Author Topic: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020  (Read 11373 times)

eastbound

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2019, 04:10:56 AM »
jeeze rider, you cant just be nice..................

you make think youre rich happy smart and great---try being nice---youll be so much more........
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Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

surfcowboy

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2019, 04:57:14 AM »
The world is full of people who canít follow the data and think the status quo is forever. Ask me about all my friends who spent hours arguing how weíd never bank online or that people wouldnít buy shoes online. Hell, I love folks like that. They let me make money on things that they and the rest of the world ignore until itís too late.

Iím a techie and while my family in Texas drive all over hellís half acre every weekend, I know that I donít drive more than 4 hours at a time ever. I also know that when I need to rentals are cheap. Everyone else like me will figure this out too soon.

Finally, if any of you are watching the life you get out of an electric car it starts to make sense. Two $30k trucks or one Rivan or Tesla?

But I know that most folks wonít do the math. And those that do will keep using the advantage. The bummer is that that builds resentment instead of respect, or admiration, or God forbid, emulation.

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2019, 06:14:40 AM »
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.

Rivian did something that seems like it should have been obvious to anyone approaching the EV market as a new company.  They looked at the vehicle categories that Americans actually buy and went after those first (Trucks and SUV's).  Then they went about designing a platform (their skateboard below) that can be used on almost all vehicles in these categories.   The skateboard is their product.  Ford is already on board for $500 Million, Amazon for $700 Million, and Rivian has made it clear that they have no exclusive agreements.  They are open to sell this platform tech to multiple groups and use it themselves.  Beach's comment about price point is valid.  I see the original Rivian branded offerings as "this is what is possible".  Basically a wish list of truck and SUV features.  It will offer an unprecedented option to people that are comfortable in that price range but more importantly,  it opens the door for other builders to come in and design every possible flavor and certainly lower price points.  In my mind that is a very smart way to approach the market.  Tesla has a very Apple approach.  These are our 4 products, they come in these colors which would you like?  Rivian is going another way.  It is interesting to watch. 

PS: the middle picture is a rendering based on a Rivian patent for a modular rear end.  It is hypothetical but cool and entirely doable should they choose.





« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 07:44:19 AM by Admin »

bbqSUPer

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2019, 06:31:30 AM »
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.


TallDude

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2019, 09:24:26 AM »
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
They (the old ones, don't know about the future ones) come close to waterproof.  The interior is unbelievably spacious.  You can fold the two rear seats down flat in about two seconds each, or up against the side walls in about 10 seconds each, or in 30 seconds each you can pop them out of the car entirely.  You can fit 10' long pipes or posts inside diagonally, or a couple bikes upright, because the interior is so high.  Suicide doors make it easy to load bulky things.  Carries some things easily that would have been a struggle in my old Suburban.  Headroom and legroom are great. 


One article I read about them (or actually about a Toyota concept SUV that writer said hadn't learned from Honda's mistakes with the Element) described how the Element has a cult following, and was perfect in many ways, but never sold well.  The author's theory was that Honda marketed the Element to young adventurers, but those never bought them (one reason being young people don't buy a lot of new cars, and many don't go outside (except maybe the types who drive trucks or Jeeps?).  The people who bought them were older, often women, often dog or bicycle owners, often creative types like photographers--people who appreciated their boxy, rugged roominess and accessibility.  But Honda never marketed to those people, so people just didn't find out the Element might have been perfect for them except by chance or word of mouth.  It seemed to make some sense.

I was excited to see the new one coming out, and that it looks so similar to the old.  Would have been nice to have an electric option, but then again mine is still going like new at 150k miles so I'm not shopping yet.
I have 140K on mine and it's still like new. My roof rack started to rattle the other day, so I tightened it down. Aside from tires and brakes, that's the only repair I've ever needed to do. It's the best car for a tall person. I have about 4" of head clearance in mine. My head touches the headliner in my F250. Toyota anything, I'm tilting the seat back and my forehead is against the headliner. Haven't sat in a Tesla, but I would bet I'd have to tilt the seat back to sit in it. In my 20's I bought a BMW. First thing I did was take it to a body shop and have them cut the seat track and weld it to the floor. My head still just touched the headliner. I hated that car. Sold it after about 9 months. 61' convertible bug with a dual ported 1600 was one of my favorite cars I ever owned. Used to tie my windsurfing gear down to the convertible top locking hooks at the top of the windshield. Windsurf all day in San Pedro and cruise down the coast in the evening with the under-seat heater valve just cracked open. Perfect. 
Fun thing about trends, they're so obvious. I was on the freeway the other day and I passed two car hauler semi's. Both of them were loaded with the exact same truck. Toyota Tacoma's, 4wd, crew cabs, in that new flat grey color 8) Two guys I surf with at SanO and my Nephew have the exact same truck... same color ::)

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2019, 07:33:27 AM »
The article below talks about the potential unveiling of Tesla's upcoming truck.  They also mention and un(der)sung attribute of on site charging.  I thought it was cool that Rivian plans to include 3 outlets in their truck bed and a compressor.  That means that I will be able to inflate a wing in .01 second and beat Bill to the water (or more likely I will explode some perfectly good wings). 

Weíve long thought that pickup trucks are prime for electrification.  There are a lot of advantages to be had in a pickup truck format.  The design already has a large, flat area which would be perfect for batteries, high low-end torque and superior torque control from electric motors would be great for towing and offroading, and the ability to charge tools from the pickupís battery or to charge the truck from job site electricity hookups would both be convenient.

https://electrek.co/2019/09/07/tesla-pickup-will-most-likely-be-unveiled-in-november-says-elon-musk/

PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2019, 08:07:05 AM »
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.

In the long term, the reliability is superb. Hardly any moving parts. The only lubrication is generally in the gearbox, which is usually just a single reduction gear and the oil gets changed every 75,000 miles.

In the short term, other than the drive system, these are purely computers and software. So no, you can't fix them unless you get really smart on how the systems work, and they can glitch like any complex software. Tesla does automatic over-the-air updates and fixes, so the software issues get fixed quickly, but weird shit happens that you don't have control over except for the smartphone standby--reboot.

I'm a decent mechanic and reasonably experienced with electronics and embedded systems. I've been stuffing my head full of CANBus, OBDII, and alternative network protocols like MQQT to do the wiring for Fritz (my stupid MoHo project). The more I learn, the more I realize that modern vehicles--ICE or EV--are becoming or already are virtually impenetrable to amateur DIY. Just trying to understand the control codes and operation for a single vehicle would be a year-long project, and the manufacturers hold the information closely because the security of these systems suck out loud. Since Tesla has more of a Silicon Valley nature than a rust belt car manufacturer their approach to security is a lot more robust, which makes repairing or modifying any of the devices really difficult.

For example, these are the communications that take place to clear fault codes in the ABS ECU of some ford vehicles:
IDH: 07, IDL: 60, Len: 08, Data: 03 14 FF 00 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 7F 14 78 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 54 FF 00 00 00 00 00

ID0760 is the ABS ECU that the diagnostic tool is talking to. ID0768 is the response sent to the diagnostic tool reading the codes and resetting the stored fault. Each ECU has hundreds and sometimes thousands of communication codes it responds to. There are typically 70+ ECUs in a modern car, each with its own computer talking to all the other computers, using codes specific to the car and manufacturer. ICE's generally have a lot more ECUs than EVs because they have a lot more systems to control. EVs generally have a lot more powerful ECUs that do a lot more sophisticated stuff. Every Tesla since 2016, for example, has two redundant main computers powerful enough to process all the data from all the cameras, radar, sonar, and other navigation sensors simultaneously.

That's undoubtedly more than you wanted to know. I'm basically writing this stuff for myself because it helps me lock down things that are just floating around in my pointy head. By the way, your 2006 has plenty of stuff going on in it's slightly less sophisticated control systems that you have little hope of understanding.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 08:58:59 AM by PonoBill »
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surfcowboy

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2019, 12:35:12 AM »
Most folks canít wrench on the most important tech they own, their phone, yet they rely on it for their work and all other aspects of their lives. They also mostly just work.

When you can control the hardware and software things can be far more reliable.

We had to learn to wrench because the machines broke so much. In a few years thatís another thing that will be gone too.

How many folks do you know who can fix their phone at hardware level? Better yet, how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system? Even less. Itís all changing.

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2019, 05:03:27 AM »
how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system?

That is a real issue.  So much business software is now cloud based and closed/proprietary that not only can users not fix it, they cannot alter it and can lose the ability to even access it in times of interruption.  I am not sure that many people even realize how important AWS, Azure, Google Cloud have become to their way of life or their livelihoods. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 08:08:16 AM by Admin »

Tom

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2019, 06:39:25 AM »
Not only can't end users fix their phone,  I couldn't get my service provider to fix a small bug that prevented me from receiving pictures with texts.  I had to turn off wifi and reboot to get them.

PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2019, 07:00:02 AM »
Even if you know how to fix a lot of stuff, the deeper layers are tough to get to. It's actually been true for a very long time--centuries, actually. Every technically complex tool we use is built layer on layer. Who writes the microcode that the assembly layer sits on? Most programming effort is at a very high level of abstraction. The overwhelming majority of people couldn't fix a hammer, don't know how a zipper works and how to fix it, never mind how to make the teeth, clamp them onto fabric, make and add the slider, etc, etc.

I have a book called "Build your own machine shop" that details how to start with a stack of firebricks and sandcast your own stuff, then build a lathe and use that to build a milling machine. Great book, I read it for fun but I saved it in case I went completely nuts in my retirement and wanted to do something completely quixotic.

I might be there, my motorhome project is pretty nutty. And my reason for using MQQT instead of the cloud and building my own stuff instead of readily available automation products is to avoid being cloud-connected--the easiest way to do the project. Of course, I can connect MQQT to the cloud and be able to turn on the air conditioner in my Moho from my smartphone in Maui.

If you want to see what is actually feasible in the world, and how it works, look at the new Chinese Tesla gigafactory. It was a mudhole last year. It's nearly done and ready to make cars and batteries. Freaky.

I do fix my own phones and computers--sort of. That is, I can take them apart, buy components, and replace them. The iPad Diane dropped is at my shop with it's LCD screen and touch glass ripped off, waiting for delivery of the replacement. I have several microscopes and SMD rework stations so I can do micro soldering. It's probably less a matter of practicality than stubbornness. Plus I'm really hard on gear so I better be able to fix it. Or maybe I'm careless with it because I know I can fix it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 07:23:47 AM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dusk Patrol

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2019, 09:06:38 AM »
Iím coming around...
Bullet V2; RS 14x26; New Deal 9'6; BluePlanet 9'4

PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2019, 09:11:45 AM »
Drive one, preferably a model S, though the Model 3 is remarkable. Model X is just weird.

It's an eye-opener.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dusk Patrol

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2019, 01:05:39 PM »
Yep I've tipped over. Some milestones:
Jay Leno of all people stating there’s no reason not to have full electric.
My averaging $506 monthly on gas alone.
This thread… including mention of the apparently excellent build quality of Teslas.
An article extolling the driving experience of the Tesla 3 over the BMW 3. (grain of salt, but whatevs)

I do have an office mate with a Tesla S that I will drive. Interesting about her, her husband is a car guy who had been waiting for a special order BMW M2.  It arrived. She drove it to work one day, but much prefers her self driving Tesla over the Bimmer because the latter “requires so much attention be paid while driving”  : )  or maybe : (   … not sure which…. But it does illustrate one kind of consumer preference.   

But more fundamentally I’ve stopped even idly daydreaming about ICE cars… meaning no more “Oh I wonder what the Jag SUV handles like…” , instead, its “oh that’s right… it’s still gas…”
I saw a Shell gasoline TV commercial last night and just saw an anachronism.   Now I’m  just waiting I suppose, for a manly enough EV truck or SUV.  (You now, ‘cuz I’m so manly  : )  with AWD.  Till then I’ll drive my body on frame, V8 SUV Toyota product which probably has an infinite number of miles left in it.   
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 01:21:49 PM by Dusk Patrol »
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anonsurfer

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2019, 01:09:14 PM »
Drive one ....

It's an eye-opener.

I'm with PB.  At this time I think Tesla is the best EV option.   Nothing else comes close right now.   

1. 330 miles of range (LR RWD)
2. Super efficient (I avg 4.4 miles per kWh)
3. Low fuel cost ($2.00 per 100 miles)
4. Zero emissions
5. Very quick
6. Access to Supercharger network
7. Over the air updates

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Tic Tac 7' 0" x 22.75" x 3.5" x 70L

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