2018 Raceboard rumours ?

[Luc Benac]

ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.

)
I refuse to be reminded of this everyday :-)
Thanks for yoga

[ukgm]

ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.

I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.

Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.

[Eagle]

Just think of Larry in his prime of 84.  He would smoke these guys no probs even over 12 miles. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Cain

[Area 10]

ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.

I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.

Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.

Come back in ten years. If you are still racing then and finishing close to where you are now then I'll buy you a drink. There's probably a selection artefact in sports performance data for ageing in competitive sports - if you aren't ageing extraordinarily well then you won't be taking part in the sports. So you probably aren't looking at data from a true cross-section of the population.

[Eagle]

Here is some research on VO2 max and aging.

"These findings provide evidence that the age-related decrease in VO2max of master athletes who continue to engage in regular vigorous endurance exercise training is approximately one-half the rate of decline seen in age-matched sedentary subjects."

http://jap.physiology.org/content/68/5/2195

"We conclude that in both sexes, a large portion of the age-associated decline in VO2max in non-endurance-trained individuals is explicable by the loss of muscle mass, which is observed with advancing age."

http://jap.physiology.org/content/65/3/1147.short

"On the other hand, there is a decline in skeletal muscle oxidative capacity with aging, due in part to mitochondrial dysfunction, which appears to play a particularly important role in extreme old age (senescence) where skeletal muscle VO2 max is observed to decline by approximately 50% even under conditions of similar oxygen delivery as young adult muscle."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18347663

[Eagle]

Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.

M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44

At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off.  Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off.  Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline.  For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more.  Good technique helps for sure.

[burchas]

Great pics, burchas, thanks very much.

Looks like the RS should be pretty stable for its width. I'm surprised the deck isn't lowered just a little bit more. That's what I was expecting. But maybe if it's got eg. the PPG in mind, then you'd want to minimise the deck lowering. I'd love to try one, it could be a very adaptable shape. Do you know what sizes it will be coming in?

If I heard right, I think they'll have one wider than 26", I think 3 or 4 width option
altogether. So maybe something for ukgm after all.

[JEG]

that was a good race, it had all condition to paddle. Just can't believe their upwind speed around 11k-ish, wow!

[ukgm]

Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.

M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44

At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off.  Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off.  Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline.  For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more.  Good technique helps for sure.

Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.

1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.

2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.

3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.

4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.

For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.

[ukgm]

ukgm - wait until you are in your 50s before you say that. Many people don't notice *too* much drop-off up until 40-45 but the following 10 years are absolutely brutal for most people, no matter how low impact the sport is.

I just go by the published age related performance data of swimming, biking or running. I can't see SUP being any different to any of those. Yep, they'll be drop off but the decline is going to vary.

Note: I'm currently nigh on 42.

So you probably aren't looking at data from a true cross-section of the population.

I would agree with you entirely. If I recall correctly, a lot of the data is based on age group world records. However, a lot of the data does not take into account 'generation endurance' i.e. the  recent and heavy rise of both competitive sport throughout a persons age and a greater personal understanding of how to train properly for it. I suspect a lot of the data is going to be rewritten soon.

[yugi]

http://valleyadvocate.com/2012/10/18/how-emborn-to-runem-explains-age-and-gender/ 

[Area 10]

Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.

M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44

At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off.  Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off.  Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline.  For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more.  Good technique helps for sure.

Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.

1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.

2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.

3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.

4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.

For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.

Mostly the age effect is about injury and recovery, I think. Most active people acquire some injury at some point which will limit them. But no matter how cleverly you train you'll find that as you enter your 50s you just can't maintain the volume of training you once could. Recovery and adaptation to training events takes a little longer each year, just as it takes longer for a cut to heal when you are 50 than when you are 25. There's not much you can do about it. For sure you can offset the decline with clever strategy, experience, knowing your body and increased training diligence and technique. But you are still pushing a turd up a hill with a stick, not rolling down with it as you did in your early 20s.

Very little is known about the science of recovery, as far as I can determine. Mostly no doubt because the world's top sports science practioners are understandably focussed on elite youngsters most. And this current vogue for older people to take up endurance and extreme sports is a very new phenomenon -this is the first generation really where large numbers are doing it, afforded to some extent by the reduction of manual labour/labour-saving devices. Knowing more about recovery might help us all enormously not only as we age, but also in terms of recovery from ailments etc. So you don't hear much about recovery and ageing in sports science textbooks. But that's really what limits you as you get older IMO. You simply can't train as much each week as you used to before overtraining sets in and bad things start happening.

So, start keeping records of eg. heart-rate variability etc after your training events, and watch over the next 10 years the very slow decline in your training volume, and increased need for sleep. I didn't notice anything much until age 45 but the last 10 years have been brutal, and the last a lot 5 worse than the previous 5. Even training monsters like Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama are starting to have to pick their battles now that they are closing in on 55.

Extreme endurance performance is something else altogether. There are probably different factors at work there than for most "normal" athletic endeavours.

[ukgm]

Based on the 2013 M2O endurance race.

M01-29 Top 5 -> 5:02-5:27
M30-39 Top 5 -> 4:50-5:38
M40-49 Top 5 -> 5:42-6:44

At 40 up to 50 the wheels start coming off.  Slowly then quickly once muscle mass declines and VO2 max drops off.  Def building muscle and continuing with endurance fitness etc helps a ton to slow decline.  For short distances like 12 miles not so bad -> but up that to 32 or more.  Good technique helps for sure.

Well, here's the thing. I don't believe that anyone disputes the natural decline of age but there are some factors I believe which will help someone 'survive' for longer.

1) Time served in a sport makes a difference. It's been said that regardless of age, if you're new to a sport, you may continue to improve for 5-6 years due to the learning curve. Even if you're 40+, this can mask some of your slide - particularly if technique is a major factor.

2) Whilst Vo2 max declines from 30, aerobic efficiency can continue to improve well beyond this and may offset (temporarily) some overall performance decline.

3) I doubt (unproven) that most SUP athletes are training to maximum capacity. An older athlete may be able to outpace a younger one. Particularly if they have well ingrained technique. For anyone who looks at Larry's facebook page, its obvious that, even in his 50's, he still has the work ethic and training load tolerance of an Olympian. I'm not that convinced that all of the younger people in front of him do.

4) In addition, certain races with certain technical conditions are going to reward the watermen more than the training machines. Anyone familiar with Oscar Chalupski in Ocean Ski racing will be familiar with this. He is older than Larry and still places on podiums on international level downwinders. He knows how to read the water. Sure, you're eventually going to get hammered by someone old enough to be your child when things get glassy but this can be staved off for a while.

For what it's worth, I have power output or training data of most sports I've done for the last 15 years or so. I'm still finding out ways to get faster now at 41. A lot of this is likely due to not being a full time athlete (therefore never being at true maximum of my raw ability). However, I am trying to offset the inevitable so this year has seen a resurgence of vo2 max work and weight training. It's use it or lose it for me now but luckily I've only got one 'elite' sports project left to aim for next year. After that, most of my own targets are age group related anyway.

1) Mostly the age effect is about injury and recovery, I think.

2) And this current vogue for older people to take up endurance and extreme sports is a very new phenomenon -this is the first generation really where large numbers are doing it.

3) So, start keeping records of eg. heart-rate variability etc after your training events, and watch over the next 10 years the very slow decline in your training volume, and increased need for sleep. I didn't notice anything much until age 45 but the last 10 years have been brutal, and the last a lot 5 worse than the previous 5. Even training monsters like Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama are starting to have to pick their battles now that they are closing in on 55.

1) From people I've spoken to, the issue of recovery seems to be the defining factor between being an elite athlete and joe normal at any age - particulary in endurance sports.

2) Yep, as I mentioned above. i think our pre conceptions are going to be re-written. Mainly as the slack between elite endurance athletes often retiring completely around 35-38 is going to be taken up by those that started later and have more knowledge than previous generations.

3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.

You are, of course right but then you don't half know how to depress a guy on a Monday morning. Can't we get back to discussing about what new 2018 board is going to hide my decline for a year or two ?!!!

[yugi]

If you're over 50 and not fit it'll be a real drag for sure to try get in shape but if you've always been athletic it's relatively easy to maintain. And I'm a desk jockey by day.

You can do it if you want to.

You're right about injury. I'm pretty much done with running thanks to a trashed ankle messing up a wakeboard flip landing.  The screws in there bother me. Read Born to Run. It's a fun book even if you aren't a runner. It's all about old farts never slowing down.

I'm not slowing down. I'm still getting better and that's thanks to SUP I have to say.

I picked SUP up, of course, for no wind days on the water but also to regain shoulder strength after a shattered shoulder. The cross training has definitely helped both my biking and skiing fitness levels. SUP I'm still getting faster.

So far so good.

[yugi]

...
3) As far as training goes, I abandoned anything to do with heart rate monitors around 5 years ago.
...

That's interesting. Esp coming from you.

I abandoned heart rate monitors over 25 years ago.

I'd read a running book in the early 70's that talked about training at a "conversation pace". When I was racing Mtn bikes in the 80's I got a heart rate monitor and did a full test with an elite sports doctor friend to determine my ideal heart rate training zones. I used the heart rate monitor for a year or so only. It was cool to calibrate myself to understand what the "zone" feels like. Then dropped it. Turns out my ideal heart rate training pace was exactly "conversation pace".

Paddling, Mtn bike and ski skinning uphill I'll be the guy talking the whole way. It's a habit.