Still sucking at downwinding + fin question

[FloridaWindSUP]

I struggled in the Gulf of Mexico yesterday, in 10-15 mph wind and yucky chop leftover from days of stormy weather.

First did an upwind intervals workout to get upwind, then a downwinder back to shore. Had demoralizing falls that reminded me of my frustrating performance at the Key West classic. Average downwind speed slower than what I would do on flatwater in neutral conditions. I want to blame some combination of poorly organized bumps, fading wind, my fatigue and grumpy self-critical attitude, and gear difficulties. Not sure which of those factors was most significant.

Used 14x23 Riviera with 6"keel fin with a wide base that fills the whole finbox. (Can somebody explain why the wide base fins are not recommended for downwinding and surf? How does a wide base screw things up?) I do OK downwinding this board in baby bumps < knee high but in mixed height bumps with some > knee high I get owned. I just ordered this narrower base fin and I'm hoping it will help. http://store.finsunlimited.com/73quot-seagrass-s73.html

[PonoBill]

You are getting pushed from behind during a downwinder (and in surf). A wide base fin (low aspect ratio) exacerbates the push and makes the intensity and direction more random since the alignment of the fin to the force is highly variable. In other words, it shoves the tail around and makes you fall.

Narrow boards are a bitch in downwinding anyway, and the roll you get on a downwinder is sudden and often includes yaw. The Bullet 17 V1 is infamous for a headshake roll in small swells that has people falling off the board feet first--easily identified by their copiously bleeding shins.

It takes time in the water to get used to a narrow board downwind. I have fun with my 12'2" X 25.5, which for me is microscopic, but I paid a lot of dues to get comfortable on that board in a downwinder. Add three more inches and I could have a picnic on it. In fact, the 11'11" SIC does exactly that, it's just as fast as my 12'2", and I chopped it up to test the Geezer Foil, which demonstrates to me that stability is not related to board loyalty and preference.

[headmount]

10-15 mph usually just equals slop if the fetch is from a open source, like the Gulf of Mexico.  We have a run off south Maui where the launch is the fetch source so 10-15 is as clean as 10-15 gets anywhere.  We'll do that wind speed there but on the N side from Maliko, that WS would usually be pretty sloppy.  20 is usually what most of us think of as a legit start point for downwinding wind speed. 

Direction is also important.  Straight onshore is the worst for slop.  Tangent to the coast is best and usually wind speeds accelerate as they brush parallel to the shore.  So look for those situations.

Your average speed is going to be slower than flat in sloppy water.  Even here on very windy days we have conditions that can be crossed up from various factors that will result in a slower average than a day not crossed up.  When you experience good conditions, you'll see your speed increase.

So you just need to find a better spot than the onshore spot you went to.  Watch the weather for those times when the coastline of your choosing has winds tangent to the shore.

[Badger]

I think part of your problem might be the width of your board. I can't imagine trying to downwind on a 23 inch board.

[headmount]

I think part of your problem might be the width of your board. I can't imagine trying to downwind on a 23 inch board.

Yeah and then there's that.

[Eagle]

It seems he is practicing on his RP23 so that in a race it will work better for him.  Last race in rough conditions he used that board and fell off a lot.  If so -> just keep on with that but try a SIC 7.0 fin. 

Weird thing for me is when it is flat in the ocean with little wind -> mixed waves and rolling slop come from multiple directions hit you everywhere.  The AS23 becomes tippy and requires max concentration.  It is never consistent easy flat like a lake.  Always left-over rolling swell and power boat wakes and current. This makes constant paddle stroke adjustments mandatory.  Every stroke!

From 5-10 kts it is perfect as wave action becomes more consistent and organized.  The 23 is then in its element.  At 10-15 kts it becomes a challenge again DW.  Upwind is the easy part.  Turning and heading DW becomes a challenge as the rolling cutting boof -> rolls.  So you stand back a touch and the tail stalls.  Makes that board have an extremely narrow power band.  Not that much fun but more of a challenge to stay dry.  The essential reason we bought that board.  Balance board.  But makes you really appreciate how skilled the pros are on these things.

For fins -> first try a big stable tracking fin and get used to the stall angle.  Then go smaller and smaller.  We pretty much leave the small SIC 7.0 on that board now.  Primarily because we do just those upwind DW sprint runs with that thing.  So makes it tippier to balance on yes -> but at least turns when you want down swells instead of stalling.  Basically DW with a board like the AS23 sucks.  That is why a surf nosed board like a M24 has appeal.  Should be a lot easier to handle DW.  Def the AS24.5 is easy to handle DW comparatively.  1-1/2" makes a massive difference in stability dropping down waves.  But good on you.  You will get better fast.  Just keep at it.

[PonoBill]

I've been doing this stuff a long time, and yet I'm always surprised when I do an upwind/downwind how challenging it is to stay on the board right after I turn downwind.

I had a weird experience in Maui a year or so ago. I have an actual Ku Nalu--I got Mark to dust off that old mold and make me one, hollow carbon. Very lightweight, very pretty, very challenging to stand on. I happened to have it on the car when a southside DW suddenly looked good, so I got Diane to shuttle me. The previous few days I had done SS downwinders on my Bullet 17 and fell a lot--my knee was giving me fits. I did a run from Kealia to Sorrentos on that dinky, unstable board, and ended dry. I think when you have to pay constant attention to balance you can sometimes do better. I suspect if Florida keeps attacking with that 23" that the lights will come on.

But yeah, get a dolphin fin.

[Chilly]

I don’t think it’s the wide base. Rather the low depth of your keel fin that is probably causing part of the problem. A couple of my friends have switched over to Black Project Maliko fin and they really like it for both racing and downwind.

[Luc Benac]

I don’t think it’s the wide base. Rather the low depth of your keel fin that is probably causing part of the problem.

Or a combination of both. Low depth when board stalls and somewhat gets lifted by the chop, wide based as described by Bill.

[robcasey]

Get a more stable board. 23" is great for calmish conditions and/or flat water race but in DW you're pushing your luck with balance. A wider board you can forget about balance and focus on downwinding. 

Given I'm tall, but I use the 29" Imagine 14' Connector and rip on DW's often passing those on skimpier boards who are falling in every few hundred feet, or more.  Still fast enough to do well upwind (usually get low).

And how are your bracing skills? You use the sweeping brace when surfing down a wave (hydroplaning a flat blade at your side like an outrigger); staying low when you get tippy (not raising blade above head or trying to balance like on a tight rope). When in doubt - paddle, short cadence.   

[FloridaWindSUP]

Turning and heading DW becomes a challenge as the rolling cutting boof -> rolls.  So you stand back a touch and the tail stalls.  Makes that board have an extremely narrow power band.

That "narrow power band" thing is definitely a struggle I can relate to: where there's little leeway between stalling and pearling and you have to very actively dance around the board to stay in the shifting sweet spot. It's tricky on such a narrow board, and makes it hard for me to keep the paddle power going strong.

The 14x23 Riviera RP actually has a better than average power band in smaller or less steep chop, though, where the nose design easily recovers from light pearling and allows me to stay relatively forward on the board doing touch&go gliding/cutting. But in steeper stuff is when the power bands narrows a lot. Something I like about my huge 14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon is how wide and forgiving the power band is. I can catch a wave from wherever I happen to be standing on it, and take my time figuring out the optimum position to get in to prolong the glide. I have limited experience on other board brands in downwinding conditions, but in some testing the other day I felt like the 14x24.5 AllStar had a little wider power band in downwinding than the 14x23 RP, and the 14x24 404 v3 had an even narrower band. I want to test the 14x23 Allstar vs. the 14x23 RP in downwinding next.

[Eagle]

Yep spot on FWS.  For playing around in big slop I just use my Bullet with the FCS Touring fin as it provides a touch more hold but still turns when I want.  Super fun slamming in the bumps and easy to stay dry.  Kinda reminds me of skiing down a bump run.  Great for improving my balance year round.

For sure the AS24.5 has a wider power band but still has a bit of roll with the new chamfered edges and cutting boof.  I use my AS23 2016 version all the time when wave conditions are more easier consistent.  Allows me to stay out for as long as I want.  Otherwise I have to cut it short and come back in after about a mile upwind.  Just gets too crazy for me.  When you get to my age you will understand.  I know when enough is enough.

But do enjoy the challenge of the AS23 in a sadistic way.  Forces me way out of my comfort zone and really benefits my developing skill set.  When I hopped on the 21.5 Sprint the other day for the first time -> it was no probs because of all the crap conditions I have been taking the AS23 out in the past few months.  Made the transition like zero.  The dropped standing position did def help tho and conditions were flat in a well protected bay.

You are doing the right thing taking your RP23 out in rough conditions as you will get better fast and stay a lot drier in your races.  Your CNS and proprioception should or will adapt.