Kook or Surf stance downwinding with ASS?

[Off-Shore]

Now I know I have been criticised for my kook stance downwinding with good reason, but I was watching Jeremy Riggs' video with Livio Menelau, which I think is the all-time best downwinding video ever, and Livio rides that SIC Bullet kook stance, like no other.

I have paddled in Maui with JR, I think using the very board he is riding in this vid. Sadly there was no wind and so we just did drills in the surf and I fell so many times I cut myself up on the rear mounting points for the GoPro tripod. JR stressed the importance of surf stance, and practice practice practice. In this vid, JR always seems to be in surf stance and Livio mostly kook stance. So what's the story? Is the ultimate, on a board with ASS (Steering) like a SIC F16 or Bullet, really kook stance, up in the "wheelhouse" steering using the ASS, or is it surf stance or a blend of the two?

Take a look at this vid and you be the judge

[PonoBill]

Livio has reflexes like a Mongoose. Doesn't matter how he stands. He always looks relaxed and lazy, and moves so smoothly that he looks slow. Unless you can do that I wouldn't take many cues from him. Like watching Fernando Alonzo drive Monaco to figure out how to handle your grocery getter. If I followed Livio's line on a Maliko I'm pretty sure I'd be dead by now. Slips inside Pier One when there's tow-in sized waves there and runs up along the jetty, using the currents. Nutty as a fruitcake.

Jeremy's technique relies in part on his alien balance, but it's teachable. Livio's is DNA-based. I've watched a lot of videos of Livio and watched him blow past me many times. He controls the rails of his board very precisely, and his board only tips when he wants it to. Watch when he moves to the tail. The board looks like it has a gyro in it. You can also see that when he's aiming to accelerate he lifts one rail. Spooky fast. If he didn't have family obligations I think he'd be on the top of the charts. Same with Jeremy of course.

[headmount]

Are you calling a parallel stance a 'kook' stance?  IMO DWinding is a dance of different stances and positions.  Whether you're a graceful cross stepper or do the John Belushi hop like PBill and I do, you gotta move.  When I'm not planning, I'm in a parallel stance or maybe slightly spread.  Even a slight spread allows a quicker transition to a greater spread when the board takes off.  Higher planning speed is very easy to have a spread surf type stance.  Low speed is more challenging.  I'd like to have a spread stance when I SUS but still only can manage to do a slight spread. 

But I've also seen people overdo spread to the Greg Noll Waimea Bay stance which is like anchoring your feet in concrete.  More potential balance but no possible movement.

However you stand that keeps you topside is good.

[PonoBill]

Probably should have said Ayrton Senna instead of Fernando since both Livio and Ayrton are Brazilian.

Reminds me of a joke. In a presidential briefing the DCI tells Bush II that four Brazilian men were killed in a terrorist attack. George says "That's horrible, remind me again, how many is a Brazilian.

[DavidJohn]

 When I'm not planning, I'm in a parallel stance or maybe slightly spread.  Even a slight spread allows a quicker transition to a greater spread when the board takes off.  Higher planning speed is very easy to have a spread surf type stance.  Low speed is more challenging. 

Yes.. I agree.. Planning in parallel stance requires a lot of skill.. or a lot of luck..

I still consider myself very much a learner at DWing and no expert.. but I think it's easier to hold parallel stance on an unlimited board than on a 14' or 12'6'' board because you get less forward/back resistance as the nose touches down.. Unlimited boards have more momentum.. I have found that on my 14' board getting in a surf stance more often is really helping my downwinding.. True surf stance [not staggered stance] with both feet close to the centerline alowes you to move much quicker and easier than you can in parallel stance.. Moving doesn't rock the board from side to side..  and I've also found those who persist with parallel stance need to hop forward and back in an effort to move quickly.. That's not a good technique IMO..

Between the 1.55 mark and 2.25 in my vid there are a few moments that I would have fallen if in parallel stance.. I think these new low rockered boards require a surf stance even more..

[PonoBill]

I think the most important thing is to be moving. If you're locked in place in any way, you're not getting the most out of your board and the conditions.

[Off-Shore]

Alright. I guess I should have not used the word "kook" and used parallel instead, especially in connection with the greats of downwinding..

Livio is definitely on the glide in parallel stance, and I, as a skier, really enjoy this stance on the glide. It feels just like skiing and having the tiller to just go left and right in that stance is an awesome feeling. But I'm no Livio and the times I can do this are few and far between. With DJ's encouragement I've been getting way much more into proper surf stance and DJ is right, you have great control when your feet are on the centreline. Not coming from a surfing background though, this is alien to me.

HM makes a good point of having the feet in parallel or staggered parallel stance ready to do the dance to surf stance and back. I used to do the "jump" backwards thing with both feet at same time, but now after DJ has encouraged me on the surf stance thing I'm not doing it any more. There's a great vid by Australian "IronMike" from the back of his board showing how much he moves about on his Bullet and I will see if I can find it to post as it really shows how much you need to keep moving unlike Livio.

[PonoBill]

I think one reason Livio stands parallel is that he controls his rails so tightly. Sometimes half his board is dry.

[Chilly]

To me it looks like they are just having fun with the rudder control connecting bumps. I’m sure if they were racing they would be in the surf stance a lot more attacking those bumps. It’s a cool video. It really shows how well the A.S.S system works.

[Off-Shore]

There's a great vid by Australian "IronMike" from the back of his board showing how much he moves about on his Bullet and I will see if I can find it to post as it really shows how much you need to keep moving unlike Livio.

My apologies to "IronPhil" for getting him mixed up with IronMike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Mike..

Here is IronPhil on his SIC Bullet 17-6 on the Maliko run in July 2010. It's an older vid, but watch those feet.. As PB states above, you gotta keep moving... This is another of my favourites.. Not kook stance, but maybe a crook toe or two.



And this is a guy who, when in Maui, I've read does 3 Maliko's a day

[Off-Shore]

I think it's easier to hold parallel stance on an unlimited board than on a 14' or 12'6'' board because you get less forward/back resistance as the nose touches down.. Unlimited boards have more momentum.. I have found that on my 14' board getting in a surf stance more often is really helping my downwinding.. True surf stance [not staggered stance] with both feet close to the centerline alowes you to move much quicker and easier than you can in parallel stance.. Moving doesn't rock the board from side to side..  and I've also found those who persist with parallel stance need to hop forward and back in an effort to move quickly.. That's not a good technique IMO..

DJ. That is one awesome vid (to see again). I am of the exact same opinion. On my SIC Bullet 14V1 TWC, there is absolutely no way I can downwind in parallel stance. The only way is to be in staggered or true surf stance. But on the SIC F16v3, it's a different story, being 16' long and with that momentum, it is an awesome feeling to be in parallel stance gliding, especially as a skier. Riding my friend's SIC Bullet 17'4, is even more easy to ride up front "in the wheelhouse" parallel stance, but when you get in true surf stance on either the F16 or the Bullet 17'4 there does seem to be more control than parallel stance. I think, this is because, as you say, there is no side to side rocking of the board as you go up and down the centre of it.

[spookini]

DW'ing with ASS -- Kim Kardashian SUPs??

[Chilly]

Does anyone else connect there leash to the middle of their board like in the Iron Phil video. I would think it would cause the board to face sideways on the incoming waves when you fall in creating a lot of pressure on the leach.

DW'ing with ASS -- Kim Kardashian SUPs??

spookini, wait for it, I'm sure a zoner will post an answer very soon.

[Off-Shore]

Does anyone else connect there leash to the middle of their board like in the Iron Phil video. I would think it would cause the board to face sideways on the incoming waves when you fall in creating a lot of pressure on the leach.

Chilly, I used to leash in the middle of my Starboard Coast Runner 14', and I never had the problem that you mention. I guess it depends how long you stay in the water. However I switched to a tail leash with time as I fell on the board one too many times. I like the board to be able to run as far away as possible from me when I fall. The most painful injuries I've had paddling are falling on the board (mainly bruised ribs). Now the only thing to worry about with a coiled tail leash is the board springing back on your head... and SIC F16's have sharp tails..

[Blue crab]

I have been watching this discussion with great interest as I am a hair away from buying an F16 V3 with an ASS to match my big ASS. Even without the rudder, I am constantly debating whether I should be in surf stance more as I do my runs.  I typically start out ok and then move less and less as fatigue kicks in, and my focus dwindles.

Watching Livio & JR videos, I am struck that from a statistical point of view, neither paddler spends a majority of time in surf stance on the back of the board. Definitely <25%. When they do move back and forward, it is cat like, gorgeous, and this clearly gets them into long, fast glides. Yet, most of the time, they have the foot on or near the rudder.  For JR, this is a staggered stance. For Livio, parallel.  OS, I get why as a skier, the parallel comes more natural to you. I am in the same boat.

Enough rambling. Here is another awesome video of an athlete doing things I'll never be able to do:

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