Author Topic: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind  (Read 5300 times)

Wave Chaser

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2020, 09:05:50 AM »
Sorry for the dumb question, but what exactly is "back winding"?

I have only tried my 5M Cabrinha Crosswing X2 on a landboard so far.  Feels balanced until a gust of 20+mph, then it wants to twist. Instead of pulling both hands forward, it pushes back on my front hand. 

Also, when I am holding the wing in neutral by the front handle, it floats nicely until a strong gust, then it has a downward force.

I assume this is just a function of being over-powered, but are you guys saying that the Ensis wing doesn't do this?

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2020, 11:09:00 AM »
Sorry for the dumb question, but what exactly is "back winding"?

Back winding and draft movement both look the same, but are caused by different things.

Back winding is when the canopy starts to collapse at the leading edge, and the collapse continues moving back if not corrected, by changing course and sailing less upwind. This is caused by sailing too high into the wind for the performance limit of your wing. The apparent wind you make going fast, contributes to this, by changing the angle of the wind your wing sees.

Draft stability/movement is when the same happens, simply from too much wind power for the performance limit of your wing. This causes an increase in back hand pressure to maintain control.

Wave Chaser

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2020, 11:35:43 AM »
Very interesting, thanks Dwight. 

So I guess this problem would be exacerbated with a hydrofoil that is very good at pointing upwind (high aspect, thin profile), combined with a deep-draft (grunty) wing...

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2020, 02:49:41 PM »
So I guess this problem would be exacerbated with a hydrofoil that is very good at pointing upwind (high aspect, thin profile), combined with a deep-draft (grunty) wing...

yes

Funny thing though....Ensis is not a deep draft. Itís a mid sized leading edge and middle of the road draft depth, but it is one of the most grunty and best upwind. Looks can deceive.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 02:54:17 PM by Dwight (DW) »

PonoBill

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2020, 07:07:19 AM »
Leading-edge diameter is a limiting factor for pointing upwind, the most efficient sails have aerodynamically shaped masts that pivot with the sail. They also use rigid or semi-rigid wings instead of fabric. I expect our hand wings will go through a development stage where the inflated tubes go away for the serious speed fans, with minor changes for the rest of us who are happy to just be flying.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Wind Runner

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2020, 07:45:44 AM »
Leading-edge diameter is a limiting factor for pointing upwind, the most efficient sails have aerodynamically shaped masts that pivot with the sail. They also use rigid or semi-rigid wings instead of fabric. I expect our hand wings will go through a development stage where the inflated tubes go away for the serious speed fans, with minor changes for the rest of us who are happy to just be flying.

Very interesting thoughts!  Yes, I've also imagined that wings may end up having a combination of a "tent pole" type structure along with some inflated section(s).  By "tent pole" I mean some semi-rigid yet flexible structure that can be disassembled and packed... like a much more flexible and lighter version of a windsurfing mast for the leading edge that goes through an inflatable section or something like that.  I can picture it even if I can't describe it :)

deja vu

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2021, 08:03:05 AM »
Here's a review of the F-One Strike -- apparently it goes upwind really well (best wing upwind that's he's tested)! This is Tucker's favourite wing he usually doesn't say things like this since his shop sells so many different brands).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GMvszYZIq4
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 08:11:31 AM by deja vu »

Wingingtanuki

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2021, 09:47:14 AM »
Boy, I got cold just looking at that.

deja vu

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2021, 10:15:33 AM »
Sorry for the dumb question, but what exactly is "back winding"?

Back winding and draft movement both look the same, but are caused by different things.

Back winding is when the canopy starts to collapse at the leading edge, and the collapse continues moving back if not corrected, by changing course and sailing less upwind. This is caused by sailing too high into the wind for the performance limit of your wing. The apparent wind you make going fast, contributes to this, by changing the angle of the wind your wing sees. Draft stability/movement is when the same happens, simply from too much wind power for the performance limit of your wing. This causes an increase in back hand pressure to maintain control.

I know someone that has used the Cabrinha V2 on both water and snow.  He says it's his favourite wing on snow and least favourite on water (he tests wings).  On water he really dislikes the backwinding.  Totally different feel on snow.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 10:17:53 AM by deja vu »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2021, 12:49:47 PM »

I know someone that has used the Cabrinha V2 on both water and snow.  He says it's his favourite wing on snow and least favourite on water (he tests wings).  On water he really dislikes the backwinding.  Totally different feel on snow.

The Cabrinha Mantis is way better. I expect the v2 to go away.

Supfool

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2021, 10:52:17 AM »
Leading-edge diameter is a limiting factor for pointing upwind, the most efficient sails have aerodynamically shaped masts that pivot with the sail. They also use rigid or semi-rigid wings instead of fabric. I expect our hand wings will go through a development stage where the inflated tubes go away for the serious speed fans, with minor changes for the rest of us who are happy to just be flying.

This is the way.  Going from a reduced diameter mast and windfoil sail to a wing with a moderate diameter, the difference is vast. I realize it's not the only factor, other things like luff size and the wing's aspect ratio are important, but a fat leading edge is key as far as I'm concerned. My windfoil setup absolutely climbs upwind compared effortlessly compared to the wings I have flown,  I am planning to start to use a harness when wingfoiling in hopes that this improves things. 

Mike dubs

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2021, 06:35:39 AM »
Been using an old da kine kitesurfing harness and spreader but itís overkill. So built my own.
RDX neoprene weight belt, blue planet reel leash, maniac sliding hook and some black zip ties. Works brilliantly, itís really minimal and doesnít get in the way at all and more than man enough for the pull of a wing. Also with the reel leash I no longer get tangled👍🏻 Mike

Dontsink

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2021, 07:34:21 AM »
Been using an old da kine kitesurfing harness and spreader but itís overkill. So built my own.
RDX neoprene weight belt, blue planet reel leash, maniac sliding hook and some black zip ties. Works brilliantly, itís really minimal and doesnít get in the way at all and more than man enough for the pull of a wing. Also with the reel leash I no longer get tangled👍🏻 Mike

That looks perfect.
So a short spreader does not compress the kidneys too much?.Comfy enough for a long upwind?.

PonoBill

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2021, 04:49:50 PM »
perfecto. No, dontsink, you don't even need the fat section in the back, but it sure looks comfy. My harness is just a belt. All the dick-measurers are yelling "you don't need a harness, you pussy!" and they are almost right. Hooked-in with 40mph wind and going as hard upwind as I can manage is still a relatively light tug with a wing. Doing the same thing with a sail or a kite I'd be getting my kidneys crushed with my stupid belt. The purpose of a harness with a wing is not to resist the mighty pull, it's to rest and cruise, maybe eat a sandwich or sip some champagne while you run upwind. It's not needed, it's just so very nice. And you can point a few degrees higher. Just don't forget to unhook before you jibe as I do eighty percent of the time. Not pretty.

Dan Taylor is using a bungee for his harness lines. Show me a windsurfer or kiter who would do that and I'll cross the street to avoid that lunatic. But Dan has the right idea. A wing harness turns your "two hours in the water and my arms are dead" into "three hours in the water and I could go for two more but I think I hear my wife calling".
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

VB_Foil

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Re: Best wings or wing shapes for going upwind
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2021, 06:49:05 PM »
Alright Mike Dubs, I need to replicate your setup. Have a real leash. Have a spreader bar thing. Which weight belt model and did you need to add anything to it?  Is this the belt??

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XLDNXS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_PHTD3SQ05770QERWSY34?psc=1
Iím a 5í9Ē 65kg rider:

Boards:
   4'5.5" 33L Armstrong
   4í10Ē 37L FSM
   5'1" 74L FSM
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Foils: Armstrong 800, 1050, 1550, 1850, 2400
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