Needing more feedback on Ke Nalu Mana

[PonoBill]

Interesting about the xTuf spreading the power. the falloff is very distinct with the 100Flex, though I use it as a cue for downwinding  to pull the paddle out and get another catch. I did a downwinder today in light wind--just enough to have bumps all the way--and I did a 1:21 for 7.5 mile Viento run. Not my fastest, but very respectable for conditions. the blade had me working like a dog chasing bumps, I never felt like I could let up. It was yelling at me the whole way: Go, go, go...

It's kind of a pushy little bitch.

The xTuf might be faster in flatwater.

[JP]

So I just completed my first paddle with the Mana 90.  (Flatwater/lake).  What I found is that the catch is very strong and it holds power all the way through the stroke.  It feels like there is no slipping at all.  It takes a lot less concentration than the Konihi 84, to achieve an efficient stroke.  Because of such a strong catch I would say it feels closer to the Konihi 95 than the Konihi 84. (As a personal preference - I was hoping it would fall right in the middle)

I did 8 sprint intervals of 1/4 mile each, and I had higher average speeds and higher top speeds than I have had with either of the Konihi blades.  I finished with a 2 mile steady paddle, and although it was a little hard to do a proper comparison because it was partly downwind and partly into a headwind. (And for the fact it was only one session).  I do believe based on the speeds that GPS showed, it should be at least as fast, and likely a little faster over a distance than with either Konihi blade. 

As a first impression - I would say the Mana 90 basically achieved what I hoped it would.  I certainly didn't feel as taxed strength-wise as I would with the Konihi 95, so it will be interesting to see how it compares over longer distances (10 miles) to the Konihi 84.  I believe I should be able to maintain a slower/more comfortable cadence  than the Konihi 84, and it certainly requires less concentration - which should also help over a longer time period.



 

[Luc Benac]

I believe I should be able to maintain a slower/more comfortable cadence  than the Konihi 84, and it certainly requires less concentration - which should also help over a longer time period.

That is exactly what I am looking for. My only paddle with the Mana 82, let me to believe that it will still require higher cadence and cardio if maybe less than the Konihi 84.
I could see the Mana 82 been perfect (and easier than the K84) for say a 5 km race.
But 10 km and down winding going to the Mana 90.
This is for a 165 lbs paddler.

[PonoBill]

Yesterday's paddle confirmed the "less concentration" issue for me. I did it on my 12'2" in preparation for the Gorge Paddle Challenge races. Between working to stay upright (only two falls!) and steering without a rudder I didn't pay much attention to stroke purity, but I was getting lots of bumps. Pretty much everything I went for, through some required persistence.

[yugi]

I’m not subscribing to this idea that a smaller paddle blade requires a higher cadence. That would presume that your blade slips in the water.

I’m with Puakea that you set your blade and your cadence corresponds to the speed of your craft. Otherwise you’d be “spinning wheels”.

Moving to a smaller blade I found I learned better how to set it and it certainly didn’t mean automatic higher cadence. Yes, the return is easier to do quicker as they are so flickable.

At some point I guess a too small blade would slip. At 86 sq in that doesn’t seem to be happening for me.

[Luc Benac]

I wish I had a tool that shows the cadence to help compare outside of becoming out of breath :-).
If the blade is slipping from time to time, would you need to use a higher cadence to compensate and reach the same speed?
So Yugi what you are saying is that a paddler would get the same output regardless of the blade size as long as the blade is not slipping (i.e. stays in place), the cadence is the same and the stroke length is the same?
In that case, a paddler should use the smallest possible blade for his/her technique before it slips even with minimal effort. As technique improves blade's size should decrease without any change in the cadence nor the speed.
Not sure I capture the implication of your statement or not?

Cheers,
Luc

[zachhandler]

This "blade not slipping" idea is starting to annoy me.

The blade always slips on every stroke for every paddler and in every type of paddle craft. Think about it: If water was not slipping around the edges of the paddle there would be no vortices in the water and the kenalu winglets would not work.

If there was no slipping then a large blade would be no harder on the body than a small blade and would feel no different in the water. If there was no slipping you could make the blade the size of a business card and it would work as well as a full size blade.

As long as we are paddling in a fluid the blade will slip. Perfect technique can minimize but not prevent slipping.

[yugi]

agree

Still. Water is pretty damn heavy, at least for this wimpy rider.

As always it's a "how much" thing. Going smaller the shape is more optimised and I guess I've learned to have it slip less so end up in same place (with less "shock").

I guess I should have said that for the given downsize I don't see a reason for cadence to increase by as much as I'm understanding it does form the posts. And if it is the case then looks like the "too small" point has been reached.

There obviously is a point of diminishing returns. Though I sure do look forward to using my Bz Cards when I get better.

[PonoBill]

Every paddle slips, unless it has infinite size. Smaller paddles slip more because there's a shorter distance for the water to travel to run off the edge. You can have less entrained air, and you can pause for a microsecond to let the water flow back onto the face after inserting it, but other than that. it's going to slip.

How much and how fast is a function of aspect ratio, blade shape, and dihedral. But most of all--size.

[burchas]

This "blade not slipping" idea is starting to annoy me.

Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like the poster uses the word slipping to describe paddle
flutter. Use to happen to me a lot before I started paying attention to proper technic and it did feel like the paddle was slipping but not the way you think of it but more because I was catching a lot of air (As Larry Cain describes it) due to improper technic.

At that time I was using a paddle size 100sqi As my technic improved I was actually able
to produce the same/better results on a smaller sized paddled. I'm now on an 80sqi and my results are better than they ever used to be, same amount of training.

The other thing I've noticed is that with my improved technic, I'm no longer able to comfortably use the bigger blades, I just load-up the paddle too much and my level of training does not support the extra power needed to apply the same force on the bigger blade without burning my self in a very short period.

[burchas]

I don't see a reason for cadence to increase by as much as I'm understanding it does form the posts. And if it is the case then looks like the "too small" point has been reached.

There obviously is a point of diminishing returns. Though I sure do look forward to using my Bz Cards when I get better.

I also think you that is the case, however, what was too small yesterday could be just right
tomorrow, unless you have a 100% efficient technic.

I wonder what is the point of diminishing returns? It reminds me a time I was demoing a board and inadvertently ended up participating in a recreational race.

Thomas Maxismus was leading the group. I noticed he was using the paddle upside down and paddling with the handle while using the blade as the grip. I was fascinated by this, I was probably paddling at 80% and I was not gaining on him. That was a 2 mile race and he ended up second place.

Think about it, he was basically paddling with a credit card sized handle that is not even design to have a catch and still able to produce somewhere around the 4mph speed (he did use crazy fast SPM). So what is the point of diminishing returns?

[zachhandler]

I agree small paddles can be surprisingly effective. Kids who are learning to kayak are sometimes given a broomstick rather than a paddle and still move the boat pretty well. I used to being a tiny fiberglass kids paddle as my backup paddle when sea kayaking. I could paddle pretty fast with it.

I feel as though a small paddle is ineffective when accelerating as there is so much slippage. But once up to speed, when blade speed nearly matches boat speed (a la puakea) slippage is much less of a factor and small blades do well.

[JP]

When I am discussing the slipping effect - I am not so much talking about the technical aspect of exactly what is or isn't happening (I will leave that to you science guys) - I am simply talking about what I'm feeling.  I also am not talking about the "fluttering effect". I find the design of the Konihi and the Mana very much help to eliminate that, and I paddle enough to understand what is or isn't efficient concerning the planting, catching and power phase of the stroke.

Yes, when I am in a comfortable rhythm on a distance paddle - the Konihi 84 cadence and speed is not much different from the K95.  When I am talking about the differences - I am generally not talking huge differences (The small differences add up to a lot however, over a longer distance).  However, it takes a much higher concentration to properly load the paddle as my strength wants to pull harder.  And when I am in a sprint situation (i.e.. short races and race starts) or when I want to pick up my speed in various situations throughout a race where it requires my cadence to increase - the smaller blade becomes inefficient for me.  I'm not saying that I don't still go faster - just that it is not as efficient, because it feels like the blade is "slipping" and not holding the water as well.  Another factor is that it's very hard to maintain perfect technique over a longer period (@10 miles/2hrs) on flatwater.  So even a slight increase in cadence over that time period has a large effect on stamina as well as technique.  With a larger blade, I am able to maintain better technique because it's just easier to more efficiently load the paddle in relation to my strength, which helps to slightly lower my cadence. The trade off is that over the longer period, my strength decreases to the point that it becomes harder to hold my power effectively through the stroke.  That's why I've been trying to find that middle ground.

What I found paddling with the Mana 90 is that the catch is so strong and clean - and it holds  the water so quickly, as well as holding well throughout the stroke (with much less concentration).  So I found myself not reaching quite as far as I would have with either the K84 or K95.  I think I was extending my reach a little more with the Konihi, to give myself that extra milli second to feel the paddle load, whereas the Mana loads almost without effort.  It feels as though all you need to do is get it in the water and it takes care of the rest.  Of course that's oversimpifying things and I'm still working to feel the loading and concentrating on technique - it just is a different feel for me than with the Konihi, and the blade size is also a part of that. 

If I was to contribute to "Paddle blade sizes for Dummies", in my own layman's terms I would say that blade sizes do make a difference, otherwise there wouldn't be different sizes. I think that blade size does have an effect on cadence, efficiency, speed and power in the same manner as gears on a bike.  And that is directly in relation to what suits the person in terms of strength and stamina.  For years I paddled with blade sizes over 100 sq" and I had a slower more powerful stroke. Now that I've gone to smaller blades, my cadence has increased (slightly) and I am faster over longer distances because I am better able to maintain my strength over that time.  I know there is on effect on cadence because I usually paddle with a Speedcoach. Remember I paddle mostly on flatwater, and so cadence is something much easier to measure and feel as I am generally more in a steady state of paddling. 

[PonoBill]

With the crazy wind these last two days and paddling my surfboard most of the time, I'm finding the Mana even more effective. It catches well no matter what you do--which means it's not great for reinforcing training efforts, but in crazy bumps with a bucking surfboard, doing all kinds of quick angles to stay in the power, the Mana has been great. A sloppy reach and quick grab with only half the blade sunk still gave a lot of power. If I did that with a Konihi it would sound like I flushed a toilet and I'd get one-quarter of the usual power.

The bracing strength has been a godsend too. I've pulled myself back onto the board when all was lost.  That's especially effective and precious with the surfboard. I can really yank that board back under me, and I REALLY don't want to fall. I lost about a minute per fall with that thing since it takes me so long to get back up on it. Can't pop, so I have to lumber back to my feet on a confused bongo board. Frequently results in two more falls to get going.

[JP]

PB, I totally agree with what you re saying about the catch and the difference from the Konihi.  It feels like it grabs and holds water before you even have the blade fully in.  It's really different, in that sense, from any other paddle I have used.  I often use the image of planting the blade in cement and then pulling myself to the paddle, as a way to better my technique.  The Mana has such a firm and solid catch, that it almost forces you to use that technique without thinking about it.