Winter Monsoon Downwind Vid - Best conditions of 2016

[Eagle]

I have posted this link to his vid a few times now.  And Clement is probs one of the most accomplished on an Ace in breezy DW conditions.  His balance and carving off his fin demonstrate a very high skill and comfort level.    Notice he always jumps to the waves ahead and guns it full power to get there.  No stalling or broaching problems because of his fin.  The amount he moves forward and back and left and right is really quite excellent vs Penelope or Olivia.

But it was not that apparent the nose of the Ace was going to pearl that deep and fill up so quick.  In the vid - the wave ahead actually looked somewhat flat and perfect to plane over.  So vids can be quite deceiving at times.  In that instance -> I would have slowed down by dragging my paddle but still gotten back to keep the nose up.  The wave ahead was obviously much steeper in real life vs so much squashed down by the high up GoPro perspective.  I have pearled the Touring pin once like that in steep waves - and once was plenty enough.

Trying to plane the Touring pin with its low rocker piercing displacement nose is a very risky endeavor vs a surf nose board with plenty of rocker.  But planing only occurs in waves that are somewhat steep.  So sometimes you have just got to go for it.  Haha.

Here is how much nose rocker my M14 has with the SIC 7.0 fin propping up the tail off the snow.  Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin.  It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability.  In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right.  Not good if it is blowing you away from land.  Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it.   

[yugi]

Eagle,
You using an AllStar23. You ASKED for the Rail26. I’m surprised you aren’t on one. At least try it. I would venture to suggest that you could have a very sweet quiver with just your Allstar23 and a Rail26.

I realise you pick up boards second hand at good prices but if you sold a few of your current boards you could just buy a Rail26 new. The Bullet will sell at a good price, it’s still top of its game (you, however are too light for it). Sell the Dominator and Touring cheap and do some newcomers to the sport a favor.

Honestly a Rail 26 would easily replace your Dominator, Touring, Bullet and M14. Both for grin factor and speed. OK, the M14 is nice to be on in winter coz it’s extra stable and it’s exxxxtra cold where you ride. So keep that, it’s always a good board for DW nOOb friends to start on.

Put it this way. If a clone of yourself, Eagle2, on a Rail26 were to race you across a dozen races of random conditions and routes; I’d say Eagle2 would, overall, have the edge on you with  either of Dominator, Touring, Bullet. And be having more fun. The Dominator may have a slight edge on flat, but then you should be on your AS23. The Bullet may have a slight edge jumping up on a plane just slighty earlier in light DW, it does rule for that, but then again you’d be on your AS23. What’s the Touring got going for it? A sexy classic fish pintail shape? Guess what, so does the Rail. The Rail26 would beat the M14 in all conditions, but if you have to keep a deep winter safety board keep that one. It’s solid and pretty and fun even if it won’t win anything.

I’d bet you beers on it if I were closer.

Just me wondering why the guy who got what he asked for with the Rail isn’t on one yet. It’s not a board for DW nOObs, but if you’re riding your AS23 on downwinders you most definitely will be right at home on the Rail26.

You don’t need that extra rocker for steep short period downwinds. You adapt pretty quickly to lower rocker which is why all current DW boards are lower rocker. I’d even say its funner and faster. Makes you be correct more of the time. It’s that learning which is the fun part. My Rogue is lower than the Rail and I rarely poke it (and I’m not a guy who hangs out on the back of my board. Like Clement and Olivia I’m right back up at the handle in between screamers). I learned that on my M14 V1.

Speaking of poking check DK’s vid where (his first ride) he does poke the Rail. I think it’s on of the best handling boards if it does poke. Comes right back up and don’t slam the brakes like a Bullet V2. It has a very sleek nose and just the right amount of ski jump up at the tip. Next summer he won’t be poking it any more.

Think about it. Quiver slimming is very healthy.

[yugi]

…
Anyone that wants to turn on a DW needs to get a 7.0 fin.  It saved me yesterday from a stall and broach because of its small size - yet gave me just enough directional stability.  In the breezy side wind yesterday - I was going full power left but the board was mostly wanting to still go right.  Not good if it is blowing you away from land.  Did get the board to plane a bit so that was worth it.   

I concur with Eagle on the smaller fin.

A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I’m in Eagles camp.
 
DK,
You got some fins to fiddle with the Rail26? Let us know what works for you. You are the turn master so I’d love to hear what you think.

[yugi]

Speaking of standing at the handle.

Offshore,
Notice how both Clement and Olivia paddle standing at the handle and move back for the drops and the turns, then come back up to the handle. I don’t think you being planted at “the tiller” position is helping you. What did DJ call that again?

I can understand why a SIC F16 and an Ace are pretty forgiving and allow you to stay planted a foot and a 1/2 behind the handle but it clearly isn’t the optimal way to get into faces of a wave for some planning action.

Factor in that taking a step back actually scoots your board forward in too.

[Area 10]

A10,
recently you recommended a bigger fin for bigger conditions. What was with that? I’m in Eagles camp.

The conditions I downwind in are often quite a bit more extreme and confused than I most often see videos of here. Once you reach a point where you are getting blown into waist-high+ bumps without having to paddle for them, in very confused seas with steep drops, you need some depth in your fin for control, otherwise your rear end will let go: If the bump raises your rear tail sufficiently that the depth of your fin is exceeded then you are a mere passenger who has an uncertain near future. This is why most specialised downwind fins and rudder have depths in excess of 8".

Moreover, a 10" True Ames Squirrel has an area of around 40 sq inches or slightly less. So it is similar in area to the VMG Mako 37 that Beau O’Brian uses for downwind racing (and smaller than their Mako 44 that VMG recommend for rough water stability). The Future California Downwind (9.5" depth) has 43.5. So it is not as if even the biggest Squirrel fin I use is big in terms of area.

I use smaller fins in smaller conditions, and have been a fan of the SIC Weedless 7.0 since even before Eagle I have two of them (and two of the 8.3 too) and will use them in smaller conditions - or drop to a smaller size Squirrel or 8 or 9" depending on the sea state and how much surfing, as opposed to gliding, will be required.

Sometimes speed and fun is all about control, not lack of drag.

[yugi]

I understand the deep area will help stabilise roll but would think it also makes the board broach more if heading sidewind and pushed sideways by a wave. Guess I need to try. I’ll get a FatBoy 10” sometime.

It’s all so personal. I tend to get used to what I have. So I know to get a feel for something you first need to get used to, but by then you’re, well, pretty used to it.

What works well on an Ace?

[Eagle]

Haha!!  yugi - the Rail looks to be a nice board.  But with my family and friends all needing a board to ride on -> do not have options to cut back.  I need all 5 boards!!  Maybe if I were a single Eagle2 that would work.  But I have a wife and kids - and they all need boards!  Plus friends and relatives when they visit.  But really -> the only boards I use are the M14 and AS23.  The others are superfluous for me at this point.  The Dom and Touring pin are too wide.  And the Bullet does not have enough rocker for steep drops.  But my weight is ok on that board.  Seems to float me about right.

The M14 with the SIC 7.0 actually does turn on a dime and feels kinda like a 12'6.  That fin is simply awesome with that board.  Actually frees up the bottom and allows the board to unstick because there is less drag.  That is my goto DW board.  And the AS23 is the board that challenges me in cold water and in breeze up to 15 kts.  Yesterday was quite risky on that board - as the breeze was very gusty with lots of reflected cross chop.  You must try one.  Really works the legs.  Stayed dry though -> so that in itself was a reasonable accomplishment. 

But yes more rocker is better in steep drops.  Much safer and easier to ride in festive conditions.  My skill level is crap vs some guys I know.  So more stable is always better for me.  I have tried all my boards in adverse conditions.  The AS23 is the worst -> and the M14 the best.  My guess is the 26.5 Rail would be a very straightforward DW board for me to ride though.  26.5 is very wide.  Have you tried an AS23 yet?  Pics showing the huge design differences btwn these very excellent boards.

[Area 10]

Yugi - I'm not talking about stabilising roll - that's something different altogether. I'm talking about what happens when a bump approaches from behind and lifts the tail of your board. You need your weight forward in order to maximise your chances of catching the bump. But this will mean that the tail end of your board will be lifted clear of the water surface as the bump passes under you (in steep short period swell). If your fin has insufficient depth or area towards the tip then you will lose control of the tail at this point and it is likely either that you will lose direction and/or if it coincides with a paddle stroke you can pull yourself round and broach or pearl the board. The beauty of a squirrel cutaway type design is that the area is kept down low in order to enable this control while still maintaining a relatively low overall area and a short base (thereby enhancing manoeuvrability).

The standard Ace fin isn't too bad in it. A Squirrel/Fat Boy gives a bit more stability and control. But a secret to the Ace is using using opposite rail steer so it's a bit different from other boards. It also has the fin placed a bit more forward than many which is another factor to consider, and the pintail is in effect a fin in itself if you use it right. So you don't need as much area as you do with some other boards. It can't really be tamed terribly well by changes of fin: the Ace handling is a kinda law unto itself and you have to ride it a bit differently from other boards.

[yugi]

I see. I have that happen in my early days on a very straight [flatwater] 14’. I haven’t had that in years! Yet I am at the handle, sometimes even stomp a foot well forward of the handle if I risk losing the wave but still have a chance to get it. My Rogue has the fin box well forward. Yet I do ride other boards, ;ile Bullets which have the fin far back. I haven’t had that in so long. Am I just maintaining speed better? Paddling harder? Hmmm, I wonder why.

Now I’m curious what I’m doing right!

OK, yes, for that you’d want depth.

[Eagle]

A10 is correct.  He did put me onto the 7.0 when I was looking for a fin better than the 8.3 SIC.  I found on my AS23 I could not go 90 cross waves in breeze with the 8.3 without stalling the fin.  And he suggested the 7.0 or Fat Boy.  Tried one 7.0 and bought another 2 for my other boards I liked it so much.  This way my wife also uses the 7.0 on the Dominator.  I now have 3-7.0 and 2-8.3 SIC fins.  But the weird thing is there are 2 different foil sections.  One fatter and one thinner.  The fatter one is a touch more forgiving vs the thinner one.  Very nuanced though.

I think Clement just uses the OEM Race 23 orange hexcel fin.  Same as what came with Touring board.  Ok narrow dolphin that works ok.  In the pic it is attached to the Dominator to free up the tail.  I could feel the drag on a stall though with that fin.  The 8.3 and the Race 23 fins were my most used fins at that point.  The 7.0 ->  I use for everything now.

[Eagle]

"You don’t need that extra rocker for steep short period downwinds. You adapt pretty quickly to lower rocker which is why all current DW boards are lower rocker. I’d even say its funner and faster. Makes you be correct more of the time."

yugi - you must be joking about this.  Just try if you can - riding a flat rocker AS23 vs a M14 in steep  short period DW.  Anything 15-30 kts would work.  And let me know what you think.  You do not adapt pretty quickly in festive conditions unless you are Connor or Kai.  The AS23 is pretty much all I can handle in 15 kts.  20 kts DW with steep waves is pushing my limits hugely on that board.  15 kts small waves is super fun though.  Actually is perfect in that.

[Area 10]

I think Yugi is saying this maybe perhaps because of his experience with particular boards. Some boards tend to sit high on the bump and rarely scoot down it unless you go really mental. These kinds of boards (and I'd include maybe the Bark Vapor in this - although it actually achieves quite a good balance between these conditions) don't need the rocker so much. But in really good and big conditions rocker is generally your friend for sure - most brands don't make a full-on planing-style DW board so we don't commonly see many of the top people on them except maybe come M2O when they are paddling custom ULs badged to look like their sponsors' boards. If they did make them then we'd see them more often, and we'd see more extreme conditions tackled in international races. At the moment most big races outside Hawaii are pretty tame.

I'd be interested to see our friends from Cape Town racing in 30+ knots on a Naish Maliko 2017 versus a Naish Glide 2013 (or even 2010). And a SIC Bullet V1 vs. a Bullet V2.

[Eagle]

Probs the market for steep  short period DW action is pretty small.  Sure the lower rocker Bullet is ok - but no way you want that going into Squamish River.  Pearl city vs stall on the tail.  Whereas the M14 just carries along just fine - much better balanced.

Kinda like your SW23 vs your rockered DW boards.  Give me a rockered DW board any day over the new gen flat rockered boards for festive DW conditions.

I paddled the Bullet a lot in all conditions.  So I know that board like the back of my hand.  All of my boards really.  But let me see an average joe rider paddle an AS23 in 20kts short period chop.  That would be one very wet rider.  Probs crying for mommy.  Easy to talk about this on dry land.  But I actually have done this in real life.   

[Area 10]

Try one of the narrow Aces in 25 knots+ and waist-high bumps if you *really* want a challenge. The 23 AS will feel easy! I nearly gave up SUP altogether: there's "a challenge" and then there's "tooth extraction with no anaesthetic". That board has given me the only times in a SUP that I really haven't enjoyed.

But then...in groomed small stuff and 20 knots it is a blast.

Still damned ugly no matter what the conditions though 😀

[Eagle]

"Still damned ugly no matter what the conditions though 😀"   

Haha!  I have cried mommy often enough A10.  I am not that much of a masochist.  I know my limits.