few questions...

[Shawn Michael]

I have an 18x28 bark with a 8 inch fin and while it does track pretty nice, I think getting a board to track really straight is a HUGE issue in terms of going fast over the long haul.  When paddling coaches in OutriggerCanoe test time lost in side changes it is a big deal and in SUP you are changing sides twice as often and the width of the board and length of the paddle makes the changes even slower....I have been dismayed that the rudder tiller setups on the bark for example do not track that well....every time you touch the rudder you are sideloading it and this is no good for speed so you want something that tracks super straight till you tap it.  In outrigger for example not only is the 22ftx14 hull going to track straighter, the big thing is that when you paddle you are applying force so close to the keel line that you are moving straight forward instead of zig zaging and side loading the fin as you are on a SUP....which is why I LOVE a narrow board....longer and more powerful stroke with more twist, easier angles for the shoulders and your thrust is close to the keel line so you are putting your power into going forward.....problems is I am not ernie johnson and I cant stand on a 24 inch wide board.  I like the penetrator idea, but another mechanical piece to malfunction...

Great Dane wrote: "I just put on a 8 inch fin on my Bark and it rode the 2 foot rollers very nice. I'm going to experiment with surf ski rudders in conjunction with the Barks steering system next."

I love the simplicity of barks system but sounds like maybe we could do better.  As I am not familiar with a lot of SUP rudders and figure SIC and co have R&D this what kind of fins/rudders do they use on the big F series boards?

Is it true that moving moving the fin towards the bow tends to make the board track more straight?

Just rambling, thanks for listening
Shawn

[greatdane]

Hey Shawn, I'm not going to even pretend to have any answers for you.  I am going to be trying some different rudder set-ups in the near future.  The Bark rudder pin (shaft) is the same diameter as the Huki rudders.  There are so many surf ski guys up here and a few have offered to sell me some used rudders that I can quickly modify for the Bark.

When looking at there skis, they run very different rudders for very different conditions... probably the same with OC?
Their surf rudders look very different from their racing/cruising rudders.  In flat conditions they use tiny little 4" rudders that have almost no drag.  But I don't know if any of this transfers over to a 18' board.  My hope is to use something like a Huki 7" weedless rudder for my conditions (see the Huki website).  My little brain thinks this might work well.  I'll let you know.

I agree with you that I think these rudder systems could use some improving... could someone tell us how the SIC system tracks?

[Shawn Michael]

I am going to go down and see if I can catch Joe and the shop as well.  In OC the flat water rudders for small and chop like we have here are 4 and the big surf ones (which I will never need) are 8.  I think that weedless HUKI would be ideal...that is a good thing because HUKI has a lot of options...let us know how it works out

Looking forward to some info if anyone has a thought

[Rems]

If you have a good paddling technique, you can go straight without side changing all the time...
A vertical stroke and a "J" design at the enter of the blade in the water can help a lot... It's just my point of view!

[Shawn Michael]

Thanks for the post.  I got a little coaching from Jim Terrel and he said the vertical stroke was important but did not recommend "bow draw" or "j" strokes for racing and long trips but rather to work with the boat setup...he uses a rudder.

I just put on my spitfire fin so I will see how it goes on Weds...I think it might track a little straighter....it does good now but I would like to get a little more...we will see...experimentation is half the fun even if I am re-inventing the wheel I am enjoying.

[noa]

Hi Shawn,
would you be wiling to share some more of what you learned with Jim ? personnaly i would have a tendancy to trust what an Olympic paddler tels me.

[greatdane]

Just finished putting a Huki 7" rudder on my Bark.  It was not a perfect fit, but is very close.  I made an anti-weed catcher out of an old fin that sits in front of the rudder.  Of course, I have not tried it yet and can't till Thursday... I'll let you know how it goes.

Also mounted some stick-on tie-down anchors and a bungie to hold a PFD & water bottle.  Also mounted my short leash to one of the anchors Joe installs for a water bottle holder.

The pic quality is not the best...

[Shawn Michael]

Noa, I paid him for coaching and talk to him when I go to his shop.  He pretty much told me the same things that eventually came out on this free video

http://quickbladepaddles.com/catalog/videopopup.html

I think C1 olympic high kneel canoe is about as close as you can get to SUP as has been very well analyzed and studied so I think Jim is worth listening to.  He has had really great results in SUP racing despite having little time to train. 

He rides a double carbon Bark unlimited and prefers the flat deck (like the one you ordered) and think the light narrow board (26 inch) is the way to go if you have the balance and likes to use the rudder so he can change sides at regular intervals.

He feels the most important dry land training is intervals on a stationary bike which was the cardio of choice when he was in the olympics...."running is just as good but it takes a toll on your body and is harder to recover from"

Shorter, faster strokes when going into the wind longer stroke in mild conditions

He prefers stiff paddle shafts and his pre-preg carbon dont flex at all but put all the energy into moving forward

He said Chuck Patterson (who he trains with) was in unbelievable shape and would beat the hawaiians and win the battle of the paddle and he was right.

That is about it, study the clip I think it is all there.

[Shawn Michael]

GD the rudder looks sweet, what a good call, I think it is going to steer really strongly.  The kelp cutter looks good.  Right where you have the bottle is when I cross my paddle when the wind is blowing behind me so I would hit it.  I really want to put a bungy like that but maybe a little further forward for me.

I got the spitfire and I am going out tommorrow so I will report back.

[1tuberider]

Thanks for the link Shawn.  Good information.

[Shawn Michael]

I was surprised that the big spitfire fin did not feel much different that the one Joe put on there which was a swept back 9in fin...I think the spitfire felt a little slower and a little more stable...now the board pulls a little to right instead of a little to the left LOL...I will have to get the GPS and see if there is any difference....well the spitfire looks a hell of a lot cooler, that has to count for something.

[noa]

Hi Shawn,
thanks a lot for your answer. yes i've seen and studied that clip. if i actually apply everything Jim says is another story.

[Shawn Michael]

And if you have any good clips and suggestions I am always all ears.  I think different styles of paddling are suited for different bodytypes.  I think the ideal paddler is going to be a really really lean guy with thin legs, long arms and a great upperbody strength to bodyweight (like a guy who can do 15 pullups with weights around his waist) who has the cardio to maintain a high stroke rate.  Being a heavier person a shorter faster stroke rate is too tiring for me so I try to maximize my strength by using a really big blade that does not slip in the water and twist and reach as much as I can....it is like the longer slower Hawaiian vs high cadence Tahitian strokes in outrigger.  You have to be in amazing shape to keep up that high stroke rate some cool instructive videos from Danny Ching...I think there is some good food for thought here:



and this one reguarding why punching the top hand through might not be the best idea



Thanks to Mindy @ outriggercanoe.blogspot for the videos!