Larry Cain's technique drills and videos

[Bycyclist]

So who are the "new school" folks? I've been taking private lessons, getting my stroke decent, but it's probably what you guys would call "old school".

I've been playing a bit with hip engagement, etc., but I hate wasting my time. I've already gone thru this in previous hobbies (competitive shooting, martial arts) where I've spent a lot of time and money only to find I was climbing up a suboptimal ladder.

[juandoe]

I don't see a lot of differences in Danny Ching's and Larry Cain's techniques.   Danny  has a little more side-entry on the plant but both are driving from the hips through the upper body. 




He told me he averages 6 strokes per side because after that he is "not accelerating." 

[Bycyclist]

In contrast with how I've learned so far, I'm seeing top hand stays higher, lower wrist "breaks" for faster release closer to feet, recovery path of paddle has less of an arc path, stays closer to the rail till extension/catch. Am I seeing this right?

[bat paddler]

lots of differences between the Danny video and the Cain Sample.

1. Danny has greater reach before paddle entry
2. Danny's paddle is more vertical on entry.
3. Danny's pull is shorter.
4. Danny looks to have fuller catch
5. Cain had less catch but loads after catch
6. Cain pulls longer
7. Cain stands stiffer on the board
8. Danny uses a more hinge in his stroke, Cain more twist.
9. Cain's catch is more "minimal effort" on entry.  Danny's is more heavy on entry.
10. Danny's stroke is in general more skilled, Cain's is more athletic based.

I'm sure there are more differences.

Best comment I have heard about paddling came from George of SIC.  He says the most important thing is to not lose the catch.

[juandoe]

Here you can see both paddlers in the same race.  Danny is passing so he is really pulling hard and Larry is drafting with some cross chop so the situations are a little different.   You can also see Larry following Anthony Vela in at the finish.   Look around the 0:45 mark.  You can also see Larry vs Terrell in  a sprint.   Danny has a nice stroke but I doubt most mortals can perform it effectively.  His power to weight ratio is incredible and he has the fitness to maintain it.  A few strokes like that and I am anaerobic.   

I would like to see what would happen if you gave Larry a shorter paddle.   I think it would look a lot more like Danny's stroke.

[PonoBill]

I don't see a lot of differences in Danny Ching's and Larry Cain's techniques.   Danny  has a little more side-entry on the plant but both are driving from the hips through the upper body. 

He told me he averages 6 strokes per side because after that he is "not accelerating."

I wouldn't choose a video at the finish of a distance race to analyze anyone's stroke--even Danny's. At that point of the BOP distance race I looked like I was trying to mix cake batter. But even with the small image and general exhaustion Danny's stroke is a lot more like what I have come to view as "modern" SUP technique--which is surprising, because Danny used to have a more traditional stroke. Basically what bat said, though I don't agree about the twist. Danny lunges more than Cain but he also digs with his paddle side shoulder and projects his offside shoulder.

I think for consistent technique based on study of modern paddle coaching it's tough to beat Kalama's stroke.  Kai Lenny's stroke is equally studied and elegant. Danny's stroke has been a little more "Hawaiian" in that he drops his upper hand more than some, though in recent years he's gone more to the "Tahitian" side with a more vertical paddle, keeping the upper hand up and recovering with a forward push instead of a swing. He's always had a beautiful smoothness to his stroke and a ridiculous amount of power.

In this old video Dave shows both the traditional Hawaiian and the Tahitian strokes. His technique has changed some since this--he leans forward more and buries his blade more. I plan to get him to show me that this year. The Hawaiian strokeis first--the ones where his upper hand drops and he swings the paddle to recover. In the Tahitian stroke he's keeping his upper hand high, describing an almond shaped orbit. The blade comes straight forward and you can see the timing difference, which results in his blade being out a little further in the catch and going into the water with no pull--even a tiny hesitation between when the blade is fully plunged and he starts pulling. The cadence is higher, even though he's taking his time getting the blade in the water.

Watch the tail of the board in the Tahitian stroke.

[juandoe]

My problem with Tahitian is trying to weight the paddle.  In Hawaiian, I can fall on the paddle and twist around my vertical axis.  With Tahitian, I feel like it is all pulling and no weighting.  I was just looking at some stills from the Carolina cup.  Interesting how similar Travis Grant and Danny are in their strokes.

[PonoBill]

Seems like everyone is going to the "fall on your blade" version of the stroke, but I don't understand why a Tahitian stroke would limit your ability to do that. Kalama certainly is doing that as I mentioned above.  I trace that back to the Australians--Annabelle in particular.  I think one of the differences in SUP stroke evolution and OC stroke is that we stand, and so we can put more body weight on the blade. If you do that in a canoe nothing much happens except the canoe bobs too much--and your coach or steersman yells at you..

The Tahitian stroke is mostly about recovery and upper hand position. Once your blade is in place you should be able to rotate onto it as you choose. The Tahitian stroke--or parts of it, should get you blade back into position quickly and let you do all the things you need to do to get the most out of your catch.

Remember that a "Tahitian Stroke" is a conoe thing, what SUP paddlers are doing is adapting pieces of it, trying to get to a better stroke. Everything is still in flux, but I don't believe the stroke people will be teaching in ten years will look anything like a Hawaiian recovery.

A great number of the current elite paddlers are in the Tiger Woods conundrum--they are great at the sub-optimal stroke they have mastered. They can do what Tiger did, and take a bunch of steps backwards, throwing away at least a year and maybe more of being at or near the top. Or they can paddle on and eventually be eclipsed buy younger athletes who are just as fit, who have been coached to a better technique. Happens in every sport, and there is not a right choice. The young bucks coming up will run over the top of today's masters sooner or later. the calculus has to be "If I make these changes, how long will it knock me off the top, and how much longer will it prolong my game." Tough call.

[bat paddler]

not that complicated.  many elements are only style, not substance.

1. get and maintain a good catch.
2. don't sink your board
2b. unweight your board as much as possible

you'll go fast with minimal effort.  and that's the right or wrong of it.

[PonoBill]

Ah yes. And an Omelet is just eggs.

[Kaihoe]

Seems like everyone is going to the "fall on your blade" version of the stroke, but I don't understand why a Tahitian stroke would limit your ability to do that. Kalama certainly is doing that as I mentioned above.  I trace that back to the Australians--Annabelle in particular.  I think one of the differences in SUP stroke evolution and OC stroke is that we stand, and so we can put more body weight on the blade. If you do that in a canoe nothing much happens except the canoe bobs too much--and your coach or steersman yells at you..

The Tahitian stroke is mostly about recovery and upper hand position. Once your blade is in place you should be able to rotate onto it as you choose. The Tahitian stroke--or parts of it, should get you blade back into position quickly and let you do all the things you need to do to get the most out of your catch.

Remember that a "Tahitian Stroke" is a conoe thing, what SUP paddlers are doing is adapting pieces of it, trying to get to a better stroke. Everything is still in flux, but I don't believe the stroke people will be teaching in ten years will look anything like a Hawaiian recovery.

A great number of the current elite paddlers are in the Tiger Woods conundrum--they are great at the sub-optimal stroke they have mastered. They can do what Tiger did, and take a bunch of steps backwards, throwing away at least a year and maybe more of being at or near the top. Or they can paddle on and eventually be eclipsed buy younger athletes who are just as fit, who have been coached to a better technique. Happens in every sport, and there is not a right choice. The young bucks coming up will run over the top of today's masters sooner or later. the calculus has to be "If I make these changes, how long will it knock me off the top, and how much longer will it prolong my game." Tough call.

 Annabel's a Kiwi Aussis are always nicking our stuff

[Bycyclist]

Very helpful discussion thanks all. One of the concepts from competitive shooting is economy of motion - minimizing wasted motion/effort for movement mechanics in various aspects, such as keeping gun up in "eye line" and closer to full extension. I'm seeing interesting parallels in minimizing recovery stroke movement, keeping top hand high, and maximizing blade in the water at the power phase. A lot to work on during tomorrow's session. Makes sense, thanks.

[pdxmike]

Is "unweighting the board" a real thing?  I know some people mention it occasionally, but many top paddlers never mention it.  It seems like it would be mentioned more if it were real and significant.


And if it is, how do you do it?

[breakbad]

Is "unweighting the board" a real thing?  I know some people mention it occasionally, but many top paddlers never mention it.  It seems like it would be mentioned more if it were real and significant.


And if it is, how do you do it?

Was going to ask the same thing. Outside having a salad instead of a cheeseburger, I really have no idea how to do this.

[hbsteve]

If you unweighted the board, doesn't that mean that you must also weight the board?
Seems like staying smooth would make the board move faster.