Author Topic: Axis Foils  (Read 218112 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #660 on: December 27, 2020, 08:25:11 AM »
Shimming the combined incidence angle down definitely will require more speed to take off. All these incidence decisions by manufacturers have to do with initial take off at the expense of performance. We don't have variable elevators like an airplane or a performance sailboat does, so manufacturers have to design so beginner/intermediate users can get the foil up and fly. With a wing or surfing, it all happens at low speed at first, so the decisions have to work for that.

Five degrees of incidence is a hell of a lot in water. It works fine with a monster low aspect wing like the 1020 to get up and fly as long as there is enough power to keep shoving it through the water in it's draggy, nose-up state. As anyone who has used these big wings knows, as soon as you get up you need to gain some speed and push the nose down, and maintain plenty of front foot pressure to keep from stalling or breaching. The wing is creating lots of excess lift that you need to counter, and lift=drag (sort of, but more lift always means more drag). So you shim everything flatter and things work better until speed increases enough so the excess lift from the wing (increasing as the square of the speed) makes weight control of the foil unstable and the drag equal to whatever force is being applied. The wing won't go faster and the tiniest weight transfer makes it leap around.

Airplanes don't control lift with the elevator (which is fundamentally equivalent to our stabilizer), all the elevator changes is the angle of attack of the wing (and it's used for turning in conjunction with the ailerons). They climb with the throttle. Apply more power and up you go. Changing the AOA increases lift temporarily, but it also radically increases drag and can ultimately lead to a stall unless a lot more power is applied.

Our gear is a big bag of compromises because we don't have any of these controls that can be varied while we're flying. I'm still amazed it works at all. As soon as you start going faster everything gets a lot harder to manage because just about every parameter increases as the square of the speed.

Tweaking these wings is going to be necessary as we progress because they aren't currently designed to progress with us--in fact, they can't be. Axis encourages shimming because I'm certain Adrian knows all this stuff as well as anyone. But don't mistake these changes we make to be improvements to the basic design. It's a necessary change because what WE want from the wings changes. In the early progression, we just want to get up and flying. Now we want more. The bag of compromises is still there, we're just shifting the contents around a bit.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Hdip

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #661 on: December 27, 2020, 10:41:29 AM »

A semi frustrated foiler still looking for the ultimate foil  ;D

I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too. Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.

Best foil I've ridden so far (prone surf only) is my AXIS 760 that my brother took from me. I want surf wings. I'm waiting to see what Lift comes out with next year. Guess I'll just have to be annoyed until then.

Califoilia

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #662 on: December 27, 2020, 12:15:45 PM »
I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too.
Yeah, I sometimes I try to blame it on my gear also; when in reality it's me the pilot that's just not able to get all there is out of his wings because of his skill level...or lack there of.  :-[

Not saying there's not someone out there who might have outgrown the available equipment...but that's sure not anyone that I've seen locally.

Quote
Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.
Not at all.

I've seen guys go back to whatever they were doing before (longboard, SUP...), not because the equipment couldn't keep up with them, but rather because it wasn't as easy as they thought, and they were no longer the "top dog" in the pack any longer.

But most of our "original guys" at SanO are still there; or still foiling elsewhere...or fit into the above sentence. It's the newer guys who we see come, and go...when it turns out foiling ain't as easy as it looked, or they thought it'd be. :D
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Hdip

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #663 on: December 27, 2020, 12:48:55 PM »
Oh I haven't outgrown the "available" equipment. I'm just annoyed at the $2k gear currently in my garage and am not about to spend $2k per setup on new gear because it's 10% better.

Alysum

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #664 on: December 27, 2020, 01:12:12 PM »
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Alysum

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #665 on: December 27, 2020, 02:04:48 PM »

A semi frustrated foiler still looking for the ultimate foil  ;D

I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too. Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.

Best foil I've ridden so far (prone surf only) is my AXIS 760 that my brother took from me. I want surf wings. I'm waiting to see what Lift comes out with next year. Guess I'll just have to be annoyed until then.
the requirements for prone and quite different to wing.
Give the unifoil hyper a try with the Carve tail. How loose it it with some glide and speed is probably what you're after.
Then there's the Armstrong koolaid  ;D

Hdip

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #666 on: December 27, 2020, 02:14:28 PM »
I'm on a signature albatross 175 at the moment. I have the twin tip (which I prefer so far) and the apex downcurved tail. The glide is good. It turns nicely, but it's not a "surf" wing. I also have the stealth 175 which is fine, but the glide isn't there so pumping for 2-1's is difficult.

I'm saving money and hoping to demo the new AXIS carbon mast and black series soon.

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #667 on: December 27, 2020, 02:28:44 PM »
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 02:41:29 PM by Admin »

Alysum

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #668 on: December 27, 2020, 04:04:17 PM »
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
negative they are not yet down under. Game changer?

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #669 on: December 28, 2020, 01:50:10 AM »
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
negative they are not yet down under. Game changer?

I can tell you my experience.  When I first attached the carbon mast last spring (my first one was the 76) I was still using the Axis the 1020 and 920 (Big, thick foils) with the larger tails.  These are Axis' highest drag combos.  When I put the carbon mast on there it made an immediate difference.  Those combos were noticeably less draggy.  At that time it felt super slick to me, but my frame of reference was low.  As the year progressed I tried many more combos, shedding more drag along the way.  It is definitely a nice piece of the puzzle there.

I switched to the 96 mid season and have always found the masts plenty stiff and I like the responsiveness.  I have ridden a few from other brands that were shockingly soft.  They would have this unexpected wobble or shudder that I found really unpleasant.  My nerves are shot and I can't respond to that stuff.  The Axis carbons provide a really consistent ride at my weight.

You are absolutely  correct about the weight.  There is only a subtle weight advantage over the aluminum masts.  I had thought there might be more.  Lighter is always nice and anything Axis can do to bring the weight down will be appreciated. 

So, I would summarize:  Drag yes, Feel yes, weight no.




Thatspec

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #670 on: December 28, 2020, 06:38:10 AM »
Oh I haven't outgrown the "available" equipment. I'm just annoyed at the $2k gear currently in my garage and am not about to spend $2k per setup on new gear because it's 10% better.

If we're defining performance as purely lift/drag, we're only seeing increases of less than 5% over last years gear and that number will continue to shrink. Improved technique has the potential for far greater gains (at least in my case).
Foiling NY guy tested the A 1050, I didn't see any real world improvement and he's still preferring the 1150.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSUflTBm3nk

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #671 on: December 28, 2020, 07:39:46 AM »
Itís going to be hard to improve on the 1150 for anything but turning, and that yields to technique. Even for surfing, if conditions are marginal I go for the 1150. At my current skill level and weight I wouldnít be able to foil in the conditions I often find if I didnít have one.

Damn that dude can pump. More that 100 pumps a minute?!  I havenít done a hundred pumps in all the time Iíve been foiling.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 08:20:08 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #672 on: December 28, 2020, 08:04:46 AM »
less than 5% over last years gear

Love the video.  He is always super interesting.  Where did the 5% come from?

daswusup

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #673 on: December 28, 2020, 08:10:11 AM »
Pono, I completely agree. I have a bunch of other wings to pick from that can do amazing things but non of them can get me up on foil and having a blast as often as the 1150. Session saver. How many times have you gone out on another wing and said "dammit, I would be shredding if I were on the 1150 right now?" I have been holding onto a 920 thinking this will be good for my kids to learn on next summer, but now I am convinced that the 1150 is a great learn to wingfoil wing. The huge glide and low stall speed give me ample time to figure out whats happening. I just watched Foiling NY review of the new HPS and he still favors the 1150. I have only had one session on my 980 and absolutely loved it but, spent a lot more time dealing with lulls and flailing to get it on foil. The bottom line is that many of us foil in less than perfect conditions and the 1150 smooths all of this out immensely. I don't have a ton of time to foil in a given week(3 kids) and I need for my gear to work when my window is open. Anyway, Axis 920 for sale.

flkiter

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #674 on: December 28, 2020, 08:43:11 AM »
I've been sup foiling the 1050 when there's a little wave action or big drops. It's faster than the 1150 and turns really tight with really nice push out of the turns so 180's on the faces of waves with no use of the paddle is easy. But when it gets super small and going to be a pump session or shore break rides, the 1150 can't be beat.
The 980/1050 were designed more towards wing'ing tho. On a marginal day that I know I'll be switching between a big wing and paddle, the 1150 is my go to. If I'm just going to wing then 1050/980 is all I bring with me. 4.5 ensis and 1050 is more than enough for 10 knots. Paired with one of DWF's new wing boards designed for the HPS wings.
Axis has several foils coming down the pipeline dedicated for each sport of foiling. Even jumping with the wing. They also have some really nice easier all around stuff that even the top riders are enjoying due to how easy they are.
I recommend trying the 1050/980 wing'ing. That's where those foils work the best. Also down wind racing for the 980.

 


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