Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 170890 times)

burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #840 on: March 11, 2019, 05:30:44 PM »
But maybe Nelo will bring out a proper downwind board - now that really would get my attention :) :)

And more importantly, your money ;D Mine too.
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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #841 on: March 11, 2019, 06:18:58 PM »
Luc - Yes, well, that was rather my point. I very often do upwind/downwind paddles when it’s 15-22 knots and little bumps, kinda knee-high. It’s probably what I do more often than anything else, really. 5.7-6.5 mph is somewhere around what I often average in the lighter of those wind conditions. In the conditions in the video even a fat old dummy like me can average comfortably over 11kph. I’d say the guy was being held back by that board in those conditions. But as I also said, it would have been bringing a knife to a gun fight. It’s surely really only an all-conditions board if the only conditions you ever paddle run from calm to mildly interesting? But that’s ok, many of the other brands have got decent DW boards these days, even if the constructions do let them down.

I wonder how he’d have got on on a Maliko (never mind a 17-4 Bullet) in those conditions. Or the UL Sunova, or the NSP UL. 5.7mph? Hmm...

Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #842 on: March 11, 2019, 06:47:37 PM »
Right, sorry, we are agreeing with each other :-)
So yes the board can be down-winded by a very good paddler as proven by the 9 km/h average and the 23 km/h top speed but based on what we see of the conditions in the video, the same paddler on a better suited board would have been flying and scored a higher average speed, consistently going more aggressively after those juicy bumps and better supported in that by the board capability.
So to the subject of the discussion, if it was just based on its down-winding ability I am personally extremely unlikely to purchase the board, and would keep my Maliko.
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burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #843 on: March 11, 2019, 09:09:07 PM »
Right, sorry, we are agreeing with each other :-)
So yes the board can be down-winded by a very good paddler as proven by the 9 km/h average and the 23 km/h top speed but based on what we see of the conditions in the video, the same paddler on a better suited board would have been flying and scored a higher average speed, consistently going more aggressively after those juicy bumps and better supported in that by the board capability.
So to the subject of the discussion, if it was just based on its down-winding ability I am personally extremely unlikely to purchase the board, and would keep my Maliko.

Luc, the 9km/h actually proven the opposite. To be considered down winding you need some surf to happen. If that was the case, average speed was much higher in these conditions.
What more likely happened is him paddling hard to get into bumps only to miss them time after time because the board can't take-off which is kind of what you see in the video.

The real marvel is that he can actually paddle hard on this board in these conditions.
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photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #844 on: March 11, 2019, 09:29:39 PM »
Disclaimer:
I have not seen the original video - but I would love to.

I am a bit surprised though. A few days ago, many of you were automatically assuming that the Signature 2.0 was a flat water board, designed (supposedly) for inland paddling like super calm lakes and such. Claims (by people who haven't tried the board) went on about how it was really only aimed at inland paddlers. Then you see the same board on a hefty Downwind and jumped ship… but you still haven’t seen the board in real life, let alone paddled a Signature 2.0 (14x23).

You should know that:
1. The 2.0 (14x23) has more of a rounded hull than the Sprint 14x23 – that helps with speed.
2. The 2.0 (14x23) has more rocker than the Sprint 14x23 – that helps with making it more versatile, in a variety of conditions.
3. The 2.0 (14x23) is way lighter than the Sprint 14x23 – that helps with super fast starts, sprint races, and makes catching smaller bumps that much easier.
4. The 2.0 (14x23) has many attributes, but isn’t a DW specific board by any stretch of the imagination – even if it can handle way bigger Ocean conditions than the Sprint 14x23. 

** RECAP ** WHAT IS THE SIGNATURE AIMED AT
To simplify, here's how I would rate the Signature 2.0 (14x23) in a hurry:
Flat water: 9/10 (higher if it had less rocker)
Sprints: 9.9/10 (it's just a blast)
General Ocean Paddling: 9.5/10 (because it's got just the right amount of rocker to make it really fun)
Upwind: 9/10
Small downwind: 8/10
Messy conditions: 7.5/10 (higher score if the paddler is more competent than I)
Bigger downwind: doable, but not necessarily aimed at bigger conditions.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #845 on: March 11, 2019, 09:52:31 PM »
Luc, the 9km/h actually proven the opposite. To be considered down winding you need some surf to happen. If that was the case, average speed was much higher in these conditions.
What more likely happened is him paddling hard to get into bumps only to miss them time after time because the board can't take-off which is kind of what you see in the video.

The real marvel is that he can actually paddle hard on this board in these conditions.

Then he is a really strong paddler. Missing bumps would usually slow you down under or around 7 km/h if the wind is not too strong (like a system shutting down for exemple) but the bumps are still sizeable but without much push. If the wind is really strong it can usually still push you enough over that speed a bit even if you are not really taking most of the bumps and getting slow down by the ones you cannot really take. In the FB video he is taking bumps, contrary to the YouTube video, so the truth is probably in between. He was able to take advantage of some bumps but not most but was also able to maintain a reasonable speed by paddling alone...maybe....it is difficult really to be certain with two videos of less than a minute....It would be great to hear a comparison directly from the horse's mouth.

Not sure if you guys are able to see the FB video, it looks a lot better than the YouTube video.
https://www.facebook.com/zoltandoterdelyi/videos/vb.1360763355/10214661477994871/?type=2&theater&comment_id=10214666245314051&notif_t=comment_mention&notif_id=1552318802191654
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 10:32:01 PM by Luc Benac »
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Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #846 on: March 11, 2019, 10:19:35 PM »
Ludovic, I am French too but I still have some trouble sometime following your logic :-) Sorry.
Nobody has been "jumping ship" to say that the board was now a good downwind board. Almost everything can be down-winded by a really good paddler, if painfully so sometime. From my part, I have not seen anything in the two videos or in the promotional video that would make me want to get that boards for my use. Granted the videos are quite short.

I think that we have reached a status quo in the discussion:
You love that board for any use possible and support the brand and as soon as you have sold your current board you will purchase another similar one that you will love even more. Great, that is one happy repeat customer and I am sure that the brand could use more and there is nothing nicer than finding a board that fit you like a comfortable shoe.
mr proper had one and sold it for a totally different board.
Burchas does not like the board period :-)
UGKM might like the board with a few adjustment in size for flat water racing
Area10 might like the construction of the board if applied to a down-wind specific design
I would not buy these boards even if I had the money for it as they just do not fit what I like based on what I have vicariously seen. In addition to be totally frank, I find the line and aesthetic of the boards not at all to my taste and somewhat I like my boards to look pleasing to my eyes. But that is just a personal taste not a statement of fact.

The jury is still out whether these boards are or are not suitable for normal paddlers as an all-water board and it does not look like a meeting of the mind will be reached within the few of us in this thread. From my part, I can safely say that the Naish Maliko is a true all-water or all-purpose board for people around my weight and skill level with really minimum compromise outside of weight. I believe that Ludovic feels the same for both the board you are selling and the board you demoed too (if I remember correctly). So horse for the course and we can each recommend a different board using the usual caveat emptor of our general use, own weight and skill levels.

At the end of eth day everybody is happy and everybody is paddling (different boards) :-)


« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 10:29:28 PM by Luc Benac »
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Viento 520

photofr

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #847 on: March 12, 2019, 12:12:52 AM »
Indeed, expressing disagreements isn’t always easy, but unfounded claims can be upsetting.
Here’s somewhat of a logical deduction: Maybe I am just tired of people claiming things that they know nothing about.

There are 100’s of people reading this thread, and so I can’t just sit back and let 7 individuals make unsounded claims like:
1) ”the Signature 2.0 is a flat water board, designed for inland paddlers.” It was even mentioned that it wouldn’t do well as an all around board in the Ocean.
2) “I know how to spot a tippy board when I see one” – without ever seeing one in this case. 
3) “I believe that round boards cannot DW well, or surf well” – but then has the poster even looked at NSP boards, Molokai Channel crossings, Travis, or simply the sport of surfskis?

All 3 statements above are unfounded, and do not represent the Signature 2.0

The latest, people pointing out how the Signature 2.0 can't handle hefty conditions with ease.

Do you not see how ridiculous this is, and the irony of it all?????
It's black: no, it's white.
It's a fast board: no, it's too tippy (look at the video).
it can surf: no, it can't (I have never tried one, but I know that it cannot possibly surf).
It's versatile: no, it can't handle 20-foot swells (look at the average speed).
It's super light: no, it will sink.


Remember: Seemingly, there are only 10 people commenting here.
1 of the 10 has publically admitted that he wasn’t ready for his purchase.
2 others have tried the board (including myself).
That leaves about 7 people who have made so many claims about the Nelo Signature, without so much as seeing one.





Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #848 on: March 12, 2019, 12:20:15 AM »
Nighter Luc nor A10 seemed too impressed, they were just nice about it, so I'm not sure it's just me.

Well to be honest, I'm not sure what board everyone is judging it against. The comparisons up to this point would seem to be apples to oranges. Personally, I'd test the signature against a starboard sprint or mistral vortex and the GT against an allstar. They are fair comparisons. If you're going to compare to something like an Ace for example, that's out of its intended scope and its no wonder you're not happy. Both Luc and A10 are experienced offshore paddlers and like getting out there is some decent size swell. This board can in skilled hands but isn't really meant for that. The GT may well suit them better..... if its made a little wider.

I probably should clarify some things at this point:

- I offered links of videos showing the signature going downwind as a means of illustrating that the balance likely isn't the complete nightmare that several paddlers say it is (having never paddled it). I did not wish to suggest the board is downwind raceable - it isn't and it isn't intended that way.

- I think its fair to say that the number of paddlers who have actually paddled it (and therefore have any credibility to comment on it) number only a couple here. The number of videos of the board in action number very few too. I personally wouldn't go making any conclusions based on either of these facts no matter how many people read this thread.

- Reading the advert for the Signature it says: "designed for experience paddlers", "canoe style convex hull design". That tells you that the board may well be beyond your skill level when compared to equivalently sized boards. It doesn't say it may be too much for you though. But you have to try. In about 3 weeks time, I'll be the only person in my country to have tried both boards in their range and I'll let you know what I think. I suspect one I'd buy the other I wouldn't.

- Finally, (and I want to add this to clarify my own position), I have no affiliations to the brand or the boards. I'm not on their team. I'm supportive of the boards as I understand what they are trying to do - even if much of their current range is likely beyond my skill ability.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 01:22:27 AM by ukgm »

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #849 on: March 12, 2019, 01:52:15 AM »
That sounds like a sensible summary to me, ukgm, and I doubt anyone here is really disagreeing with you. Well, maybe one would find something to argue with.

photofr - this thread has ranged far and wide in its topics, since the Nelo board is a new(ish) development so it has sparked a wider discussion of where Racing is going, that has its history long before Jim Terrell summed up his fears several years ago. This board is a convenient example of a “tipping point” in the sport for most keen paddlers. So it’s important to separate our comments specifically related to this board, and those that are aimed more generally at the direction the sport is taking. Some of us worry that SUP racing is going to become (indeed, perhaps already has) a highly elitist activity only suitable for a tiny minority of people. This is painful when actually SUP over the last 12 years has brought huge numbers of people into paddlesports, and indeed, any sporting activity.

This is not Nelo’s doing. It’s just that this board, it’s expense, it’s unapologetically elitist marketing strategy etc is emblematic of wider changes within the SUP cultural landscape. So, it is going to attract observations rating to that, especially from the early adopters who took up SUP more than a decade ago and now find themselves “re-skilled” out of the sport (as ukgm put it). We will be asking questions such as “so what - is this just another crazy-expensive elite board suitable for only a dozen people in the whole world?”. These questions have also been asked of many other boards over the last 12 years or so. So try not to get defensive. It’s much better that we are discussing the board rather than ignoring it, and it is hardly our fault if we haven’t had a chance to try it. I’d try it tomorrow if I was given the chance. But I won’t be. Whereas I can just go locally to a retailer and immediately try boards by eg. SIC, Fanatic, Starboard etc. And I’ll be able to use them and afford them.

The other aspect is that we are questioning whether this board will suit our purposes, and what we want out of SUP. We are not elite paddlers, although we are competent relative to our peers. It seems likely that the answer is “no”, it’s not for us. And there is a bit of disappointment there because we would all like to have a really well-made board.

These are reasonable questions and discussions, and you can’t go flying off the handle just because everyone doesn’t see it your way. We all want different things from SUP.

And I can tell you now with a high degree of confidence that if you gathered up 100 random SUPers and put them on this board and asked them for their impressions, the overall summary is going to be: tippy, fast, light, expensive. If you want to argue that that wouldn’t happen then I think you are swimming against the tide, and will just wind everyone up. But there will always be a (small) market for tippy, fast, expensive, light boards, so that’s fine. It is what it is.







burchas

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #850 on: March 12, 2019, 06:11:53 AM »
It appears that this thread is more hectic than the standard news cycle. People are selectively commenting on others without reading through their entire comments or plainly ignoring parts of them.

ukgm, I think it was clear I agreed with most of your findings throughout the thread and to some degree with photofr as well, on several cases. All I'm arguing is impression and perception created
by the thread and by saying that I'm mostly referring to the Signature and not the GT since this is where the thread started. As mentioned before, I believe that if the GT was first to market, we would
be having a different discussion now.

The other part of the problem is the lack of video content supporting your findings. Between a bonafide photographer and a board reviewer we haven't seen a single clip showing the board in action,
providing a compelling summary to your findings. That leaves us with 2 guys who are as far as can be from the spectrum of the average guy and that sad little video light-sup posted showing some guys
wobbling about on lake water. I can guarantee you that no potential buyer of this board is impressed by that video.

Surly there is a better way to change that perception and have the boards shine in their elements, we just haven't seen it. I hope both of you can see it as constructive criticism to the picture you're trying
to paint. There is nothing more I would like than to be supportive of a newcomer to this market with a promise of a true value but up until now they haven't done a great job. not in coverage and not
with their choices. Maybe Bruno will be their saving grace.
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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #851 on: March 12, 2019, 07:51:45 AM »
Three thoughts:

1) I don't think it's unreasonable for brands to make some boards that are fast but tippy and best suited to flat water and/or expert paddlers, as long as the brands also make more accessible boards for rough water and amateur paddlers.

2) It does seem that we have hit or passed "peak sup racing," and the new boards coming out every year is excessive

3) A < 10 kph average speed on a downwinder is pretty lame, suggesting an inexperienced rider, a weak effort, or poor conditions / equipment. 
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Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #852 on: March 12, 2019, 07:55:07 AM »
Both Luc and A10 are experienced offshore paddlers and like getting out there is some decent size swell.

You are giving me too much credit. I am at the unskilled end of the scale compared to many and most of my paddling is in 15~25 knots knee to hip high messy bumps with a few rare sessions at 30 knots or over and shoulder high. That said, I do paddle almost every week-end year-round so I am likely in the "motivated" section of the spectrum. I also do change my boards from time to time so at least in the used market contribute to the circulation of  the equipment. I am definitely not in the camp of buying a brand new board at full price so my contribution is more in helping to keep some resale value to last year boards rather than supporting trail-breaking.

From that point of view, if I was offered either of the Nelo board even at a great price, I would likely pass the offer as the limited information I have gathered on the boards through this forum would indicate that they would not meet my needs or rather I would not meet theirs.... :-)

I am truly sorry that this goes again Ludovic's assessment of the boards that have been really working very well for him and I sure wish him all the best in the sale of his board, just as I wish all the best for the brand as it would be good to have this type of construction offered in the market. I know that it is frustrating to have a board for sale when you are waiting for this to get your next board. I have however never represented that my opinion extended past my own circumstances nor that it should be representative of others. As such I do not think that my comments are been unethical nor unjustified.

BTW: I contacted the author of the two videos on FB and asked him about his take on the various boards from a chop and downwind point of view. I believe that he has paddled the Maliko and the Sidewinder before so it might be a useful input.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:39:49 AM by Luc Benac »
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Viento 520

Luc Benac

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #853 on: March 12, 2019, 08:02:51 AM »
3) A < 10 kph average speed on a downwinder is pretty lame, suggesting an inexperienced rider, a weak effort, or poor conditions / equipment.

Inconsistent wind, poor alignement of wind/bumps/direction you need to travel and messy cross-chop bumps some with little push in them would do that even to a very good paddler.
Many very experienced paddlers used to a certain type of good conditions discover this when changing spots.
This will likely be compounded by not having enough stability on the board for the conditions.
Just something to keep in mind :-)
Conditions are not always nicely aligned, clean bumps - regretfully  :'( it would make it too easy and fun.

But yes a top paddler (which I believe you are from your blog and posts) would likely keep that average no matter what even taking into account paddling upwind or side-wind to get to a launch point for the DW portion or to get to the landing point.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:20:56 AM by Luc Benac »
Naish Maliko 14' x 26" 273L
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
 *Salish 460 & 500, Viento 520

FloridaWindSUP

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Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #854 on: March 12, 2019, 10:01:15 AM »
Hmm, on further reflection I'm reminded of a time not too long ago where I couldn't even achieve 9 kph in difficult downwind conditions where I lacked stability. It was the beginning of the Key West classic race in 2017, I think. Trying to catch the bumps I was falling a lot and being passed by a female friend on a 12'6 who was just paddling along not even trying to catch the bumps. I should remember that and not to be such a snob. :)
14x23 Riviera RP
14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon
11'8 Exocet WindSUP
10'4 Angulo WindSUP
...and a bunch of windsurf stuff

 


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