2020 Vision

[PonoBill]

Hard to believe that politicians need marketers, you'd think with all their experience at lying that they'd be good at it. Democratic Socialism is probably the worst possible label. Well, maybe Nazi is a little worse, and of course that was actually the National Socialist German Worker's Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) which sounds like something Bernie and AOC would sign right up for, and hence my notion of Fascism as Socialism with an authoritarian twist.

Words matter, and it's simply stupid to buck that tide. The dumbest thing you can do in marketing is try to educate your audience or change their mind. If the democrats nominate someone who calls him(her)self a socialist they will lose. Flat out. Lose.

As far as the simplistic definitions go, I doubt that 10 percent of people, regardless of their education, intelligence or nationality would get all five right. Certainly very few people understand what "Liberal" means or realizes that the root idea of the word is liberty. And a fundamental tenet of Socialism is that the government owns the means of production. Living under a different system and calling it Socialism simply adds to the confusion. 

I'm constantly stunned by people using Norway as an example of anything applicable to a different country. A population of less than 6 million, about the same as the SF Bay Area, with racial attitudes that would embarass most US republicans.

[Admin]

Our party has also scripted itself into a sensitivity hole.  We destroy ourselves over the tiniest disruption while the other side sheds flagrant abuses.  Joe the hair sniffer?  Really?  Toss him in the pile with air groper Franken. 

[Bean]

[When AOC was asked in an interview if she wants to turn the US into a socialist country like Venezuela, she said no, like Norway, the happiest country in the world.

Certainly one of the most beautiful countries in the world, but I’m not so sure about the happiest, especially in the northern most parts of the country.

But, we can’t compare the US to a country like Norway which has a significantly lower economic drag.  It would be like a top Sumo attempting to run like a Kenyan in a marathon...     

[eastbound]

norway seems pretty happy to me, tho with the value of their oil, and that that value is not owned by a couple of billionaires, so the wealth is shared with the citizens, it seems a layup---------

but we will never be norway--but we certainly can learn from the norwegians on many matters---like education

really, tho, the funniest part of all this are the claims that AOC will turn the US into venezuala!! so moronic....

wait, inforwars said she's actually venezuelan--makes sense with a name like ocasio-cortez!! i smell a conspiracy here--where's alex jones when we need him??

[Tom]

Maybe she said Finland, I didn't Google first

(CNN) — Finland has a lot to celebrate.
Not only does it have a capital city bursting with gastronomic creativity, the spectacular Northern Lights and Santa Claus's year-round home (plus the reindeer support staff) in Lapland. It's also the happiest country in the world for the second year in a row, according to the latest World Happiness Report.
It's followed by Denmark, Norway, Iceland and The Netherlands.

Anyway, if AOC and Berrnie called themselves anything else, Fox would just say that anything was a code word for Socialist

[eastbound]

kiwi's are said to be a happy bunch--and NZ is said to be one of the environmentally cleanest countries in the world

in fact most of the top-listed countries on the happiness index are among the environmentally cleanest, least polluting countries in the world----and they all long ago accepted and implemented policy to deal with the knowledge that human caused global warming is acutely upon us

[Admin]

Anyway, if AOC and Berrnie called themselves anything else, Fox would just say that anything was a code word for Socialist

This is true.  They are not going to unring that bell.  Even so, it seems that we now need to hear everything through the AOC filter.  That is madness to me.  Her unfavorables are really high, dems included.  Why is this now a requirement?.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2611

[Area 10]

Denmark, which regularly tops the happiness charts, has an economic system that you guys would probably label as “socialist”: very high basic levels of taxation and a political system where trying to ensure that the gap between rich and poor does not get disruptively large is not considered an offence.

It doesn’t mean that their system would scale for the US, because they have a more homogeneous society. And it’s a small country. But it’s worth bearing in mind that what most people under 40 years old now call “socialism” doesn’t automatically lead to misery and disaster, as some here might like to claim.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia page for socialism contains the following:

“In 21st century America, the term socialism, without clear definition, has become a pejorative used by conservatives to taint liberal and progressive policies, proposals, and public figures”.

It also makes the point that there are many different varieties of socialism, with no single definition encapsulating them all. So PB’s definition of socialism
Is already long dead, I think. Maybe the prejudice is just old folks recounting the prejudices they learnt from the past, and the new political figures like AOC aren’t worried about the label because they know that the generation they are appealing to are more open-minded, and don’t have the older associations with the word that the wrinklies do. And the younger voters are more likely to have visited places like Denmark (or aspire to), and so are less ready to accept that e.g. having a really good national health service that is free for everyone is the devil’s work (especially when it’s a lot cheaper than the system you have). Old Trump voters are a lost cause for the new young democrats anyway, so why bother pandering to them? Maybe better to look to a bright new future run by younger folk, and one way to clearly distinguish yourself from the stereotype Trump voter is to use the word “socialist”, and see the steam pour out of their ears. In fact maybe it’s becoming code for “I appeal to the younger generation“, and that is why some Dems are comfortable using it.

[Admin]

My prejudice against the term is that I want us to win this next election and would prefer that we run a centrist Democrat and not tilt at windmills right now. 

[Area 10]

My prejudice against the term is that I want us to win this next election and would prefer that we run a centrist Democrat and not tilt at windmills right now.

I am entirely sympathetic to this view - indeed, I might easily have said almost these same words about the situation in the UK right now.

[spirit4earth]

As much as I would love a far-left (socialist, if you will) government, I agree that we have to run someone who will beat trump.  An earthquake gives notice before it fully lets go, the sky gives notice before a tornado.  We have been given notice.  Trump and his minions want to dismantle everything that is helpful and supportive of people who are “less fortunate” (grrr); they want to cut aide to Central America, which will only make life worse for its citizens, thereby increasing the need/desire to emigrate; they want to destroy ocean mammals, and possibly the sea itself, by allowing offshore drilling off the east coast; they want to drill in pristine arctic habitats.  Etc etc etc.
When the SHTF, no one will be able to say “I didn’t see this coming”.
I want trump and pence and Graham and McConnell, et al, OUT!  GONE!  I don’t care how it happens.

[Area 10]

So, Trump cheats widely at golf. There’s a surprise...

https://news.sky.com/story/new-book-claims-trump-cheats-at-the-highest-level-on-the-golf-course-11681097

If he cheats at golf he’ll be cheating his taxes too. We need to see his tax returns. Tax returns are the litmus test for honesty.

[spirit4earth]

So, Trump cheats widely at golf. There’s a surprise...

https://news.sky.com/story/new-book-claims-trump-cheats-at-the-highest-level-on-the-golf-course-11681097

If he cheats at golf he’ll be cheating his taxes too. We need to see his tax returns. Tax returns are the litmus test for honesty.

I doubt we’ll ever see them.  He’s obviously hiding something. 

[PonoBill]

Appealing to the younger generation might have some effect if they actually voted. Never more than 50 percent, and generally less than 40 percent vote. So how they interpret socialism doesn't actually mean much--even assuming that some theoretical straw man notion of the term existed. The hard data says it doesn't, people simply assume it means something between far left and communist, but what is data compared to arm waving. At least you said "maybe" A10, though the polls say no fucking way. 18 percent of Americans across all voting ages and political affiliations respond positively to the term Socialist and 50 percent respond negatively. At the same time 55 percent of Americans say the government should do more to help them. It doesn't take much analysis to see that democrats need to convince Americans that they won't push the country towards a "socialist state" but they will do more to help them.

It shouldn't be any surprise that millennial don't vote, since they don't in the UK either, though they did turn out in unprecedented numbers for the EU vote, and of course that worked out well.

[Bean]

If he cheats at golf he’ll be cheating his taxes too. We need to see his tax returns. Tax returns are the litmus test for honesty.

That's potentially insulting to many golfers A-10.  I have dealt with plenty of clients that were conviceted tax-cheats but would never dream of cheating in golf...