FLAT water distance training? How far is far?

[PonoBill]

Of course! A lot of my long trips are on the Willamette River, which has a current that's tidally influenced. And the wind is fickle on any river--it can turn and blow like stink in the other direction any time. Generally you move forward, put your head down and grind it out.

As Dave K would say "good training" or as I would say "that sucks".

[stoneaxe]

I like that answer adios....paddleanything....My distance board is a 14' vec but i do most of my workouts on a 10-6 C4...and I'll be doing many of them this year on my 9er. Only problem with paddling short for training is working on technique. Very different paddling my 9 compared to the 14. Technique becomes very important when you start going long distances. I've been thinking about attempting a solo challenge late fall this year. Pushing my personal limits. I'll have to see how the training goes for this years CCBC before I know what that limit is...planning on a couple of 50 mile training runs to see how that feels.

[PaddleAnything]

Nice feedback...the handle has more to do with a willingness to  paddle any craft due to a love of paddling.  I'm a paddler not a surfer.  My background is in whitewater paddling, going with the flow, gracefully navigating a kayak, canoe, raft and now sup.  I'm paddling sup more now for fitness on flatwater and find the challenge going against the flow/wind/chop.  Very different mental game than whitewater.  My sup paddling tends to be solo on a large local lake where the conditions vary.  I'm mentally focusing on developing solid tech. on each side and a good pace but don't have others for feedback on either tech. or stroke rate.  Therefore I have been  searching this forum for comparisons.

My question regarding wind comes from a few months ago.  I headed out to cross the lake solo with a 2 mile/hr tailwind.  Once I reached my island I turned to head back when a steady 10+mile/hr headwind developed.  This was the first time I paddled into that strong/steady of a wind with whitecaps on the sup.  After paddling for 30 minutes and making zero forward progression only lateral movement I was burned out and went with plan B.  Something about getting physically and mentally beat down on  a large deep lake while being forced toward the dam intake just didn't sound like fun and the Corp of Eng would not appreciate my inspection of the intake.  Therefore, I attempted to lay on the board and swim into the wind.  Not very successful on a 31" board and poor swimming tech.  I attempted to paddle into the wind while sitting on my knees.  This provided better forward movement but I was still tracking laterally and much slower than standing.  Plan B involved turning to go downwind toward the opposite bank and a nice jog back to my car.  My thinking was that jogging 4-5 miles would be faster and easier than the upwind paddle which I didn't think would be doable with my board and experience.  

Pono's suggestion to just grind it out is the answer I was thinking; however, what wind conditions does that become not possible on a sup?  Is paddling from your knees the next best solution?  

Also, I'm interested in developing the skills and condition to go long.  On my 12'1" x 31" board, my best time in flatwater is under 4 miles/hour.  How can I improve my speed?  I can get 8 strokes per side with 32 strokes per minute currently.  However, I feel that switching sides at 8 strokes costs me time.  Yesterday I had a 2 mile/hr head wind and could get 200 strokes on one side but the wind limited speed.  Any other suggestions for monitoring tech. than timing and stroke rate.

I would not have all these silly kook questions if there were others around to paddle when I can paddle but I'm the only kook in these parts.  Any suggestions are appreciated.

[raf]

My 2 cents (and limited experience) on headwind:

drop to knees anytime you are paddling into whitecaps.  20mph seems to be a threshold where each forward stroke is negated by the wind pushing you back an equal amount as you pull your paddle out for next stroke.

I had a similar lake experience with my wife last summer in Acadia.  No wind going down, maybe 2 miles.  On the way back, a good stiff breeze (maybe 10-15) and she couldn't make any forward progress and was tiring fast.  Luckily there was a shoreside path and she ended walking back.  I removed her fin with pocket knife, turned her board around and strapped her leash to my calf.  Was an annoying paddle back, but I made it to the parking lot about a minute before her.  Without that leash we would have been toast. 

[dstgean]

Yep.  Remembering you can kneel and paddle prone is key to getting upwind in bigger wind.  In addition, there are some breakdown paddles--even a velcro on blade to use a kayak style double paddle.

Dan

[adios pantalones]

PA, it sounds like you've paddled enough other craft to know how to refine your stroke. You will get to the point that you can paddle on one side to exhaustion. I've always thought switching sides just to steer is ungainly. I mentioned in another post that you can weight one rail to carve the board a little towards your paddle side and maintain a straight track. I've since found that my "surf" style boards with round nose and lots of rocker will carve as you expect, it turns to the side you lean it. However, my race boards with a flat sheer, finer entry and more boat like bow on it, will carve away from the lean!  Go out on a pure glass morning and see how your board will steer while you glide.

As to the wind, kneel or lay down, I have also set with my legs out ahead of my body and paddled like a canoe. It isn't always wind that skunks you. I got into a badly confused patch of water where a rip combined with large swell refracting off a cliff face into the exsisting swell... sheeeesh! I got maytagged and had to sit down to paddle out of it!
One last thought, feathering your paddle helps dramatically up wind.

[XLR8]

Paddleanything, I know what it's like being the only look in town.  I can't believe I live on one of the largest freshwater lakes in the world and have three rivers within 30 miles of me and rarely see any paddler locally.  There's a group around but you have to be willing to travel to get a paddle in with a few guys.  Wind...like, you described I've often felt like the wind was so strong I was stationary between strokes and was just pick axe'in forward.  You just gotta HTFU and keep at it.  Sometimes that means running back to the truck, whatever, you're doing it.  Keep paddling...anything.

[adios pantalones]

Paddleanything, I know what it's like being the only look in town.  I can't believe I live on one of the largest freshwater lakes in the world and have three rivers within 30 miles of me and rarely see any paddler locally.  There's a group around but you have to be willing to travel to get a paddle in with a few guys.  Wind...like, you described I've often felt like the wind was so strong I was stationary between strokes and was just pick axe'in forward.  You just gotta HTFU and keep at it.  Sometimes that means running back to the truck, whatever, you're doing it.  Keep paddling...anything.

Must be lonely up there! But beautiful surroundings. You could be alone for awhile! I grew up near Jackson and my experience is that the fine folks in Mi. are NOT typically "early adopters" of new things or thoughts! 

[Canuck Kook]

My 2cents, I do a lot of paddling in the local river and the current changes with water depth. When going against the current, the current runs faster in shallow sections. The best way I have found to battle this current is to shorten your stroke and increase the tempo. The reason for this is as soon as you pull the paddle out the current is pushing you back. If you have the paddle in the water more often the less chance the current has to push you back.
It is the same thing in a heavy head wind.

[PonoBill]

In a fast flowing river the current is slower near the bank. You learn that fast on the Columbia. You can be swooping and whooping in big swells and a 30 knot wind (blowing against the current) and a guy paddling over near the bank zooms right past you. Makes for boring races unless you just say screw it, I'm gonna ride some swells.

[stoneaxe]

I've been very happy more than a few times that I did alot of against the wind training. One of my favorite workouts is to battle my way outside against a 15 or 20 MPH wind with 1 or 2 ft chop. I find that timing your strokes to the chop as if it were moguls helps. Unload the board as muc h as possible as you stroke over each peak. Bending your knees each time helps cut down your profile a little too.  Came in very handy on Christmas Eve 2009... was about 2 miles out on a training run when a sudden offshore SW wind came up. Took me about 2 hours to paddle in....well past dark. Did a little of it on my knees for some short breaks. Didn't have much choice but to fight it. Next stop was Cape Cod or if it pushed me far enough to the NE maybe Spain....Wife wasn't too happy.

[Shano]

I Know about the big channel crossings, Molokai, Catalina, etc. With many of those, swell or catching "bumps" becomes part of the ride.
  What about dead flat water? Say, calm Tahoe, The Delta, Mid western big lakes or rivers.

 Who is going long?  How long?  Sustained long speeds?

We have the Bay2Bay 20 miler here in San Diego. It's a mix of ocean and bay, but even the open water doesn't promise sustained rides.

I'm training for the Bay2Bay but am really winging it.

Any thoughts?

 Jacko, Kelly and Tims effort on the weekend was amazing, 24 hours continuous and Jacko covered 144kms, that was on a course were you had to do a kick turn around a bouy every750m or so. Amazing effort.

[adios pantalones]

In a fast flowing river the current is slower near the bank.

Depending on the curves of the river you can even get reverse currents or eddys that propel you upstream, the same holds true in coastal channels and bay mouths, you can often capitalize on adverse tidal current by hugging the bank or jetty.

I used that trick Sunday AM to get out of Mission Bay against a flood tide. We paddled back around the point in the fog to Shelter Isl. A nice 15 miler in 4 hours!  3.5 mph on average

[Jacko]

I Know about the big channel crossings, Molokai, Catalina, etc. With many of those, swell or catching "bumps" becomes part of the ride.
  What about dead flat water? Say, calm Tahoe, The Delta, Mid western big lakes or rivers.

 Who is going long?  How long?  Sustained long speeds?

We have the Bay2Bay 20 miler here in San Diego. It's a mix of ocean and bay, but even the open water doesn't promise sustained rides.

I'm training for the Bay2Bay but am really winging it.

Any thoughts?

 Jacko, Kelly and Tims effort on the weekend was amazing, 24 hours continuous and Jacko covered 144kms, that was on a course were you had to do a kick turn around a bouy every750m or so. Amazing effort.

HAHA,paddling for 24hr is not something you want to do every week!!!!
Jacko

[mik911]

Depending on the curves of the river you can even get reverse currents or eddys that propel you upstream, the same holds true in coastal channels and bay mouths, you can often capitalize on adverse tidal current by hugging the bank or jetty.

So what is happening at the mouth of a harbor?  Faster current going in/out in the middle of the mouth, and less/slower current along the rock jetty?
So to get in/out of the harbor, you are hugging the rock jetty? 

thanks