CT school shooting

[JeanG]

For those that are interested in what the founders meant when they wrote the 2nd amendment. Check out the link below.  

The context of their conversation was centered around the question of having a standing army, an on-call militia or no military what so ever.  

Obviously we've interpreted it to address an individual's rights own and carry weapons, but that wasn't what Thomas Jefferson and the gang were thinking about.

http://constitution.org/mil/militia_debate_1789.htm

From that link:

"Congress shall never disarm any Citizen unless such as are or have been in Actual Rebellion."

"This declaration of rights, I take it, is intended to secure the people against the mal-administration of the government; if we could suppose that in all cases the rights of the people would be attended to, the occasion for guards of this kind would be removed."

[Keiki O]

The context of their debate was not about self defense or fighting crime. It was about future rebellion and militias in general.  That doesn't validate or invalidate the current argument. It just demonstrates that their concerns were of a very different sort when they wrote the 2nd amendment.

[SoCalSupper]

ah the old interpretation of the constitution...

reminds me of the fallacy that is the supposed separation of church and state...

they say the devil is in the details- well a case could be made hes also mucking around in the "interpretation" of lots of things, constitution, amendments, bible, Koran,Septuagint etc...

I gotta chuckle at people that think the gun is the issue.

Humanity is the issue, all of us collectively right down to the individual, there simply is no way to legistlate hugs and positive thoughts, banning this and allowing that is just humanity trying to make sense of ourselves and our shortcomings.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, who fixes humans?

[Dangerous Dan]

Right on SoCal!

[Keiki O]

Socal, if humanity is the issue, then why is it a good idea to arm humanity with automatic weapons? 

If we can't count on people to do the right thing, why is it logical to think that more armed individuals makes us safer?

[Admin]

Too hard to define, too complex a problem, young men, mental issues, the devil...

There is always a thousand reasons not to do anything.  The result is always the status quo.

[Chan]

SoCalSupper,

Are you really set to argue that Jesus, the ultimate pacifist, is against gun control?  You may have a hard time making the case. 

Matthew 26:52 '"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.'

Swords were the chosen weapon of the era.

[tautologies]

How egocentric...

Arguing about rights to bear arms when 20 kids have been murdered. That absolutely floors me. Just maybe consider, even just for a moment that maybe there is a remote possibility that something could be changed a just little to make it just a little bit safer for everyone?

I tell you this much...your right to bear arms ends a long time before innocent kids rights to not get mowed down by a fucking machine gun.

[Kevin]

How egocentric...

How dare you argue about your rights to bear arms when 20 kids have been murdered. That absolutely floors me. Just maybe consider, even just for a moment that maybe there is a remote possibility that something could be changed a just little to make it just a little bit safer for everyone?

I tell you this much...your right to bear arms ends a long time before innocent kids rights to not get mowed down by a fucking machine gun.

Thank you

[TEX_SUP]

How egocentric...

Arguing about rights to bear arms when 20 kids have been murdered. That absolutely floors me. Just maybe consider, even just for a moment that maybe there is a remote possibility that something could be changed a just little to make it just a little bit safer for everyone?

I tell you this much...your right to bear arms ends a long time before innocent kids rights to not get mowed down by a fucking machine gun.

Thousands of people are killed by alcohol and cars, are you planning on banning those items too? 

The focus here should be on the CRIMINAL not the tool.  Norway has extremely strict gun laws and last year a deranged individual killed three times as many kids as the guy in CT.   Banning guns just keeps them from law abiding citizens, and those people aren't the problem.

Why isn't everyone upset that a person known by his family and teachers to have extreme mental issues wasn't stopped?  That guy was the problem.  He would have been the problem if he used an assault rifle, a shotgun (which probably would have resulted in more casualties), a truck driven across the playground at recess, etc.  It's not the inanimate object that's at fault, it's the psychopath who is.

[SoCalSupper]

Keiki-i never said it was a good idea, not a fan myself of people having auto weapons-just less of a fan with my government telling me i cant have one.

Chan- Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that i have come to bring peace on the earth, i did not come to bring peace, but a sword"
Jesus was no pacifist.

Taut- i feel your passion-sickening situation-these werent the first innocent children to be massacred and sadly they will probably not be the last-this guy was disturbed-the machine gun was just the weapon to carry out a plan hatched in a demented mind as Tex SUP pointed out. THis whole thing is just so sickening and the debate is mind numbingly endless.

Humans are the problem-not the tool.

[tautologies]

Thousands of people are killed by alcohol and cars, are you planning on banning those items too? 

The focus here should be on the CRIMINAL not the tool.  Norway has extremely strict gun laws and last year a deranged individual killed three times as many kids as the guy in CT.   Banning guns just keeps them from law abiding citizens, and those people aren't the problem.

Why isn't everyone upset that a person known by his family and teachers to have extreme mental issues wasn't stopped?  That guy was the problem.  He would have been the problem if he used an assault rifle, a shotgun (which probably would have resulted in more casualties), a truck driven across the playground at recess, etc.  It's not the inanimate object that's at fault, it's the psychopath who is.

oh give me a break with that bullshit argument. Cars are HIGHLY controlled, and they are actually necessary. Machine guns are not. Pistols are not. You can sit there and throw red herrings, squirrels and all the stickman arguments you want it does not change the fact that something has to change.

No one is talking about bans. It is doing something different. I do not know what, but clearly it is too easy to get hold of guns.

Everyone is outraged that some lunatic was not caught by the system. But you cannot possibly mean that because one part of a huge system is messed up, that you will not will not discuss anything. If that is the case you might as well take a seat on the tea party express bought and paid for by the Koch brothers...it is useless and absolutely counter productive to move a society forward. Stop taking your talking points from the NRA and think about it. Do you REALLY need to have a machine gun?

Norway does not really have strict gun laws. I know. I am from Norway. Again throwing out these red herrings does not help anything. \If I had a gun, I would be all for having stricter laws because I know I could be a responsible gun owner. The really sad thing is that just by owning a gun you are about 5 times more likely to be shot by a gun..and then most probably your own, but please the car analogy is silly. They are highly regulated.

[tautologies]

Taut- i feel your passion-sickening situation-these werent the first innocent children to be massacred and sadly they will probably not be the last-this guy was disturbed-the machine gun was just the weapon to carry out a plan hatched in a demented mind as Tex SUP pointed out. THis whole thing is just so sickening and the debate is mind numbingly endless.

Humans are the problem-not the tool.

the thing is though that crazy people are usually not able to get hold of guns. I am not sure about this situation, but it sickens me to see the NRA arguments about cars and do not take my liberties away and all that bullshit because it is not a human right to own guns. The 2nd amendment is about a country having a military, the meaning was changed in 2008 or so.

Humans are ALSO the problem, but surely the chances of getting shot is a lot lower if there is no gun around.

[colas]

And even if it is 23/day, or whatever, that doesn't mean that all people's chances of being killed by a bullet are equal.

And this, seen from over the Atlantic is just perceived as "a rich white child life is much more important than a poor black child life".
And I don't even speak of the lives of middle east, african, asian ones... (ironically, the day before the CT shooting, a man attacked 20+ kids in a chinese school. No one was killed because the guy had only a knife)

In France, we also have our alcoholic loonies who bear arms: the hunters. We only have around one death per month due to hunting, but the details of the deaths show why you should not give firearms to the general public. Besides the classical killing their own sons, the last one was a guy killed because he was beating his dogs with his gun, holding the gun by the barrels, and the shot went off. I am always nervous when I hear gunfire nearby when SUPing. Just because royalty was forbidding 18th century people to hunt do not mean that it should remain a right in 21st, it should have been banned already. Alas, a lot of our congressmen are hunters too (some even hunt by gunning down everything from the roof of their car - but at least he his arrested and condemned http://www.liberation.fr/france/0101209503-le-chasseur-dassault-au-tribunal-le-pdg-est-juge-pour-un-safari-illegal-sur-sa-propriete )

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

SoCalSupper, that quote of Jesus that you use (Matthew 10:34) is out of context. He's referring there to the worship of himself and God and how that should take precedence over all other relationships. He wants to break people's earthly bonds and make their primary bond the bond with God. It isn't a call to violence or a validation of it. That only seems that way if you look at the quote in isolation.