Sharing Strategies from other Sports

[Bean]

 

[PonoBill]

Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?


Lots of people knew a long time ago that a deep standing position is extremely effective. The geometry is better. I'm surprised the shapes have gone towards canoes. Footwell boards are bitches to drain, but it can be solved. They're a lot easier to get back up on and don't get blown around. When the palette is as limited as current rules dictate designers have limited choices. If one manufacturer does it, everyone else has to follow suit or wind up in the mid-pack.

[ukgm]

Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?

If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.

[ukgm]

MY VIEWS on #7

More accessible:
1) Because SUP boards can be lighter when made from a Mold.
2) Because SUP boards with a very low standing area would be more stable.
3) Because a rudder would invite more people to the sport, and make them feel more “in control” of their boards from the moment they stand up and paddle.

More affordable:
4) Because SUP boards made from a Mold will be cheaper. More complex Surfskis from Mold start at about 2500 euros, so we’ll be able to see SUP from a Mold start at about 1900 euros quite SOON – and there’s no doubt in my mind. 1900 euros is a far stretch from the current 3500 euros for a board filled with Styrofoam.
5) Because a board made from a Mold will last longer – much longer – thus will be considered more affordable when spread over the years.

More versatile:
6) Because of its rudder system. Many people do not paddle when it’s a bit windy, but a rudder will make them want to get out more often on the water.
7) Because I am certain that only a single board can be used for flat or downwing – just like in the World of surfskis. We just have to think outside the box.

3) That's not true. I've never heard a single paddler complain about steering being their issue. The only branch of the sport that would require it is ocean paddling and that is a small margin of the current overall market.

@UKGM
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?

I think you are philosophically trying to crack a walnut with a sledgehammer when you consider the most common types of paddling i.e. inland or on calmer waters.

[Bean]

Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?

If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.

That's a great point, rules ruined F1...

[PonoBill]

Ooooh, all the way to 14's. This stuff is playing out in such a predictable manner. The only surprise for me is that it's holding together about ten times longer than I expected. No rules sounds best to me. The SUPAA rules were so deep into nitpicking there was just no way anyone would keep paying attention. Yes, Olympic rules are endlessly more bureaucratic. So what?

If you want a fair and robust sport for all stakeholders, you need constitutive rules for a competitive sport. Saying no rules is just ridiculous. Even F1 motorsport eventually realised this.

What? Stakeholders? What stakeholders. Navigate to Google Trends. Enter any flavor of the term "stand up paddle racing" and set the scope to worldwide. There won't be enough data to show a trend. Then pick something with a deeper fan base, like pig racing.

[pdxmike]

One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading.  Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing  scene over the last umptten years. 

My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors.  No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.

To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.

AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)

SUPAA was an advisory organisation led by Chase. I was one of his advisors. We did that to try and stop what we knew was coming (to protect the racing sport as a whole) but Starboard brought out the 21.5 anyway.

Small world.  While SUPAA was coming out with its board restrictions, I was talking to Svein from Starboard and Robby Naish telling them not to cave into complying with SUPAA's board restrictions.

[pdxmike]

Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?

There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind.  People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver.  Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.

[Area 10]

Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?

There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind.  People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver.  Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.

A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.

Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.

But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.

[photofr]

The focus shouldn't be:
- Racing
- Touring (for somewhat experienced paddlers)
- Cruising about (for beginners)
- Rentals (for absolute beginners)
- Teaching SUP
- etc...

Some of you are describing problems associated with dugout boards and rudders based on Rentals (and absolute beginners). I wouldn't rent anything with a rudder to an absolute beginner. That's where inflatables and direct supervision should come in.

Perhaps another subject all together, because we are not doing enough for absolute beginners - in my opinion.

Clearly, we could all afford to be a little more open minded. Tunnel vision would have someone say that all sports cars shouldn't exist, because so many people couldn't get into them, or that tennis shoes shouldn't exist either, because we can easily prove that so many people cannot reach and tie their shoes.

[photofr]

Yes, there will be limitations with everything - but let's take one thing at a time. Let's take DUGOUT

IMPORTANT NOTE
Just because dugout boards have traumatised a few doesn't mean they cannot be modified in the future to better suit the needs of more riders.

DUGOUT BOARDS SIDEWALLS
Look at the image below:
It’s a dugout board, but…
-   Does it look difficult to climb back onboard?
-   Does it look like its bow will catch wind more than your board?
-   Does it look like its sidewalls will catch side chop like mad?






DUGOUT BOARD MILD DOWNWIND ABILITIES
Yes, this is the same board as the first image.
Look closely at the mild downwind conditions though.
A dugout board doesn’t have to suck at downwind, even small DW.





DUGOUT BOARD DOWNWIND ABILITIES
Does it really look this guy isn’t enjoying his DW?
He’s on a dugout board, all the same.
Heck, he's even able to walk all over that board.





DUGOUT BOARD SURFING ABILITIES
Are you really sitting there, with a straight face when you are insinuating that surfing isn’t possible with a dugout board?
Shot of a rider on a dugout board, SB Sprint.
Do you really think that his feet remained planted in the exact same spot?

[ukgm]

One thing is for certain, interest in SUP racing is fading.  Reminds me of the decaying XC MTB racing  scene over the last umptten years. 

My guess is that, just as with mountain bikes, SUP's will be available in more different and specific flavors.  No great prediction, since they already are to a great extent.

To predict the direction of race boards is nearly impossible because we would first have to predict the direction of racing rules.

AND... rules change.
Am I the only one who noticed that a set of rules once read, not too long ago:
- Minimum width for all 14' board will be 23"
(or am I completely mistaking?)

SUPAA was an advisory organisation led by Chase. I was one of his advisors. We did that to try and stop what we knew was coming (to protect the racing sport as a whole) but Starboard brought out the 21.5 anyway.

Small world.  While SUPAA was coming out with its board restrictions, I was talking to Svein from Starboard and Robby Naish telling them not to cave into complying with SUPAA's board restrictions.

It's funny how small a world it is isn't it !!  The SUPAA rules were only ever advisory. Some people supported them, some didn't. I knew at the time that its wasn't in the individuals or the brands interest to support it.

However, (as Jim Terrell and I wrote) the move to sub 23 inch width boards is an intent that further upskills the sport and deters the thicker end of the wedge that is supporting the racing in the main. The decision made by starboard to ignore it was the beginning of the end of any further development of mass participation in racing and in the end, this will cost them. I've seen it in too many sports.

[Area 10]

ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level?

Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...

This is not to say that the “Jim Terrell” prediction is wrong - I believe that we are almost there, really, with so many of the top paddlers on narrow dugouts that do not appeal at all to general public, and won’t look anything remotely like a beginner would buy as their first board. But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts. Or perhaps if board regulations change, they will all like look like C1 canoeists. Either way it will exclude 99.9% of the population from being competitive. Unlike soccer, for instance, where the two best players in the work (Ronaldo and Messi) are of wildly different builds, weights, and statures. THAT is what a popular, inclusive sport with a future looks like... a person who plays soccer can dream that no matter what your natural body shape, you could potentially compete at the highest level.

Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls. Maybe that’s the way it is supposed to go. The sport was invented by heavy old geezers, basically. (Look at who was winning the first Battle of the Paddle or Maliko/M2O races etc.) But the kids were always going to take it over. So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda. The writing is on the wall for it as a mass participation race sport anyway. Which is not to say that there can’t be mass participation *events* (ie. where most people are just doing it for fun rather than with any intention of being seriously competitive). There can and will be.

Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends. Messi and Ronaldo casually competing together, if they want to. Or just cruising along if they’d rather do that.

[photofr]

Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends.

Don't be a DOUCHE.

Think again!
I have a great time every time I go and paddle.
I spend more time offshore - 10 kilometres or more off coastal waters.
The same board used offshore (downwind, side wind, upwind) was later used to take photos in a pond or in Open Water.

What a douche - assuming crap about me is really manly of you.

[Area 10]

Im not sure what your point was there, photofr, but let me say this: Your weight is not a small thing here, photofr- it is determining a lot of what you (and others) are saying here, and the choices of boards.

You weigh the same as my (slim, athletic) son did aged 14. What he could balance on at that age is extraordinary. A 14x21.5 board would be like a boat to him.

At the other end of the scale is ukgm, who is similarly fit and is a superb and gifted athlete with a training ethic second to none. But he can’t realistically race at the highest levels because the regulations prevent him from using the most appropriate board for him.

How is this relevant to the issue of dugouts? It is because falling during a race if you are in a dugout can spell the end of your race. But if you fall when using a flat deck board you can be up and going almost before the board has slowed down. So, the issue of being able to balance on narrow boards gets even more emphasis if the boards are all dugouts. Because of your weight, and the fact that most boards are made with a much heavier person in mind, you probably haven’t been really confronted with this issue yet. It is the great advantage of being the size you are.
But the rest of us have, in some cases very starkly.

Your weight, and power-to-weight ratio probably means that you could indeed compete alongside a bunch of the talented teenage youngsters who are flooding into the sport, and use the same equipment as them, whereas bigger folk could not. Good for you. For the rest of us it would just be a side show from which we are practically excluded. And the worst possible craft for us would be a super-tippy dugout. I’ve still got marks on my ankles from clambering back into my Ace when out paddling it in F6 winds. The guy I bought the board from had the same experience and then immediately sold the board to me. His wife said he didn’t look safe out there on it. She was right. He bought a flat deck board and was fine.

Btw, I wouldn’t call some of the boards you’ve shown above “dugouts”. They just have a fairly mildly sunken deck, which is not the same thing.