Maui SUP fatality

[StuBro]

Well said Bill.

This gets in my craw, as you can tell from my "War and Peace" posts.  I was up at Cultus Lake (remote, high mountain lake in Oregon) two years ago wake boarding with my brothers.  We then saw the Sheriff drop a boat and proceed to "pull over" 100% of the boats on the lake for "safety checks".  The mood at the takeout was pretty grim at the end of the day as being hassled by the Sheriff when you are trying have fun just sucks for lack of a better term.

When the Sheriff approached me and asked to board my boat, I politely declined.  When he insisted I asked him if the 4th Amendment somehow was suspended on water.  He responded that it was a routine "safety check."  I responded in turn that I was happy to look after my own safety.  He insisted so I asked him what he saw that presented a "safety hazard".  Of course he could not answer.  I think this could have gone on for an hour but I finally played my trump card and just told him I'm an attorney and that I would not let him board, search or further detain me.  He left but he was pissed and so was I.  I didn't see a single boat sink, nobody got hurt, and nobody drowned that day.  If there had been a problem, I'm fairly certain the fat-ass Sheriff would not have been able to assist in any manner at all.  This is all a crock of shit based on "health and safety" so the government can "regulate" us and basically grow their business.  Business is good lately for the government.  Please stick up for yourselves people.

[ObviousSup]

When the Sheriff approached me and asked to board my boat, I politely declined.  When he insisted I asked him if the 4th Amendment somehow was suspended on water.  He responded that it was a routine "safety check." 

It would be amusing to have he board my vessel to do a safety check 
Just cause I am curious what chances would a non attorney have to discourage a boarding for a "safety check"?

[pdxmike]

StuBro--I admire your approach.  But if I'd been out on a board instead of a boat, I might think the opposite way.  Assuming the Sheriff would ignore a board during his "safety inspections" I'd be tempted to say, "Hey, I'm a legally recognized vessel, too.  Why are you giving every other vessel the benefit of a free safety check but not me?  If you're boarding their vessels and inspecting them, you should board mine and inspect it". 

Seriously, though, I've met some of the County River Patrol Sheriffs and they're great here.  I do think that relationship could be tested, though, if their role shifted very far into "mommy state" territory--checking for permits, safety checks, etc....And my guess is that their view would also be that they'd rather concentrate on real safety issues rather than becoming compliance officers. 

[JC50]

Government regulation implies a level of competence that government employees rarely exhibit.

That's just plain bullshit and you know it. Plenty of hardworking, competent gov't employees doing their best with far less assets and benefits then private industry enjoys. How many private endeavors have you seen fail due to incompetent jackasses? Ain't no industry immune, brother.

That not a rap against people charged with public safety, it's a rap against the notion that the myriad of existing regulations and jurisdictions is understandable and that the people creating regulations have some sort of superior (or perhaps at least sufficient) knowledge. As the Coast Guard has amply demonstrated with their ridiculous and ineffective regulation that just ain't so.

This, I can somewhat agree with. But, don't leave out a significant population of lawyers who, through their greed and lust for unaccountability, have helped create such a fear of liability that forces organizations to create ridiculous and ineffective regulations to protect themselves. Public safety is often one of the first organizations to get sued in every incident.

[StuBro]

PDXMike,

I'm sure the Portland area law enforcement has their hands full with real issues.  Over in Central Oregon they seem to have a lot of free time on their hands.

I've lived in Bend, Oregon for around 14 collective years off and on and San Diego for 14 years off and on too with the balance in Hawaii.

Here's my stats:

My last year in Bend, I was pulled over 6 separate times for various crap, none of which resulted in a ticket.  I did have to fight the lack of proof of insurance (the card was expired and the officer verified it was in force but still gave me the ticket).

The whole time I've been in San Diego, I've never been pulled over by the police, EVER.

Every time the Bend Police Chief, who was in my Rotary Club, complained about his budget I told him he ought to fire half the police force and focus on actual policing of crime rather than rousting locals and tourists.  Funny, he never seemed to adopt my sage advice

I just read a story that some Sheriff in Montana is using a Predator Drone to police his area because he received some homeland security funds and that's what he thought he should get (I'll bet you anything that guy's big time into RC planes).  I also read that some counties in California are now putting an automatic 30 day hold on any car that was impounded for any reason, i.e. DUI, unregistered car, etc...  That's $1,500 in storage fees you are tagged with for no reason at all.  It's probably not even legal since it's not authorized by the statutes.  In DC they actually can arrest you for expired tags.  There was a sad story about a mom on her way to pick up her kid from school who was pulled over for expired tags, arrested, the kid in her car was placed in protective services and who knows what happened to the kid left at school.

I guess my point is that we have WAY TOO much BS law enforcement of petty issues that are really just hidden revenue generators.  If we are going this route as a Country then I wish we would just adopt the easy Mexican way of the "Mordita".  Sure, shake me down for some cash but don't mess my life up in the process.  It goes kind of like this: Me:  "Officer, can you please pay the judge for me as I'm very busy.  Here's $100."  Federale:  "Thank you señor, you are free to go now.  Drive carefully."  Ha Ha!

[JC50]

Well said Bill.

This gets in my craw, as you can tell from my "War and Peace" posts.  I was up at Cultus Lake (remote, high mountain lake in Oregon) two years ago wake boarding with my brothers.  We then saw the Sheriff drop a boat and proceed to "pull over" 100% of the boats on the lake for "safety checks".  The mood at the takeout was pretty grim at the end of the day as being hassled by the Sheriff when you are trying have fun just sucks for lack of a better term.

When the Sheriff approached me and asked to board my boat, I politely declined.  When he insisted I asked him if the 4th Amendment somehow was suspended on water.  He responded that it was a routine "safety check."  I responded in turn that I was happy to look after my own safety.  He insisted so I asked him what he saw that presented a "safety hazard".  Of course he could not answer.  I think this could have gone on for an hour but I finally played my trump card and just told him I'm an attorney and that I would not let him board, search or further detain me.  He left but he was pissed and so was I.  I didn't see a single boat sink, nobody got hurt, and nobody drowned that day.  If there had been a problem, I'm fairly certain the fat-ass Sheriff would not have been able to assist in any manner at all.  This is all a crock of shit based on "health and safety" so the government can "regulate" us and basically grow their business.  Business is good lately for the government.  Please stick up for yourselves people.

Careful amigo; ensure you know your State's laws before that assumption regardless of your profession.  In many States your boat can be boarded and inspected without PC, as well as you providing identification and licensing/registration. Either your State's boating laws are different than most, or that Sheriff just didn't know his law and criminal procedure (that's usually enough to send him away pissed off at himself...) In many States, your reactions above could have landed you a terminated voyage and possibly fines/court if violations were found (and it always seems they find something...like expired flares...now THAT's a piss poor management of manufacturers' ploy for repeat business)

In my experience, Fish&Game and Marine Patrol LEO's are a great bunch out working the environment and activities they themselves love and promote. As with any profession, the majority are great folks, with a few unreasonable jackasses....just an unavoidable fact of human society. A few times throughout the year, Federal and State organizations promote boating safety periods where OUI and boating safety are heavily enforced...this could have been your case, or you just may have been presented with a LEO from the minority...

Yes, stick up for yourselves and don't be meek, but know the law for activities you pursue and your experience with LEO's will be more tolerable.

[JC50]

I guess my point is that we have WAY TOO much BS law enforcement of petty issues that are really just hidden revenue generators.

This is something that has always annoyed my about local government; they look to the PD as a profit center...

Fines are just another way of trying to get compliance. If more LEO's would work on other ways to get that compliance, there'd be less fines, and town governments would not put pressure on PD's to maintain that funding stream. It's a vicious cycle that just doesn't make sense. Whatever happened to Policing?  Too many just think about law enforcement. I never liked that simpleton trend; it doesn't seem to beat crime either. Criminals will pay, pay, pay....just ask your defensive attorney buddies..

[PonoBill]

Government regulation implies a level of competence that government employees rarely exhibit.

That's just plain bullshit and you know it. Plenty of hardworking, competent gov't employees doing their best with far less assets and benefits then private industry enjoys. How many private endeavors have you seen fail due to incompetent jackasses? Ain't no industry immune, brother.

It's hardly bullshit. Regulation presumes superior knowledge of a situation. You're going to tell me the commandant of the coast guard knows anything at all about SUP and what would make people safe on them?  I doubt he had even SEEN one.

[StuBro]

JC50, I do know the laws in the States of Oregon and California regarding boating in non-international waters.  If you are a LEO like it sounds, then you know that even on the lake a LEO need reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed to stop the boat (Terry v. Ohio, US Supreme Court).  Then they need probable cause to actually search the boat.  Basically, if you have a valid registration and everyone has a pfd then there's no reasonable suspicion to stop the boat.  Plus, these safety inspections are pure bullshit pretexts to try to fine people for possession of pot or a BUI.  The LEO's have a way of acting menacing towards people to get their "consent" to the search.  Crap like, "Why won't you let me search the boat?  Do have something to hide?  Are you violating the law?"  This coming from the guy with the gun who is now dressed like a green beret with combat boots, and combat fatigues is pretty intimidating to your regular citizen.

Here's an excerpt from the California Boating Guide:

"OPERATIONAL LAW
Peace Officers
Every peace officer of the state, city, county, harbor district or other political subdivision of the state is empowered to enforce California boating law. These officers have the authority to stop and board any vessel where they have probable cause to believe that a violation of law exists.
Peace officers are also authorized to order the operator of an unsafe vessel to shore. Your vessel can be ordered to the nearest safe moorage if an unsafe condition is found that cannot be corrected on the spot and if the officer determines that continued operation would be dangerous.
Any vessel approaching, overtaking, being approached, or being overtaken by a moving law enforcement vessel operating with a siren or an illumi- nated blue light, or any vessel approaching a stationary law enforcement vessel displaying an illuminated blue light, shall:
■ Immediately slow to a speed sufficient to maintain steerage only.
■ Alter its course, within its ability, so as not to inhibit or interfere with
operation of the law enforcement vessel.
■ Proceed, unless otherwise directed by the law enforcement vessel operator, at the reduced speed until beyond the law enforcement vessel’s area of operation."

Trust me Amigo, it's not me that needs more education about this area of the law.  It's the LEO's themselves.  I suspect the academies these days are kind of glossing over this important part of our constitution or actually teaching LOEs how to circumvent it.   

[ObviousSup]

My last year in Bend, I was pulled over 6 separate times for various crap, none of which resulted in a ticket.  I did have to fight the lack of proof of insurance (the card was expired and the officer verified it was in force but still gave me the ticket).

The whole time I've been in San Diego, I've never been pulled over by the police, EVER.

Would I be right betting you drove a nondescript rig? Coming from a small coastal town I found the police tended to prefer pulling over out of town cars. Recognized locals would get pulled over only if if they were doing something really out of line. When I went to college and came home in a "new" car my first trip through town got me pulled over because some of the locals were trying to race me through the middle of town. I asked the LE why he didn't pull over the cat that was passing me as I went by him and he told me he knew who they were and would pull them over later. When he saw my local address on my license and registration he did a double take. I still got the $104 ticket though.
The first thing my dad does when he gets a new truck is to modify the front so it stands out and doesn't look like all the other white trucks going through town. Never has a problem even with a rather heavy foot.
I NEVER speed in small towns in Oregon. They supplement their income to much with ticket revenue.

[surf monkey]

Crazy thread

Started off sad someone died, not sure how.

Then people want more done to make it safer.

Then people pissed at the guys LEOs trying to enforce the laws to make it safer.

StuBro sounds like you know your law as far as I know as a boater no PC is needed for a boating safety inspection.

http://powerboat.about.com/od/safetyandeducation/ss/CoastGuardLaw_2.htm

[LaPerouseBay]

Crazy thread

Started off sad someone died, not sure how. /

Today I chatted with a friend that works at the outfit that rented the board to the guys family.  The victim's sons rented boards.  He took one out but didn't use a leash.  Poor guy couldn't swim, fell off and drowned, close to shore.
      

[StuBro]

Surf Monkey,

Thank you for bringing this thread back to neural and where it belongs.  I'm terribly sorry for the guy that flew to Maui for a great time and then ended up dead SUPing.  It's really sad for the friends and family; I've actually been there as a beach lifeguard and it sucks.

I realize now that my rants, and others' on this site, on law enforcement made me reluctantly realize  that we need some sort of common voice to promote our causes.  As much as I hate government intervention on these things,  I do know that it's better to self regulate than have the some government fat ass that's never seen a board govern us.

That being said, I nominate Bill Babcock (PonoBill) for the President of this organization.  Bill, I know we haven't met but my friends vouch for you plus you are passionate about the sport, a very good writer and, retired sort of.  I'll throw in the legal work for free plus $1,000.

I welcome all comments.

Greg

[beached]

The victim's sons rented boards.  He took one out but didn't use a leash.  Poor guy couldn't swim, fell off and drowned, close to shore.
      

though my condolences certainly go out to the family, i think the above stmts (if true) are proof positive that no amount of regulation or enforcements can stand in the way of Darwinism. Going out on a SUP when you cannot swim is pure insanity. i wouldn't get on a boat if i couldn't swim. Does anyone here think renters of SUPs are likely to even consider the question: can you swim? given these facts. i do not consider this an 'accident' at all...it sounds more like the logical consequences of a very, very stupid act.

[PonoBill]

Sorry, but I take the Pat Paulson stance: If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.

I think the rental companies may need to be more responsible, but I have to agree, that there isn't much anyone can do to legislate rationality. I was in the area of the accident yesterday--hundreds of people out with longboards and SUPs. Dozens of instructors pushing people into waves. On a safety scale of 1 to 10 I'd give it a nine. You kind of have to work at it to drown there. Hit by other boards, step on coral, get a little bashed up--easy. But if you can't swim and you go out with five-buck boogey board you're taking your life into incapable hands. 

That isn't to say that if you can swim, and take all the precautions possible, things don't happen. but the odds are a lot better.

This is only special to us because it happened on an SUP. I feel sad for the family. I can't imagine what the son is feeling. But if it happened with a boogie board or a blow up water toy we wouldn't be talking about it.