Author Topic: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?  (Read 3356 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2020, 08:14:40 PM »
Very unusual, unique in fact. It straightens itself as you pull it. for some people that's great--turns a crappy stroke into a good one. But if you aren't close to a good blade placement at the beginning of the stroke then it put some nasty torque on your forearms and shoulders. The Konihi is similar, but less forgiving for poor blade placement and not sinking the entire blade.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

soepkip

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2020, 10:19:21 PM »
I started with a Kenalu Molokai 105, brokre a few blades, then used a Maliko 95 for a long time and for a year now a Mana 90.

Tried a Maliko 95 again yesterday but there is no going back for me. Just didn't feel good.

I have my paddle length at minus 3 inches that is probably the reason I never hit my foil...

I pump with the paddle in one hand but I lose to much speed when I turn to get another wave, perhaps I should try a longer paddle and do pump/pump/paddle

jondrums

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2020, 10:08:16 AM »
here's my unproven assessment of why pump-pump paddle is working better than just pumping -

It seems like the center of mass of most standup paddle board setups is ahead of the center of lift of the foil.  That means if you completely unweight the board, it doesn't gain elevation it noses down.  So when pumping a SUP, you need to keep some weight on the back foot to drive the board forward and up during the unweighting.   Seems almost impossible to be as efficient as if you could completely unweight the board like with a balanced prone board.  Getting the paddle in the water allows me to pull the board back up higher on the foil and gain a little speed.

It is much easier to pump a board when you're already going fast, and when you've got the foil high in the water.  The difference is absolutely dramatic, with the biggest effect coming from being high in the water.

So it seems I bleed a little height and/or speed on every pump, and gain it back on the paddle stroke.

Beasho

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2020, 01:25:10 PM »
here's my unproven assessment of why pump-pump paddle is working better than just pumping -

It seems like the center of mass of most standup paddle board setups is ahead of the center of lift of the foil.  That means if you completely unweight the board, it doesn't gain elevation it noses down.  So when pumping a SUP, you need to keep some weight on the back foot to drive the board forward and up during the unweighting.   Seems almost impossible to be as efficient as if you could completely unweight the board like with a balanced prone board.  Getting the paddle in the water allows me to pull the board back up higher on the foil and gain a little speed.

It is much easier to pump a board when you're already going fast, and when you've got the foil high in the water.  The difference is absolutely dramatic, with the biggest effect coming from being high in the water.

So it seems I bleed a little height and/or speed on every pump, and gain it back on the paddle stroke.

This is interesting and makes slightly more sense than all the Covid theories going around.  What I am translating this into is that the paddle allows you to gain elevation by literally pulling yourself Up-Ward.  This is similar to people starting in flat water who use a very aggressive paddle stroke to break free from the 'surface tension'.  You are doing a similar move but already flying so it doesn't have to be as aggressive. 

I pulled off a loop the other day but did NOT use the paddle.  I will have to re-incorporate the pump-pump paddle approach and see how much more I can get out of the circle.  I have found my duration is 20 to 25 seconds from fresh.  Any wave riding distance starts to erode this limit.  Because I am goofy foot this was a backside pump.  Front side loops are much easier but my main surf spot is all rights so I have to overcome the back-side loop challenge.

The time on this loop shows ~ 20 seconds to get back to the start ~ half way.  The sad part was the subsequent wave had no power and I was too far out of gas to keep riding a 1 foot mini wave.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:29:07 PM by Beasho »

soepkip

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2020, 02:06:45 AM »
here's my unproven assessment of why pump-pump paddle is working better than just pumping -

It seems like the center of mass of most standup paddle board setups is ahead of the center of lift of the foil.  That means if you completely unweight the board, it doesn't gain elevation it noses down.  So when pumping a SUP, you need to keep some weight on the back foot to drive the board forward and up during the unweighting.   Seems almost impossible to be as efficient as if you could completely unweight the board like with a balanced prone board.  Getting the paddle in the water allows me to pull the board back up higher on the foil and gain a little speed.

It is much easier to pump a board when you're already going fast, and when you've got the foil high in the water.  The difference is absolutely dramatic, with the biggest effect coming from being high in the water.

So it seems I bleed a little height and/or speed on every pump, and gain it back on the paddle stroke.

Yes it must be easier to pump on a small prone board, but I need time and timing to stand up on a sup because of my bad knees and stiff back, prone is a no go for me.

How long should a paddle be to do pump-pump-peddle? I think going from minus 3 inches to plus 1 inch is a big step.

I think I will have to get one of these longer handles and go longer in small steps

jondrums

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2020, 10:40:33 PM »
For what its worth, my paddle is 79" tip to top of handle.  I'm 6'1" so I guess that is +6"
Maybe its too long?  I've pretty much always used this length for surfing and I didn't change for foiling.
What are other people running?

SUPdad

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2020, 12:15:06 AM »
here's my unproven assessment of why pump-pump paddle is working better than just pumping -

It seems like the center of mass of most standup paddle board setups is ahead of the center of lift of the foil.  That means if you completely unweight the board, it doesn't gain elevation it noses down.  So when pumping a SUP, you need to keep some weight on the back foot to drive the board forward and up during the unweighting.   Seems almost impossible to be as efficient as if you could completely unweight the board like with a balanced prone board.  Getting the paddle in the water allows me to pull the board back up higher on the foil and gain a little speed.

It is much easier to pump a board when you're already going fast, and when you've got the foil high in the water.  The difference is absolutely dramatic, with the biggest effect coming from being high in the water.

So it seems I bleed a little height and/or speed on every pump, and gain it back on the paddle stroke.

That makes a lot of sense. Iíve been thinking about what youíve said and am wondering if shimming the tail so it generates more down force would be helpful?  Intuitively, it seems like it would. But what is odd and doesnít make sense to me is that the Armstrong website recommends the +1 shim is good for pumping. This shim generates the least amount of downforce amongst their selection of shims. Any thoughts about that?

jondrums

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2020, 02:08:25 PM »
Shimming the tail would definitely help counteract the front loaded mass of SUP.  Two downsides make this questionable - 1) shimming the tail adds drag, and negates some lift.  Both are bad for pumping because you need that much more energy input from your legs/paddle. 2) I think a shimmed tail will provide lifting moment that is variable across speeds.  I hate my older foil setups that required a weight shift when going fast versus slow (gotta get way forward on steep fast drops, then move back as speed settles down).

I'll experiment a little with it, but I'm not hopeful.

PonoBill

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2020, 03:46:42 PM »
For what its worth, my paddle is 79" tip to top of handle.  I'm 6'1" so I guess that is +6"
Maybe its too long?  I've pretty much always used this length for surfing and I didn't change for foiling.
What are other people running?

That's fairly long for a surf paddle. I've seen people use long paddles so they can paddle-pump and even add auxiliary handles like the ones Randall Barna makes to give them a good length for getting up on a bump and then go to the longer one for pump-paddle, but in general they wind up going back to short.

If the real value of a paddle for pumping is pushing the board back up then that happens at the very beginning of the stroke when you are at the bottom of a pump, the board is close to the water, and you're leaning out to reach. That might explain the quick splash vs. stroke I see from the people who do that. If you go a little shorter it will feel good for getting going and feel lousy for pumping for a little while, but you'll get used to it, and it might work better in the long run.

The real champs of pumping that I've seen are the prone foilers, and of course there's no paddle involved. They tend to keep their board very high in the water when pumping, which minimizes drag by reducing the amount of mast in the water. It seems to me that any gain from getting down low enough to paddle would be offset by the higher drag, so Beasho's explanation makes some sense to me, though I'm not entirely sure about the center of mass part.

During pumping the board angle changes dramatically and dynamically. The wing is going through cycles of pitching down to gain speed and pitching up to rise almost to the point of stalling. The center of mass is located high above the center of lift, which means with changes on pitch angle the center of mass moves well behind the center of lift when the board is pitched up, and well in front pitched down. That is, after all, how we control these things--by moving the center of mass relative to lift.

I'm not sure how paddling is changing that, it doesn't seem like it could add that much power, especially after the increase in drag gets subtracted, and it's not the most powerful stroke I've ever seen anyone make--it's more like a dab. But the little splash and short stroke might help with timing, or changing the board angle, or it might just be in your head. Since it isn't something I can do, I can only watch and guess.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

jondrums

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2020, 04:58:21 PM »
a couple of years ago a frequent poster on the Australian SUP forum (Colas) basically got laughed at relentlessly for religiously suggesting that people mount their foils further forward on SUP boards.  His idea was to match the center of gravity and center of buoyancy of the board, with the center of effort of the foil.  Nowadays, people are coming around to having a more foward mounted foil and that's probably the best solution rather than shimming the tail.


SUPdad

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2020, 07:27:18 PM »
The prone guys who make it look most effortless donít seem to change the angle of their board very much. I asked a local prone guy how he does it and he said itís not so much pushing with your back foot to get the nose up, itís more just unweighting and then making sure you push down hard on your front foot. This goes along with the videos Iíve seen.

I have been mounting my foil nearly as far forward as possible lately. Seems to help a little but I still canít do it. :o  I have also found that it gets quite a bit harder to balance with the foil more forward. Iíve gotten used to it but I think thereís room for improvement in board design.

SUPdad

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2020, 07:35:43 PM »
I donít think shimming is the miracle cure either but makes me wonder how much it matters. I still donít understand why Armstrong recommends the +1 shim (least amount of down force) for pumping. I realize manufacturerís recommendations are usually pretty generic but it goes against my reasoning. Any have thoughts re this?

jondrums

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2020, 09:14:00 PM »
there are quite some mysteries with pumping.  What I've found is that it is a bit of muscle memory, a bit of rhythm and a lot of trial and error.  It helps a lot to be on a big high aspect foil with respect to your body weight (lowest possible drag with highest possible lift). 

I'm trying out varying the tail shimming, tail size, and fuse length and haven't drawn any clear conclusions yet.  But I'll be sure to start a thread when I learn anything definitive.

Beasho

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2020, 09:37:15 AM »
Pumping is incredibly energy intensive.  You are typically traveling at 10 mph.  This is equivalent to a 6 minute mile.

Go on a treadmill and attempt to run at a 6 minute mile pace.  How long would you last? 

Then take a 25 lbs weight and carry it in a backpack while you are attempting to run the 6 minute mile pace.  Humans are pretty efficient at running.  There is nothing that comes for free when pumping it is NOT as efficient as riding a bicycle. 

This is why younger more fit guys (and girls) have a huge advantage when it comes to pumping.  So even if you get the technique perfected and super efficient there is a huge amount of cardio required and energy expended. 

We are also finding that clean flat water is much easier to pump in than choppy soup that alters the flow over the wing. 

For what it is worth I can only last 20 to 25 seconds pumping when fresh.  With regards to Cardio I could pick up and run 2 to 3 miles at a 9 minute mile pace.  Getting to an 8 minute mile pace would take some training and weight loss. 

PonoBill

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Re: Cheaper and more durable alternative to kenalu Mana paddle?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2020, 06:51:39 PM »
I'm constantly surprised at how much energy this sport takes. I never feel all that tired, but the difference in how quickly I can get up at the beginning of a session vs. middle or end is huge. I still feel fine and ready to go, but everything stops working.

That applies to all the muscle memory stuff too. At the beginning I get a couple of jibes that almost work--or occasionally, surprisingly do work. At the end, nothing but junk and splashes. And I don't feel any different. But when I'm driving home, keeping my arms up on the wheel is a strain.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 06:53:12 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.