Displacement vs. Planing

[StandUpPaddleSurf.net]

For SUP that is - standup paddling. Is this guy talking about a SUP being a planing hull full of it or he's got a point? Talking about paddling under your own power (not surfing or strong downwind, which is also a sort of surfing, where the SUP is indeed in planing mode at least some of the time).

Do you think you gain more (in terms of more speed or less effort) from the "lift" compared to what you loose from the inefficiency created by the same lift in terms of "pull" forward lost?

Reading John Winters' articles helps understand some of what makes a hull "plane" (or not). Just curious if by effectively pushing on the paddle down a bit and thus lightening the overall weithg and thus minimizing the displacement needed (for a short moment at least) there is a benefit compared to paddling the "old" way. Canoe paddles are shaped very similarly (they have some angle) but no one I think talks about "lift" in the way this guy is (e.g. in terms of minimizing the displaced water).

 

Keep in mind - I'm totally new to SUP but not that new to kayaking

I think this video is being analyzed out of context.  When I shot it over a year ago, it was so Todd could explain the different models of the C4 paddles.  I had to watch the videos again because I remember shooting them but couldn't remember everything in them. 

These videos may explain his paddle stroke better: 
Todd Bradley Teaches Proper Paddle Technique #1 
Todd Bradley Teaches Proper Paddle Technique #2 - Video

Todd's been paddling his whole life and has over 50 Molokai crossings.  Yes, he knows what he's talking about and as a paddler he's still one of the fastest racers out there.

He's referring to planing hull boards, surf and downwind.   

I'm not sure what you're referring to by a 'splashing paddle'.   Todd mostly refers to a smooth and quiet stroke when he's teaching.  I think you can see this in the video above.

[Shawn Michael]

It works for him but I think he is in the minority and it goes against the teaching of the vast majority of coaches.  "you will be sore in the tricep and not the lats" and that sort of thing is just the opposite of what you will hear from Danny Ching's seminars....Since Rambo just made this great slow motion of (IMO) the greatest OC-1 and SUP around I dont seen any of Todd's stuff in Kai Bartletts paddling (or really any of the other guys)

I am not a great paddler or athlete.  I want to do the best with what I have.  Being an old guy I have the benefit of $$$.  I have had the best coaching available and never heard this stuff about using tricep extension and not pulling with the lower arm.  Obviously works for Todd but how many others?  Not Danny Ching or Kai....

slo motion at 3:41

[WB_BB]

It works for him but I think he is in the minority and it goes against the teaching of the vast majority of coaches.  "you will be sore in the tricep and not the lats" and that sort of thing is just the opposite of what you will hear from Danny Ching's seminars....Since Rambo just made this great slow motion of (IMO) the greatest OC-1 and SUP around I dont seen any of Todd's stuff in Kai Bartletts paddling (or really any of the other guys)

I am not a great paddler or athlete.  I want to do the best with what I have.  Being an old guy I have the benefit of $$$.  I have had the best coaching available and never heard this stuff about using tricep extension and not pulling with the lower arm.  Obviously works for Todd but how many others?  Not Danny Ching or Kai....

I would think that using a combination of the push from up top and pull with the lower hand would be most efficient. It would be crazy to me not to pull with the lower arm to get your back into it as that is such a large muscle. Just my thoughts

[JC50]

SUP and OC paddling techniques have many similarities, but also some real differences that standard OC coaching doesn't cover. I thought TB's explanation regarding those differences was on (and TB is the man when it comes to OC. The guy's an incredibly accomplished OC6 steersman and to be good at seat 6 means you need to be seriously analytical about everything, so I give him big time credibility around paddle techniques) . An SU paddle is much longer and your bottom hand is not at the water level, therefore using a generally straight arm approach with high rotation/lat involvement from OC is doable, but what your losing in efficiency through flexion of paddle or increased distance of bottom hand to water-level is not being replaced by arm involvement, therefore incorporating some lever-action with top hand (ie: triceps) at the top of the stroke contributes to power & efficiency. Before I saw TB's vids last Spring I was all about using the standard OC stroke on a SUP, really trying to twist and use as much lat involvement as possible, keep arms relatively straight and not very involved other than being cables connecting my torso to the paddle. But I was curious why I couldn't get as hard core a lat workout like I could paddling OC (paddling a SUP and OC back to back reveals a lot of differences). After seeing his technique I went out and tried it and found it to really work, especially when it's rough out requiring me to keep a quiet upper body (tough to do if your trying to maximize torso rotation). So through the Summer my SUP stroke has changed a bit to be more using the long paddle as a lever, rather than as just a pole stuck in concrete that I'm pulling myself to (OC paddling technique analogy). I still try and reach forward as far as possible with lower hand to keep stroke way up forward and stretch lats to prepare for a pull, but how I put the stroke together after the catch has changed significantly; I'm not focused as much on pulling lower arm back with body rotation as I am using lower arm as an anchor while top hand pushes a bit (my goal is really to do both at same time to maximize efficiency). There's still plenty of lat involvement. What it also has done is add more variety to the stroke. DK had a vid out that talked about using two different strokes for SUP to mix things up and keep muscles fresh. I think the result is a stroke with combination torso rotation and levering action, maximizing efficiency and power from both angles, leaning to one extreme or the other depending on fatigue and conditions.

Regarding the splashing, I believe that's just because they're doing short sprints to pick up speed and even the best paddlers are going to do some splashing when taking short, quick, hard pulls at the top.  My ideal stroke is shaped like a 'D' (looking from right side of craft): slice in from the side at the top to reduce ventilation and make clean entry, pull straight back for the power phase, and slice out at the bottom for clean exit. I know some like to poke or spear in at top, but I've never been able to do that without plunging the paddle and bringing a lot of air with it, so I slice in and out to keep things clean. At a cadence of 60-70 strokes/min I can keep things quiet following the 'D', but trying to do that at higher cadences doesn't work out too well, at which time I'm basically spearing the water at the top and making a short pull during a sprint to catch a wave (either shoaling or swell), and of course there's plenty of splashing that goes along with it...What I'm giving up in efficiency by splashing is [over]compensated by many quick successive short power-pulls that get my speed up fast. This is what I think we see when these pro's look to be splashing in the vids. I believe if we were watching touring strokes in flat water there'd be no splash. I sure as hell ain't no pro; not even close, my stroke needs alotta work and many more miles, but the splashing that is being criticized here didn't seem remarkable to me when looking at the vids.

Above seems to work for me now, but who knows where my stroke will be 1000 miles from now. It might go back to more OC or change into something completely different. I'm still in imprinting stage. Who knows...I may look back at this post and say what the hell was I thinking??? But right now the techniques proposed by TB seem to help a bit for me in practice.

Anyway, that's my hack at the topic (or what it's morphed into   ), no guarantee's that I know much what I'm talkin' about...paddlin's always easier to break down and discuss when sitting on my ass in front of PC, LOL!

Cheers.

[Kocho]

Thank you for the 3 new vids (2 from Todd and 1 shot by Rambo of the competition) and the explanation on the "D" and the "pushing hand". These are concepts I'm familiar with and will pay attention to them in my own paddling to see what works best for me.

The two videos on the forward stroke just posted above were very helpful to me – the ones I linked to initially were just talk (no paddling) and my point with them was the “planning” part when not surfing. These later vids on the stroke where Todd demonstrates it, make it clear to me and I'm 100% with what he's saying there.

In fact, I think what he is talking about is fully consistent with what I have learned from a forward stroke class I took with a top kayak coach. The flex-extension-timing of the upper hand is key to a good beginning of the stroke but should not be misinterpreted – its primary purpose is to get a good planting and the “power” phase is still when both arms are near straight and there a good rotation is necessary (or else we are doing arm paddling). Looking at the different paddlers, I think there is room for variation on how much bent the upper hand can be and still be effective - depends on how much rotation one feels comfortable with - seems some are getting forward reach with a straighter upper arm by more sideways rotation while others rely more on the arm itself with less rotation during the planting phase. Lots of ways to do it "right"  

Thanks for these additional hints and explanations - really helpful to me as someone just getting started with SUP and I'm glad I can see logic behind them when superimposed to my (quite limited) kayaking knowledge.

[Distressed Mullet]

I guess there is a "happy medium" somewhere. But for long-distance paddling (except strong down-wave) I see no benefit to "lift" ...

You will. 

As time goes by you will see how important stroke technique is.  Watch some videos of the kalamas paddling.  Notice how far forward they reach and how clean their release is.  They barely pull past their feet because they want lift in their stroke. 

The 'happy medium' you speak of is shifted more toward the 'lift' end of the spectrum than the 'propulsion' end.
 
Do you know where any of those videos are? I'd love to watch them...

Thank you!

[greatdane]

I have found that Todd's pushing forward/tricep extension is useful when I have been paddling for 2+ hours and I need to use some different muscle groups, because my biceps etc. are starting to fail/cramp up.  Came in very handy during a 13 mile race when I started cramping up at mile 11.  Anything shorter, I haven't tried it too much.  I certainly don't feel like I can maintain my high-reps of 50-60 strokes/minute with that technique.

[diesel]

Good writeup JC50.  You and I come from similar backgrounds with the OC1 stroke where you twist for power.  I have only just recently been trying to implement Todd Bradleys lever technique where you punch forward instead of the twisting pulling type of stroke.  It seems to be pretty effective.  It is tricky to do it smoothly after all those years paddling OC1 but I can see the merits of the the lever idea.  You can definitely get some more power and it doesn't hurt you elbow joint where I was starting to get some pains.

Funny that when you watch Kai Bartlett and the others in the Rambos video, that nobody seems to do the puching technique.  It is probably pretty uncommon.  In fact, even when you watch Todd on his downwind run, it is hard to see the technique.  Maybe it is quite subtle to the eye. 

Anyways, it seems like there are a lot of techniques and that is what makes this sport interesting.  It is still totally evolving and changing every year.  So fun.

[Shawn Michael]

"Funny that when you watch Kai Bartlett and the others in the Rambos video, that nobody seems to do the punching technique.  It is probably pretty uncommon."

That is what I am saying in a nice way, I just have never seen any of these great paddlers "punching" with their triceps though I have people tell me this all the time...I went to buy some paddle grip tape and the guy (who is a C4 distributetor) said "if you know the correct way to paddle you wouldn't need to grip, the lower hand is just a pivot point"

Having won just about everything in OC-1, set SUP record at molokai, etc, etc I would expect Kai Bartlett would be in on the secret.  Olympian Jimmy Terrel owner of quickblade did not get the "punching with the triceps" either.  Again, if I saw people doing it, I would not wonder why I hear so often that the triceps should be driving the paddle. 

How about these guys??

[Shawn Michael]

I live right next to Danny Ching's Club and have been lucky to get coaching and watch him paddle often.  One of the best OC guys ever, and he has won every SUP event he has entered as far as I know....he stresses not punching with the top hand...

http://a14.video2.blip.tv/4720002340607/Mindy-KamanuClinicPart4312.mov?bri=2.7&brs=844

[J.Riggs]

I started out with the "punching" technique when I first started paddling but my elbow joints were getting sore and I felt like my arms were doing most of the work. The past couple of years I've asked some of Maui's top OC1 guys about technique and I've started using the "twist and pull" method. My elbow pain is gone and I feel like this stroke is more efficient. I guess everyone's different. I'd like to see the difference in Danny's OC1 paddling and SUPing.

[Shawn Michael]

IMO if you look at Kai and Danny their SUP stroke looks very similar and the fact that Danny seemed to pretty easily win against a tough field including Chuck P after a very short time with SUP I think the skills translate very well, ditto Kai, Arron Nap, David K (who is a very accomplished OC-1)

[Dwight (DW)]

I live right next to Danny Ching's Club and have been lucky to get coaching and watch him paddle often.  One of the best OC guys ever, and he has won every SUP event he has entered as far as I know....he stresses not punching with the top hand...

http://a14.video2.blip.tv/4720002340607/Mindy-KamanuClinicPart4312.mov?bri=2.7&brs=844

Here is a video I shot of Todd at a paddle clinic. Even though he talked about pushing with the top hand, when you watch him actually paddle, it doesn't look all that different from the video of Danny. A pro might see more differences than this rookie does. I wonder if Todd really isn't all that different, but that he emphasizes the dos and don'ts very differently in class. He did talk about engaging his lats and he does twist. The biggest difference I see is not bending at the waist to the extent that someone like Dave Kalama does.

For me, trying to paddle like Kalama feels more powerful. Going more upright feels better once planing.

[Kocho]

The OC1 guy in the slo-mo vid above has his arms straight, but look at how his shoulders are rotated - he does not need to bend his pushing arm as his body rotation takes care of positioning the paddle forward enough so that when it is fully submerged it has proper power. he is using a huge and powerful paddle blade and he is sprinting. A canoeist on a long distance course will not paddle like that.

The SUP last (in this thread) "racing clinic" video I think is no different than the other two of the same instructor - to my eye he is using the bent/punch with the upper arm to achieve good planting of the paddle, but the main power actually seems to come from body rotation, which begins after the paddle is well planted in the water. Seems this is the only way one can use a bent in the push arm and not get tired too soon...

[JC50]

I believe that we're all trying to discuss & see examples of gross motor differences watching the pro's vids when in reality what we're discussing is really just very subtle differences in technique that's difficult/impossible to see as a spectator.

In practice, using the twisting torso and straight arm approach of OC1 stroke uses quite a bit of top-hand triceps. Using some lever-action at the top of stroke also uses quite a bit of torso rotation and lat involvement too. It's very much a combination-not exclusive. To video the same person using both techniques on the same run won't likely show much visual difference to the spectator; the real difference is how the paddler thinks about his stroke mechanics. I never thought TB was suggesting the extreme push-pull lever-action, he's just emphasizing its increased involvement over standard OC-stroke because of the large distance from lower hand to the water and longer shaft on SU paddle. The difference between paddle lengths and stance between OC and SUP has to mean a difference somewhere in stroke mechanics, but not dramatically. This is the take-home I got from it and it seems to help my SU stroke. Difficult to evaluate b/c I probably have less than 500 miles on a SUP so while I may be improving my technique, I'm also recruiting more and more muscles to the movement as body continues to adapt.

A good example is the time-honored analogy in OC, that "you should be pulling yourself to the paddle as if the blade is cemented in the water rather than pulling the paddle through the water to you". To the spectator, the two strokes look identical, to the paddler there's a completely different feel; it's the difference between emphasizing your core or your arms. In practice you use both, but just at different percentages depending on how you think about it.

A pro paddler is fast on anything. Much of it comes from solid technique, but a significantly large part comes from muscle recruitment. If you've been paddling competitively for thousands of miles, your body has adapted to recruit every muscle imaginable to the stroke. Some pro's have really nice looking solid form almost out of a textbook....but some also look completely opposite of contemporary "stroke theory"...and they are still super fast. So it's often been difficult for me to evaluate a particular pro's technique from watching. Watch Danny vs Karel Jr. in OC1....very different looking strokes...both at the top of their game, trading top-3 results between them in just about every race. Which one's better? The one that works for you.

Hmmph, guess I like to talk technique...