Author Topic: Cheap Electric fatbike  (Read 51663 times)

paddlejones

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #240 on: May 23, 2019, 07:02:27 AM »
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/lapierre-ezesty-am-ltd-ultimate-2019-review/

This bike shaves 10 lbs & you can remove the motor & battery and ride it

Not Cheap, not sure if we can buy it in the us, probably only 250 watts

PonoBill

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #241 on: May 23, 2019, 08:48:21 AM »
That flyon motor looks a lot more like a reasonable solution: 88ft lbs of torque and 920 watts in its highest spec. Couldn't find any info on weight, but it looks like it could be light. Kind of eye-watering price for a dabbler like me, but I guess serious MTB riders are more used to dropping $10k on something with pedals.

The DIY aspect of eBikes is fading as a primary source pretty quickly, the more advanced systems and components are aimed at OEM design rather than being anything a home hacker can deal with. Even BaFeng is changing their focus toward components for large manufacturers, and Luna Cycles features completed bikes rather than components. All the stuff is still available, but you have to search for it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it emphasized even less in a few years
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Admin

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #242 on: May 23, 2019, 09:52:14 AM »
That flyon motor looks a lot more like a reasonable solution: 88ft lbs of torque and 920 watts in its highest spec. Couldn't find any info on weight, but it looks like it could be light. Kind of eye-watering price for a dabbler like me, but I guess serious MTB riders are more used to dropping $10k on something with pedals.

The DIY aspect of eBikes is fading as a primary source pretty quickly, the more advanced systems and components are aimed at OEM design rather than being anything a home hacker can deal with. Even BaFeng is changing their focus toward components for large manufacturers, and Luna Cycles features completed bikes rather than components. All the stuff is still available, but you have to search for it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it emphasized even less in a few years

Haibike has a bunch of MTB models with Flyon motors but the least expensive is still $5,800.00 US.  They are reworking the motor for North america with 20 MPH restrictions (as opposed to the 15 MP model for Europe where I beleive they are already available).  Unfortunately it will be 2020 before they get here. 

Here is an interesting interview with the Flyon designer.  He is an awesome character:

https://youtu.be/V0qkfShozH4?t=322
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 10:41:40 AM by Admin »

TallDude

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #243 on: May 23, 2019, 10:44:56 AM »
My wife has been riding with her friend on her friends e-mountain bikes for over a year. Her manual full-suspension 29'r has been sitting in our garage mostly unused now ::)  I've been keeping my eye on these lately as there maybe a gift purchase for her coming at some point? They ride in the hills above our house which has a huge network of trails. The e-bikes might rekindle my interest in mountain biking. The crazy climbing that my wife likes to do, is opposite of the crazy down-hill I like to do. All that up hill is too much for my aging knees which is why I quit riding. Plus my old Gary Fischer hard-tail feels harder on my tail these days :-\

That Fylon motor has built-in algorithms that apparently compare your right and left leg stroke power and adjust the motor accordingly. I'm not sure if it averages the two sides, or actually increases the assist on one side for each individual stroke? A little AI in there. It seems like the motor wouldn't be able to ramp up and down in such micro burst to make that correction on every stroke? 

starman

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #244 on: May 23, 2019, 12:36:19 PM »
From my experience the bafang kits still have a lot of life. The bikes coming from companies like Hibike are beautiful and the PAD systems are very refined but...the 20mph limit and the proprietary battery make it very restrictive both for riding and future battery replacement. Considering the ability to program the bafang controller one can get pretty close to the feel of the torque sensing motors. There is even the EggRider display available that allows you to change program settings without the need of a cable and laptop.
If I was buying an bike for the wife for sure it would be something like the Hibike. But for me, after riding with a Bafang, i love the power and would hate to lose the throttle.
I totally agree with Admin, the drivetrain takes a beating. I had to replace my rear hub, spokes and upgraded to the SRAM EX1 cassette and derailer kit. I do see the future being a motor with gearbox with a direct drive belt eliminating the bicycle drivetrain entirely. This is the kind of ebike I'm saving my $$$ for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=el7Yk3axtSw

PonoBill

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #245 on: May 23, 2019, 12:49:31 PM »
It seems like the motor wouldn't be able to ramp up and down in such micro burst to make that correction on every stroke? 

Of course it would. The motors are more or less AC three phase motors (brushless permanent magnet DC) and the sine waves that power the motor are synthesized. The torque can be managed in time increments of the drive frequency. At 1000 RPM the period is .001 seconds (the motors are geared down to pedaling RPM. Given a pedaling rate of 60 RPM the power could be adjusted every one thousandth of a stroke or better.

Doesn't really take AI, a torque sensor tells the controller how much the rider is applying and the controller can make that effort up to a average value per full stroke. If your right side was stronger than your left controlling to an average would give you more poop on your weaker leg. Nice, and easy to do.

Slap a Bafeng HD on that 29" and she'd probably love it. Weigh the bike she's borrowing first and see if you'd be in the ballpark for weight. My el cheapo mongoose weighs 51 pounds, but that's with a ridiculous battery.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 12:52:58 PM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

TallDude

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #246 on: May 23, 2019, 03:40:34 PM »
It looks pretty tight in that space. She rides a smaller frame with the 29" wheel and the frame geometry on 29" bikes puts the front wheel even closer to the pedals. The swing arm and downward shock mount fill that bottom bracket area up. I think she has 'Pro pedal' on that which reduces bouncing when you pedal, but it mounts the swing arm above and in front of the bottom bracket. She has her purist MTB club that she still rides with on occasion, and they all frown on the e-MTB. I don't think I should mess with her existing bike, just get her or build her a separate one.
She said her friend's eMTB are heavy. The batteries have died on them and she said they've had to push them up the hills. You can't pedal a dead one up a hill because they are so heavy. And that's coming from someone with powerful climbing legs. 

PonoBill

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #247 on: May 23, 2019, 05:08:38 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't look like a great candidate, and no, you can't really pedal these things far without an assist. That's why I have a big honking battery. Mine will go about 40 miles on a charge unless I get too happy with the throttle.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #248 on: May 25, 2019, 09:44:45 AM »
PS, Here is a fun vid showing the Haibike Flyon hardtail (about $5,500 US) with a really good rider.  Airs pedaling uphill.  That really changes things.

https://youtu.be/6r2mMwnX8Mc?t=199

southwesterly

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #249 on: May 25, 2019, 10:23:56 AM »
This is my fat tire e-bike. It's a Rad Power Bike. This is the Mini. $1499, free delivery and no tax.

750 watts, 5 levels of pedal assist, has a throttle, folds up and fits in my car, gets 50 miles plus on a single charge and goes like a bat out of hell.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 10:35:17 AM by southwesterly »

PonoBill

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #250 on: May 25, 2019, 01:53:33 PM »
Rad makes a lot of nice bikes. If it wasn't so easy for me to build them I might buy one.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

eastbound

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #251 on: June 04, 2019, 06:19:52 AM »
sw'ly---spoke to a guy on one of those at a red light on my ride this morning--he said it's been great, battery solid for >5 months already---

i like the exercise, so far, of commuting/riding self-propelled---and i worry about danger--it's bad enough on a self-propelled--worry it might be worse on the electrics--a bit faster, and maybe, more relaxing??  so unlikely i will take the plunge

but the rad power bikes look compelling---you never know, might get one for the household
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

PonoBill

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #252 on: June 04, 2019, 10:12:17 AM »
You really have to brutalize Lithium batteries to have them die in a year or two, or design the pack badly. Packs last about 2000 charging cycles, individual cells can go much longer. There's a whole DIY powerwall community out there recycling removable Lithium laptop batteries by ditching the dead ones and testing the remainder for capacity before using them. Check the groups out on Facebook--it's a thing. These cells start their new life as powerwalls with thousands of charge cycles on them, and last for many thousands more. If you narrow the charge/discharge cycles to 50/80 percent the current thinking is that most cells will last for their stored float lifetime, which is .37 percent loss of capacity per year for older chemistries. Ten years gets you to 96 percent capacity, a hundred years is 60 percent. Battery life is not an issue. Abuse is the issue. I know firsthand, I've abused the shit out of many.

People still jump all over the mining issue for lithium and rare earth elements, as if oil and coal came from butterflies and dewdrops. The stuff is all still there after whatever you choose for a lifecycle. Eminently recycleable. People are weird.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #253 on: June 04, 2019, 11:04:09 AM »
Batteries are NOT the problem.

I now have 4 electric bikes.  ~ 10,000 cumulative miles between these 2. 

99% of my surfing for the past 8 years has been by bike carrying 1 or more boards.

I bought a 2nd Battery for the bike on the LEFT after 4,000 miles and 5 years.  It started to 'sag' and would get me to and from the beach with the board as quickly as it did when new.  The bike on the right has 2,500 miles and is still on its first battery. 

I have stretched chains, broken axles, snapped spokes, replaced transformers, worn through 10's of tires, brake pads and cables.  But the batteries NOT the main problem.

eastbound

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Re: Cheap Electric fatbike
« Reply #254 on: June 04, 2019, 11:07:37 AM »
Beasho,

Is that a yellow sup on your rack, behind the foilboard??

be careful--Lucifer would not be pleased!

Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT