Kook or Surf stance downwinding with ASS?

[SUPJorge]

All,

I too have been following this thread with great interest. DJ talks about the relation between board length and "forward/back resistance as the nose touches down." I agree and would add in the variables of fore/aft movement to control speed and turning a fixed fin and how these factors relate to ocean conditions.

Biscayne Bay is a shallow bowl, averaging 10 ft. across. No matter what the winds are -- we've DWed in winds ranging from 20mph to 40+mph (Hurricane Issac 2012) -- the bumps remain shallow and short period, requiring fore/aft control, sometimes having to weigh the nose just to get into a small bump and then having to weigh the tail to slow the board a bit, keep it from immediately pearling and then trying to bank a turn. In these conditions, fore/aft trim is important just to stay on the glide, like keeping a see-saw balanced just right in order to keep the board's "center of energy" bump's "center of energy." Because, unlike skis, my feet don't project 2 feet to the front and back, I need to keep the feet staggered or in surf stance.

On the other hand, I can imagine (and will confirm this Summer) that riding on one of those big ocean swells in Maliko must be like sliding down a large incline and that once the balance is set, there's not much need to control speed by fore/aft movement. The ski analogy works in this situation.

PS.

[SUPJorge]

PS. Can someone more knowledgeable than me substitute the correct words for "center of energy" in my post immediately above?

[Chilly]

PS. Can someone more knowledgeable than me substitute the correct words for "center of energy" in my post immediately above?

The Sweet Spot

[SUPJorge]

Nope. I'm thinking in terms of sailing's "center of effort," and stuff like that .... Many of these guys know what I'm alluding too. 

[yugi]

^ Hmmm. Maybe “hydrostatic lift” but then again one isn’t always planing. Understand what you are alluding to. Maybe should have paid more attention in my Naval Architecture classes but was instead focused on planning for real! I don't think Cw is the correct term for this. It is a static measure.

Understood what you are getting at but there is such a mix of stuff going on. One trick being that once on a plane this “center of balance” moves back quick. The other being preventing the pearl. 

Your ski analogy about having 2 feet projected in front and in back is really because bindings and tall supportive boots fix you to the ski. I ski freeheel (Telemark) where, effectively, our telemark position is the same as the surf stance. We can ride parallel often enough when just balanced perfectly and are able to revert to the more stable telemark position at mongoose-speed when needed. It’s a reflex which develops after enough TOS (time on snow, oh, and face whacks too). DW SUP and Telemark are wonderfully complimentary sports. Similar thrills, similar timing, similar balance, similar stance. I’ve always found absurd some kook suggestions to put bindings on a SUP DW board. WTF!

I guess Livio (and I’ve seen Conor do it plenty of times when others around are surf stance) is just in a happy balance point and neither pearling nor falling off a plane so standing parallel to be able to paddle better. Just cruising easy where the rest of us would be sweating bullets just to stay standing.

You know the difference between a beginner Telemarker and an expert? The expert gets up a lot quicker. That’s my philosophy.

[Off-Shore]

Your ski analogy about having 2 feet projected in front and in back is really because bindings and tall supportive boots fix you to the ski. I ski freeheel (Telemark) where, effectively, our telemark position is the same as the surf stance. We can ride parallel often enough when just balanced perfectly and are able to revert to the more stable telemark position at mongoose-speed when needed. It’s a reflex which develops after enough TOS (time on snow, oh, and face whacks too). DW SUP and Telemark are wonderfully complimentary sports. Similar thrills, similar timing, similar balance, similar stance. I’ve always found absurd some kook suggestions to put bindings on a SUP DW board. WTF!

You know the difference between a beginner Telemarker and an expert? The expert gets up a lot quicker. That’s my philosophy.

Yugi, Haha. That is funny.. and real interesting about the similarities between freeheeling and downwind. Makes perfect sense..

So I guess what you are saying is Telemarkers make better downwinders than Downhill (and indeed Alpine) skiers, and in order to become a better downwinder, I should take up freeheeling! As a life-long skier, it's one of the few discipline I have never tried, but have always wanted to.. Maybe too late to now though in my 6th decade (that's 50+)?

[yugi]

“Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

[Southbay]

I agree with Chili, that they are probably kinda cruising while filming.  One major difference between the Bullet, which Livio and JR are on in the vid and the F-16 (which I believe you have Offshore) is movement on the board.  I have a bullet, and very limited time on the F16, but Mark R agrees with me on this one.  The F16 is more like a shortboard.  You can plant your feet more and steer, where as the bullet is more like a longboard, where trim is critical.  The F-16 has way more nose rocker, but the main difference is the Bullet really accelerates when you are on the tail.  When the glides really open up, and you are way back on the tail, you can climb up and over the bump ahead of you.  It gets a over drive gear that is only found on the back couple feet.  That said, movement and finding the right trim is paramount on every board, but the Bullet really requires it to really get going.  I find my self getting physically and mentally tired and not moving and that when the average speeds really drop. 

Last thing, it may not look like it here, but Livio is always in trim.  Obviously the same goes for glidemaster JR.

[covesurfer]

Interesting observations.

I've got tons of time in on my light layup 26" wide, F16 and a little time on Bullets, both the V1 with some rocker and the flatter V2. As I try to get faster downwinding on my F16, I've found that trim is critical on this board as well. Subtle adjustments can yield great results. You have to be quick with your feet.

Yes, that little bit of difference in length gives it a much more maneuverable and surfy feel but trim is fundamental to getting it to go fast. Like you SB, when I get tired and can't move and balance as well, my speeds quickly plummet and then, I'm chasing you instead of paddling next to you!

I know the same thing is true on the Bullets but there is more board to work with. Interesting observation regarding the overdrive on the tail. I haven't spent enough time on a Bullet to really be able to compare it's response from the tail to the F16. I know when I've been on a Bullet and really gotten going, I've felt more like a passenger than a pilot! Also, in the observation category, Ralf rides a V1 Bullet and is very fast. He's one of the few guys that ride parallel quite a bit. Somehow, it seems to work for him.

[Southbay]

I'd say we should switch boards sometime, but its sorta like going to your favorite restaurant and ordering something new.  Could be great, but why risk it?!?  haha 

I was going to mention Ralf too.  He stays pretty fixed, but really works the rails.  That last run I kept him in my sights, but I was running up and down the board and he was just standing there kicking my ass! 

[Off-Shore]

The F-16 has way more nose rocker, but the main difference is the Bullet really accelerates when you are on the tail.  When the glides really open up, and you are way back on the tail, you can climb up and over the bump ahead of you.  It gets a over drive gear that is only found on the back couple feet.  That said, movement and finding the right trim is paramount on every board, but the Bullet really requires it to really get going. 

SB, I am with you on the difference between the F16 and the Bullet 17. When you get the Bullet going on the tail it just goes like a rocket.. This is one of the early vids I made with my friend's Bullet. Between 5.15 - 6.00 your can see this acceleration of the Bullet as I head back to the tail, I am ashamed to say, with me kook stance before DJ got me realising the error of my ways... an awesome feeling..

[LaPerouseBay]

Here are some vids I shot from the side.

These vids may be helpful for this thread.

I guarantee you that shooting the vids yourself, then editing them will add another level of understanding to your downwinding knowledge base. 

I can remember watching Jeremy's first video as he was editing it.  (That one when he's talking real time about where to steer as he approaches Hookipa).  We had done that run the day before.  I had just edited my own vid that previous evening.  When I watched his screen and his commentary, I knew exactly what that water was like.  I was in ski that day and he is FLYING in that video.  Those swells were really moving.

I highly recommend you guys video faster paddlers so you can put the two experiences together.  You will see things on the video that you can't see when you paddle.  AND you will FEEL things on the run that you can't see on the video.  It's a big, big plus.  Trust me, that's why I've done hundreds of videos and added the speedometer.

I can't do what these people do on a standup, but it's highly educational to watch them on the same bumps from a boat.  That's a whole story in itself.
 


 



   

[Blue crab]

Yesterday I had my first ride on a F16 V3 in decent winds (25 mph). What a fun board. My only hesitation was that it might only function well on huge days for us in the Pacific NW.  However, the wetted surface appears to be <10 feet when in a plane so it sort of functions like a 14' but with greater ease of paddling in to bumps. It did beautifully in  moderate conditions and caught / connected glides easily. It was my first time using a rudder too: like having a joystick on the board. Totally fun.

Cove, I am certain that what you say about trim is the truth and that there is a great deal of nuance. That said, the board is pretty forgiving. Just to get the feel for things, I tried to let it pearl a bit: no biggie. I tried parallel and stagger: both felt pretty reasonable.  The F16 also seemed really forgiving to my crappy cross stepping back on the board which left me well off of the spine of the board. Really stable for 26"

Regarding proper trimming, I have always lived by the simple rule that seems to apply to many Naish boards that having the nose just above the water is its fastest spot. To this end, getting back on the board can serve as a brake. Is it your impression that the F16 functions in a similar way, or is it possible to in fact accelerate by getting way back on the tail?

[peterp]

I have barely any experience on Unl downwind boards but have logged hundreds of downwind hours on 14's. For me the parallel stance is more economical and the staggered stance allows me to go faster. But staggered is not necessarily faster over time as speed is a function of technique and endurance - and the staggered stance will zap your energy faster.

Walking your board without upsetting the flow of the board is the key and I suck at it with my bunny-hops - I was told to go and do more longboarding.....might take it up one day.

[covesurfer]

Regarding proper trimming, I have always lived by the simple rule that seems to apply to many Naish boards that having the nose just above the water is its fastest spot. To this end, getting back on the board can serve as a brake. Is it your impression that the F16 functions in a similar way, or is it possible to in fact accelerate by getting way back on the tail?

My simplified definition of trimming is that it is weighting the board by foot placement so that it's attitude matches the slope of the wave you are riding.

Typically, you find yourself back on the tail when you are on a big, steep roller. You have to get back to the tail to keep the nose up (just above the water, as you mention above); you are flying as far as speed goes and you're gonna bury the nose if you don't get back tout de suite!

Remember, you are moving at the speed of the groundswell and on top of that (sorry, that's almost a pun), you are sliding down the face of the wave. So you really get moving and you have to go to the tail because, at the high speed, the trough and/or the back of the wave in front of you are suddenly approaching very quickly!

I'm not sure that it's going back to the tail that accels you, you are getting back on the tail BECAUSE you are accelerating already and rapidly. You are gonna pearl, at high speed, and you must move back to trim out.

This picture changes if you angle across the grain of the waves rather than trying to go straight. When angling, I find that more subtle trimming results in faster speed overall and likelihood of linking several waves together. You have less chance of pearling the nose when you are angling so you don't need the hasty 'emergency tail run' trimming style of riding.

If I'm somehow caught going 'straight off' down a big swell and I step to the tail quick to keep the nose up, as soon as I run down the face of the wave, the tail is going to start sinking and acting like a brake. I can only speak to this from F16 experience, I don't know how the Bullets do under similar circumstances. The next thing you notice when the tail sinks, besides rapid speed loss, is that you are now trying to recover and have to paddle 'uphill' because the nose is too high - the board is completely out of trim. Plus, you stall in the trough and the accelerating wave that is behind you will completely pass under you because.....you are stalled.

Here's the key, as far as my learning curve, to faster downwinders: Do not go straight. Do not ride down a face, run to the back, stall, and then miss the next couple of swells recovering your speed. Always be angling, right or left, and adjust your direction based on the wave. With a rudder board, you use your front (steering) foot to guide the board with the rudder, often banking on a face to switch directions and take advantage of the swell energy. I find that turning sooner rather than later helps me stay 'on-glide'.

On a larger, steeper wave you can angle more than on a smaller wave. As far as I'm concerned, this is where downwind technique gets into the advanced stage. The idea is that as you're angling, trimming for maximum speed, you are already looking for the next bump to link to. This may and typically does require a shift in direction, from right to left or vice versa, across the next face. You don't want to get all the way back on the tail because you'll stall unless you are very quick and recover trim when you are at the bottom of the wave face. Sometimes you are going to end up on a big steep face and the board will accel so quickly that you are no longer worrying about linking glides, you are trying to avoid going over the handlebars. Obviously, you are going to be jumping to the tail under those circumstances. And, when you're on the tail, you can still try and angle by steering with your feet instead of the rudder. F16's are great at that.

Hope this isn't overly analytical. I learned to downwind in the Gorge and because of the current and wave pattern, as well as lack of knowledge, I often went straight. It was a series of hard paddles, quick, fantastically exciting surfs, stalls and repeats. When I moved to Maui, everybody smoked me. Because going straight isn't fast. It took me a full year to start figuring some of this out. Then another year to start actually using it effectively on downwinders. Still working on it. Southbay knows this stuff, he figured it out in his onemacanu a lot faster than I did. He is now keeping up with Ralf who is one of the fastest guys. Plus, Ralf is exactly my age so I know I have no excuses. Technique is where it's at.