To Blane and all the shapers out there: Please post volume numbers!

[Blane Chambers]

I'm still up here in the mainland but got some time to post...   Before getting into it every board I design has a little volume count going.   I gave up on using it to make decisions on a shape.   Why?   Because I have made many, many boards with a variety of volumes and there is no consistent. accurate measure of what is really going on.       

Here's my take on volume.    It can be very, very, very misleading.    By comparing volume it really means nothing in how stable a board is, how it paddles, how it surfs.     By giving out volume, it allows people to add another confusing thing to the list of confusing things.       

This is where things get really confusing.   Lets say brand X's model shaped by Moogly Joogly is a 9-6 x 28-1/2" x 4" with 144 liters of volume.     The tail is 18" wide at the 12" mark.    Its got a square tail block that is 6" wide with a foiled tail to 5/8" at the tip.   The nose is 19 inches with tip rocker at 5-3/4"   Tail rocker at the tip is 3-3/4".    Rolled v to the mid point into a single concave.  Super hard edges to the leading edge of the side fins.   

Brand Y has a board shaped by Googly Boogly with 147 liters of volume but it is 9-4 x 28-7/8" x 4" with a bit less tail rocker, slightly more v.   The tail is 17-7-8" but pulls down to a 5-5/8" tail block with a wing right behind the side fins.    Nose rocker at the tip is 5-7/8" and tail tip comes in at 3-5/8"   Nose is right at 18-13/16".   Super hard edges to 1" in front of the leading edge of the side fins.   This one is a quad.

Here's the money question.   Which boards volume means it will work better for you?   Are you sure?    How are you sure? 

The truth is, volume is relevant only if Moogly Joogly and Googly Boogly shaped identical rockers, outline, rail contours, bottoms and foil with the only difference being thickness.   

I can honestly say that even dimensions barely tell a boards true story.      How many times have you heard or felt this?    Mooglys board is so stable compared to Googly's and its narrower, or thinner, or has less volume...   Many people will buy a board thinking the volume is right for them?    Really, how would they know?   "This board has 7 liters more volume than that one so its gotta be more floaty right?"    Well...   Nope...   

Not saying we won't ever give out  volume but I can already hear it.   "What does this Volume thing mean?"        A true answer would be, "It depends".     "Depends on what?"   SIGH.......

[Nate C]

I gotta agree with Blane, numbers are very misleading.  Lets say we have three boards, from three different shapers with the same dimensions, an unlikely scenario, but at the moment I can think of three very prominent shapers in the sup world who like to put there wide point in three differnt places.  One likes to put his width in the "hip" of the board, the other likes his width in the middle, and the last likes his width in the "shoulder."  Already we have three different boards, yet they all have the same dimensions.  I guarantee you that the stabilty of these boards are very different.

Lets look at some other variables.  Where is the thickest point of these boards located?  How is the thickness distributed?  How much rocker?  Rail contours?  Fin placement? Full nose or pulled in?  Double barrel?  Where?  Vee bottom?  How much and how far forward?  I could go on and on.  Every shaper has their own theories, as surfers each have their own styles.  What rips for one surfer might be a dog for another.  It all boils down to knowing what you like or don't like.  For the beginner its all about trial and error, try different boards until you find one that works for you. 

Numbers are just  guidelines,  if you know your shaper's tendencies numbers can tell you alot.  If you don't, numbers can be very misleading.  Remember shapers are as individual as you and me.

[Scotty Mac]

The problem is that production windsurfing boards give a volume that is actually guessed, not measured. There is not volume measurement at the cobra factory as far as I am aware. I have a 84 litre jp twin fin that I am sure is smaller than my 79 litre JP pro wave. The 84 is shorter so, it that why it feels sinkier? I think volume in SUP may help as a guide but could also miss lead because of different dimensions. Also its not worth it if the manufactures only guess and not actually measure.

[Admin]

Good points, all.  Volume is one number, and no, it does not tell the whole story.  But...it tells as much or more than length, it tells as much or more than widest point etc, etc.  

The value in volume is not a guage of overall performance but a starting point in determining if a board has the correct floatability for you.  Right now, you hear people saying I have a 10' that I am comfortable standing on, so I am thinking of dropping to 9'4 or so.  Worth a chuckle right?  The volume spread in our sport is HUGE right now for same length boards.  Some 9 footers are actually pretty huge boards while some 10's are actually pretty small.

The biggest value of knowing volume comes as brands start to advance the same basic shape into multiple sizes.  This is just happening now.  For example, we have recently heard that C4 is expanding their Sub Vector line.  Once you have the same or very similar shape being offered in multiple sizes, there is no more useful single number than volume.  

Later on down the line, after volume has become a commonly reported number, you will hear people talking about how well volume is being used, and where there are really efficient or inefficient designs.  ie incredibly well balanced for 100L, or it's 100 liters but it feels like all of the volume is in the nose etc.  

[Blane Chambers]

incredibly well balanced for 100L, or it's 100 liters but it feels like all of the volume is in the nose etc. 

Good point Rand.    If I ever do post volume it will be here in the zone to start.

Also its not worth it if the manufactures only guess and not actually measure.

Very true.    My program shows volume BUT, guys who hand shape their plugs for the factories will have to rely on someone to give it to them.     I wonder how many fudged volume numbers there will be?

[southwesterly]

I think Admin hit the nail right on the head.
Once you know a board line (PSH) and lets say that the 10'6"WAA is 167lts and feels kinda of corky for your weight, then you can figure out about how much a 10 foot WAA at 155 liters would FLOAT you.
It is just another number, but a very useful one.

[Weasels wake]

You can tell by my avatar which side of this discussion I fall on, but we are only talking more info., that's all.
Nobody is saying you can learn about a board by knowing it's volumn alone, anymore that you can with it's length alone.
So if Blane isn't so keen on volumn info. then why show it's length?
What the big deal with an inch or two if the shapes are so different?

Us windsurfers need volumn info. because we are standing on the board the whole time, sometimes even when the wind quits, will that board get me thru a lull?

As a SUPer, we are standing on the board the whole time as well, sometimes when we are not on a wave, will that board float me when I'm not moving?

Hence the desire for volumn info.  It's just another tool we all can use.

[Allan Cheateaux]

I've gotta say, while I see merits to both sides of the argument, in the end it's trying to bend one sport to anothers stick. Stand up Paddling isn't windsurfing and windsurfing isn't stand up.

I can understand why some people would want to rely on one measuring board (volume), but coming from a surfing background, it would never help me in a decision. (Mainly because I make my own boards and know what will float me and be comfortable.) I use the same software as Blane, and I gotta say that relying solely on volume will prob leave you ass out. Plan shape, foil and rocker are the things that need to be making the judgment call. If I had a board that had less volume, but glided better that something that had more volume, which one would I choose? Volume is just one more thing, that I feel, isn't pertinent to the process.

But if you need it to help make a call, I can see why you would be frustrated.

Question, as a sailor, if 2 boards are both 140 liters and one is thinner in foil, wider in template and shorter in length then the other, how does volume figure into the decision?

I would say length has more to do with handling and "surfability" (is that even a word?) than volume. Length lends to swing weight etc... Which is why its important to me. I could give a crap if it'll float, how does it surf is the question I want to know...

[CB1]

I'm with Weasals Wake.  It is just one more piece of additional information that could be helpful.  It's not the only parameter to judge a board by, but it helps when looking at all the other dimensions. I think it would be helpful for all manufactures to list a boards length, mid-width, thickness, volume, nose & tail widths.

IMHO, the more data the manufactures throw at us the better off we are when making decisions.  Especially for customers like myself,  who had to by their boards sight unseen.  All I can say is thanks to DW and this forum for help narrowing the choices down. 

It seems we see comments about what weight riders can use a board, so it seems they are almost trying to estimate the volume.   

[Weasels wake]

The problem is that production windsurfing boards give a volume that is actually guessed, not measured. There is not volume measurement at the cobra factory as far as I am aware. I have a 84 litre jp twin fin that I am sure is smaller than my 79 litre JP pro wave. The 84 is shorter so, it that why it feels sinkier? I think volume in SUP may help as a guide but could also miss lead because of different dimensions. Also its not worth it if the manufactures only guess and not actually measure.

I'll bet the 84 has most of it's volumn around the mast track and not the tail, volumn placement makes a big differance, but those JP's are a sweet ride, got one myself.  The only board better than a JP (IMO) is the SOS Rocket, Ordonez is the man, I've never ridden a better board.
Hea wait, this isn't a windsurf forum, I'll shutup now. 

[heave]

I can see the volume dim eventually becoming more valuable to the comsumer in the smaller hi-performance boards as a minimal buoyancy rating thing for the rider's weight. 

Board weight is another dimension.

       

[jd]

Not being a windsurfer and only a surfer, the volume numbers mean nothing to me.  So far, I've been able to discern what would work and not work by looking at the board and its dimensions.

My question is to the people here who are on the side of volume, I seem to recall one or more of them talking about how the sub vector is far more stable than boards 1 foot longer.

Query to those people the difference in volume between the sub vector and the boards that are 1 foot or more longer?

I suspect the sub vector has less volume (though I totally speculating) given the fact that a foot of foam 28-30 inches wide of 4"+ thick board probably is a significant amount of volume.  But, I'm only guessing.

Still, it seems the distribution of that volume is going to play a major role and that cannot be determined by looking at a number.

And another question is does anyone know how much volume differential is required between Board A by Manufacturer (or in some cases shaper) X and Board B by Manufacturer (or shaper) Y for yourself to make a significant difference and just what is the result of that different.  does the board surf better, is it more stable, or does it just float your weight better - float and stability are 2 different things.  I sure you can make a 26" wide board 12 feet long have the same volume or more as a 10 foot long 30 inch wide board.  Which one is going to be more stable for someone that weighs 230lbs?

[Scotty Mac]

Your right weasel, the JP twin is a sweet board, never ridden on of Sean's, don't see them in oz but I believe you.

I guess overall what i would like to say is if they volumes are going to be quoted on any type of board, sup or windsurfing , they should be measured (atleast for production boards). I guess as Blane said, most software gives the volume of the handmade boards but would be good to see how acurate the software is against an acurate measurement.

A measuring tank would be a simple instrument....

[Admin]

Just for fun

My question is to the people here who are on the side of volume, I seem to recall one or more of them talking about how the sub vector is far more stable than boards 1 foot longer.

Query to those people the difference in volume between the sub vector and the boards that are 1 foot or more longer?

I suspect the sub vector has less volume (though I totally speculating) given the fact that a foot of foam 28-30 inches wide of 4"+ thick board probably is a significant amount of volume.  

That is a great example.  The sub vector is a very big, high volume board for its length.  More conventionally shaped boards at a foot longer would have a much lower volume.  I just looked at the 9'2 x 27.5 x 3.85 I am riding in AKU shaper .  Adjust only the length by adding 1 foot and volume rises by 12 liters (meaning it will float an additional 26 lbs).  Adding only .4" inch of thickness gets the same change in volume.

[SUP Sports ®]

Volume is a very important parameter...we try to give it whenever possible...and, also use our experience to extrapolate and guesstimate it, when it is missing...quite a bit more telling than any thickness measurement...

The distribution of volume is also obviously important...

There is a concept called "virtual" volume...which loosely defined is the volume that you "feel" when using the board...this can get tied in with stability...that said, there are a number of SUP's with high volume that are not as stable as lower volume boards...it is not directly proportional...too thick and you get what I call the "bowling ball" effect...boards that sit lower in the water can be more stable...but, if not designed right will suffer from stickiness and sluggisness...

Bottom contours and rail configs can go a long way toward increasing secondary stability on SUP's...this is where a kayak shaper/designer like a Corran or Steve Brom...etc...who also builds surfboards & SUP's...an outside the box thinker...can have an advantage over a pure surfboard shaper...

Who's gonna be the George Greenough of SUP?...;-)