Author Topic: The Slingshot High Roller Project  (Read 49346 times)

Dwight (DW)

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2019, 06:54:10 AM »
How about some photos from Mexico  ;D

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2019, 02:04:21 AM »
We were here.  We didn't take any pics but there are a zillion online.  You don't realize the magnitude of the selfie stick craze until you are in a full tourism venue.  Not a waking moment goes undocumented from 30 angles.  It was cool and we may do it again with he grandkids but it is a little unsettling to me. 


Wetstuff

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2019, 07:01:13 AM »
 Boss...  Clarify, to someone who does not have the experience to visualize your words...  You are able to stand on the board while it is underwater, positioning your feet, then, getting the wing powered up, ja? 

I am pretty sure I understand the business about 'too corky' - the volume exceeds your ability to keep sunk/stable...  How much (%) stability does the foil add?

Then, how much of you is above the waterline?  You mention foothooks, but you were able to do this without straps?  My primary concern: wing re-starts.  I'd have to have a backpack to accommodate gear for hiking out of saltwater marshes  ..a nasty slog at best.  Thanks.

Jim

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Wetstuff

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2019, 07:19:54 AM »
Boss,  I'm a visual learner ...in 'settings' cut the playback speed to .25  ...is the first 5 seconds of this video what you are doing?  Is your board also 'nose high'?  Would you think that board appears corky?  Sorry for the ignorance, but foiling can look like murky water will Bull sharks.



Jim
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Dwight (DW)

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2019, 01:21:46 PM »
Jim, watch Billy on the f-one Wing Board knee start. This is a board in the volume range perfect for those not living in the Gorge or Maui. Itís sinking, but not enough to make it difficult. This is what starting my personal wing board is like.

Also learned a tip off Instagram from onemauiday, making knee starts easier on the thigh muscles. Twist your hips and balls of your feet sideways, as you stand. It puts your legs in a more powerful position.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 01:30:03 PM by Dwight (DW) »

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2019, 01:28:01 PM »
Boss...  Clarify, to someone who does not have the experience to visualize your words...  You are able to stand on the board while it is underwater, positioning your feet, then, getting the wing powered up, ja? 

I am pretty sure I understand the business about 'too corky' - the volume exceeds your ability to keep sunk/stable...  How much (%) stability does the foil add?

Then, how much of you is above the waterline?  You mention foothooks, but you were able to do this without straps?  My primary concern: wing re-starts.  I'd have to have a backpack to accommodate gear for hiking out of saltwater marshes  ..a nasty slog at best.  Thanks.

Jim


Hi Jim,

With the two Dwarfcraft boards I am able to stand on the boards underwater.  Once mounted it feels very stable.  I am chest deep on the little one which seems ideal and very well supported.  It is standing in a pretty tight ball.  My knees are in my armpits and my butt is just above heel height.  The board pressing up on the soles of your feet holds it very firmly in place.  The board has a great pad and the traction is solid.  My feet are balanced right on the existing inserts on these boards so that will be nice for using the foot hooks.  Once standing, it is no problem to reposition your feet through a little heel-then-toe-shimmy. So if I use the outer inserts for the hooks I will be able to wiggle out to them.  I think that being able to press outward on the vertical part of the hooks will be great.  Full straps seem like they would be awesome but harder to get into.  I practiced pushing the board deep with my feet by standing and then allowing it to come back up by crouching again.  That feels good. 

To get on I have to force the board underwater with an arm push to full arm length.  My hands are gripping  the nose and the tail of the board on the far side of the centerline (centered causes problems when you go to get a foot on).  I then put my right foot on the deck.  That partially mounted position is actually extremely stable.  You can hang out there.  Then I push down hard on the nose and put the left foot on.  You can use your hands to gain balance at that point and once you do it is all good.  I can mount regular or goofy this way but I always start right foot first. 

One of our days in Mexico was too light to actually wingfoil so we brought the 3'6 to the ocean and mounted it with a foil (Axis 920 on a 75 mast).  We also rigged a 5.0 Swing to see if we could get it in hand with the smaller boards.  The foil did make the board feel more stable.  We were able to reel in the wing and lift it overhead as well.  It took a half hour of failing to get there but there but after some position tweaking it started working.  In the process I discovered that I actually can use the wing for balance (as was suggested above).  When I get into the one foot on position my right hand is now free and my left hand is still holding the nose.  That left hand has the wing leash on it.  So, if I tug the leash with my right hand the leading edge handle pulls right into it.  Having the stability from the floating wing makes getting the second foot on really nice as well.  The wind on this day wasn't strong enough to hold the wing up so we were eventually just falling off after supporting the wing for a while but it made me really hopeful. 

Getting the board to surface under control will be the hard part.  We haven't tried that yet.  I imagine it will take a lot of fails to get there. I am just pleased to have gotten the early gear stuff worked out to where I can begin working on it.

PS: There are two waterstarts that I am seeing  guys doing on sinker boards.  One is the knee variety like in the vid you posted.  I think that looks awesome as well and it allows use of a little higher volume board as well (just under the surface).  That one won't work for me though.  I can't use my legs like that any longer.  The second kind is starting from an underwater stand.  This vid (next post) show it best.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:08:19 PM by Admin »

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2019, 01:35:42 PM »

Wetstuff

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2019, 08:19:04 AM »
Big thanks, guys!   I'd have difficulty with that Jupiter launch, Dwight.  I'm a crip with an INOP left foot due to back issues, so it takes me an inordinately long time, atop a forward over-balance, to stand on anything, whereas with kites - the buggers yanked me up with my feet already established in footstraps. I cannot go back to kites, nor do I want the setup complications compared to these wings, but I love the wind.

I theorize - if I can do a semi-sinker start (without the board wanting 180 on me) I can get the wing high enough to help stabilize me as I slowly gain forward momentum.  I tried a couple of boards, pretending the wing was a kite, with me on my back in the shallows ..eh-eh, fail.  It seems it would have taken a very strong wind ...while, blowing you out of position in thick chop. My arms were not long enough (flaccid extensions do not work) to sufficiently elevate and angle the wing to gain power.   I still think it doable... 

Boss,  "I practiced pushing the board deep with my feet by standing and then allowing it to come back up by crouching again."  That's the action I was imagining.  It will be a while before our water is warm enough to make that happen, but I hope to get South for some boat tow instruction.  Thanks again.

Jim

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2019, 09:03:58 AM »
Hey Jim,

I have a similar situation.  I have trouble getting signals through to my feet and legs due to MS.  Some motions are just missing now.  My mind sends the signal but I get no leg response.   This is much worse in my right leg (and both get worse when I am hot).  My legs still do a lot of things just fine but certain motions are gone.  Once I am standing most of wingfoiling is really good for me (unaffected).  I can't tell you how happy I am for that.  I had written off windsports (which have been a huge part of my life) so this a kind of a miracle.  For that reason I worked out a different way of doing the knee start.  I can't get up from a kneel without using my hands.  So I get in runners stance and start from there.  It works really well but it has some drawbacks as well.  Kneestarts on a small board in big swell get very difficult.  That is why this is so appealing to me. 

I put my bad foot on first because I don't need to get it right immediately.  If that foot lands on the board wrong (and it usually does) I just sink the board a little again and reposition it under my foot.  This takes the burden off my foot doing it right.  Then I go for my second foot.  The whole process is pretty quick and if it fails every few times, it is not hard to just start again. 

Chan and I take our grandkids to the local pool on the weekends.  The pool has kickboards and those are great to practice on.  Most pools have something like this that will work well.  It sounds weird but you can stand on one underwater even though they are very low volume.  You can also stack 2 or 3 for more volume.  This is actually really fun and it will tell you with no commitment if your body will like this.  One kickboard is very easy to sink and doesn't give a lot of up-push but it will give you a great feel.  It will be hard at first but play with it for a half hour and you will get it. 

« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 09:09:54 AM by Admin »

surlygringo

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2019, 11:43:32 AM »
Hi Admin,

I have been eagerly following your progress on the high roller project as I now find myself spending most of the year inland.The summertime light air conditions are really marginal, mostly too light to wing. The fall and the spring it blows, but itís crazy, like 25 with gusts to 60 crazy, so it seems like if I want to continue with the wing a small board might be a real advantage.

I have been a shortboard surfer my whole life, so I have lots of experience killing time standing on boards underwater. I can see how the waterstart could work and it just seems to make more sense in a lot of ways.  I have to confess, however, that I donít recall there being a huge difference in balancing a 30ltr hp board vs. a 38ltr Uber groveler(I am around 90KG). From your last couple posts I understand that you are leaning towards a very small board. I would think from my surfing experience that there might big a bigger volume range that would work, depending on operator skills/injuries/etc.

I realize that itís hard to discern a lot from videoís, but I think some people are doing the crouching waterstart on boards that have a lot higher volume ratio than .35. I know that when I am just sitting waiting for waves on a board at .35 ratio I am into the water almost to my armpits(take a look at the famous shot of Mick Fanning and the shark at J-Bay, he rides around .35). When I look at the f-one video you just posted above it looks like that guy is pretty low in the water, so he could well be riding around.35. However, take a look at the crazy good guy in a video you posted awhile ago in a waterstart thread[Itís always beautiful at Vata cove(My French is pretty minimal)] He seems to be riding a lot more volume. If you watch when he takes a rest before his third waterstart he is sitting straddling the board and he is way up out of the water, as is the nose of the board. He messes with the wing etc. and the whole time he is sitting much higher than I sit on my grovel boards which are huge 37,38ltrs(.42 or a bit higher). I would think I would have to be riding at least another 10ltrs more to sit that high.

I get that everything is personal preference, but just for the sake of those of us who donít ever talk to the pros or have the resources to try several boards on our way to the right volume do you think the super low volume is really the ticket for everybody? In some ways it would by nice to just bolt a foil onto a skimboard and have it work, but around here where the wind can also drop from crazy to nothing, the prone paddle back towing your wing would be a lot easier with 40ltrs than 20.

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2019, 01:46:10 PM »
Hi Surly,

Those great questions and I wish that I had firm answers :).  My few days of messing with this are the sum total of my knowledge. 

You know the feeling of standing on a submerged shortboard, so that is going to be your best reference.  It is a pretty comfortable thing on a board that works for you.  You aren't really struggling to get the board underwater and it wants to stay put pretty well.  Is that your experience as well?  That is how I am feeling on the smaller Dwarfcraft boards (particularly the 3'6).  The bigger boards (both of the High Roller's) felt very different than that at my weight.  It was much more work to get them down and I couldn't get them to stay put underwater.  I felt like a partially submerged kneestart would have been possible for someone of my size (but not for me).  When I got on the Dwarfcraft it was, "ahh, there you are".

I watched the video that you mentioned (pasted below) and saw the same thing.  He is making the squat start work on a floaty board.  That board is 39 Liters.  He is also doing that start in the straps.  Incredible.  I am afraid that one is out of reach for me.  Thankfully, I do see most of the guys doing their squat starts in a much deeper (chest deep) position.  That is what I am used to from standing on a shortboard and that is the style that has me hopeful.  I feel pretty flexible for 53 but 17 I am not.  I can sit on my heels flat footed with my feet at shoulder width with my knees in my armpits but moving my feet wider (even an inch out from there) starts to get uncomfortable.  Squatting low like that in the footstraps would require massive flexibility. 

I am not at all sure that I have the best board shape for this or that these volumes are even accurate.  They may well be but I wouldn't know.  I do feel like a waterstart is possible for me at this volume.  It feels comfortable enough to squat on and maneuver and I can get the nose to surface with no wind.  The board feels well balanced nose to tail.  I think that is a reasonable start point.  Would it be better to have a 4'4 or 4'8 at this volume?  I really don't know.  I will spend a few weeks on this one and see how far I can get.  :)

« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 01:50:05 PM by Admin »

surlygringo

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2019, 11:15:25 AM »
I threw a 32ltr board in the pool and experimented with balancing on it while extending my arms overhead as though I was arranging a wing. It seems doable to me, although it does require some effort.  I think you are right that a smaller board would be easier. A few stacked up kickboards stay down with zero effort(although that may be like 5ltrs). Unfortunately I donít have access to a 25 ltr. board to try out. In the next few days I will experiment with one of my grovellers. It is 5í6Ē x 22Ē x 38ltrs, so it is similar in size to some available prone foil boards. I am also looking around for a boogie board to try. I donít know if one can get volume specs. on those, but they are certainly a good example of short and wide with evenly distributed volume. I am still hoping that with some practice i can make a higher volume board work as I think it would make the inevitable paddle in when the wind dies a lot easier.  Looking forward to hearing how the little dwarfcraft goes.

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2019, 03:43:17 PM »
I threw a 32ltr board in the pool and experimented with balancing on it while extending my arms overhead as though I was arranging a wing. It seems doable to me, although it does require some effort.  I think you are right that a smaller board would be easier. A few stacked up kickboards stay down with zero effort(although that may be like 5ltrs). Unfortunately I donít have access to a 25 ltr. board to try out. In the next few days I will experiment with one of my grovellers. It is 5í6Ē x 22Ē x 38ltrs, so it is similar in size to some available prone foil boards. I am also looking around for a boogie board to try. I donít know if one can get volume specs. on those, but they are certainly a good example of short and wide with evenly distributed volume. I am still hoping that with some practice i can make a higher volume board work as I think it would make the inevitable paddle in when the wind dies a lot easier.  Looking forward to hearing how the little dwarfcraft goes.

That is really cool to hear.  I am 77 kg (170 lbs).  At your 90 kg there is a 13 kg difference between us which is the difference in liters between the little Dwarfcraft at 19 liters and your 32 liter board.  With 1 liter floating 1 kg that should mean that we are feeling roughly the same thing.  For me the bigger Dwarfcraft at 25 is possible but it is much more unruly.  That seems about as big as I could manage but I think it would be very inconsistent for me right now, especially in wild water.   I have been seeing a lot of images of the F-one kids recently on smaller pocket kite boards.  These guys  look to be in my weight range.  These Pocket boards are available 19 and 21 liters.  I am not sure if that is just availability or preference for them.  At least the first step is easier on a little board :)

« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 04:44:25 PM by Admin »

surlygringo

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2019, 05:14:01 PM »
Admin,

I like the looks of those pocket boards. Itís nice to see that the cool kids are able to make them work. Thanks for the great shot of the board. It is helpful to see the strap placement and the nose flip. Those details will really help me in terms of finding a board once I decide the volume I want to gamble on. I think you are right that around 30-32 will probably work, but I will mess around with some other volumes just for kicks.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: The Slingshot High Roller Project
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2019, 03:09:26 AM »
This type pocket board is my favorite, for one reason, the nose. There is nothing more aggravating than a board with zero tolerance for a ricochet off the water. This board solves that. I made a knock-off of the board. I eventually sold it and went back to a 4í8, but this suits your need perfectly I think.

https://www.groovekiteboards.it/boards/foil-board-skate-freestyle-2/