Messages

91

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / First attempts at behind-the-back wing pass tack

« on: August 03, 2020, 03:24:00 AM »

Or whatever it’s called. Of course the first of anything I complete standing up ain’t so pretty, but as always, it’s a start. Talk about a lot of releasing and regrabbing required in short order😮. It makes regular tacks feel like a cake walk in comparison (....and the pro’s make it look so easy). Anyway here’s a short clip in some gusty 4m conditions. Kinda proud of myself for staying on the new Veloce and not just going back to my trusty pro XL for trying new tricks. Pretty much no clue on proper technique or wing leash-to-waist-belt-setup.  I was trying to do the final regrab so quickly that on one attempt I seriously jammed/twisted my right middle two fingers on the boom,....and like a typical idiot, kept riding for another hour. A bit swollen this morning so I don’t  think I’ll be riding for the next few days, but I could use a break (and a bit stormy for the next day or so anyway). Too lazy to find it in all the footage but I‘m slowly getting the hang of the pump cadence of this mega glide wing and getting some longer luff-and -pump rides

92

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Gong Veloce XL review

« on: August 02, 2020, 01:13:49 AM »

Great review Dave,
You've tried just about everything in a front wing I'd be interested in. Do you use a smart watch with speed data, curious what average peak speeds would be while winging on this? True aspect ratio on the VXL appears to be around 5.8 making it roughly the same as the M1100 so the VXL is overall a much smaller wing. Can't speak to the thickness and volume as Moses doesn't provide.

You got me thinking on this speed thing and I just realized that this Veloce XL wing is 2mm thinner than that big ole 19mm Axis mast! Where you might expect overall drag to be dominated by the wing, with my current setup that “fat” untapered mast might contribute a higher percentage effect to drag of the total rig, reducing the top speed a bit.  All the more reason I’d like to switch my fuselage adapter scheme to the tapered carbon Moses masts I already own. In the grand scheme of things it probably wouldn’t make a big difference, but us ex engineering types love to tinker and feel our flying machines are performing at full potential.....

93

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Gong Veloce XL review

« on: August 01, 2020, 06:05:58 PM »

Can you post a pic of your axis mast adapter?
Thanks

i posted some pic’s and a brief in the  “Axis Foils” thread around page 15. Not sure how it ended up there......

94

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Gong Veloce XL review

« on: August 01, 2020, 05:37:35 PM »

Great review Dave! That Veloce looks sick for the wingding. Seems like Patrice may have found a nice formula somewhere between HA and Low Aspect. I am holding out for the Slingshot Phantasm range. I do have a 5'2" HIPE 110L paid for($833 shipped!) supposedly shipping on the 9th. Gong is an innovator and game changer in the rapidly changing wing world. Patrice is 2 steps ahead of a lot of designers. It really helps to watch him rip so hard on his product.  I wish Slingshot could crank out new products as fast as Gong.

speaking of Slingshot, one of their team riders just happened to be at our launch site the other day with what he described as a new prototype foil. Very high aspect in the 1200-1300 sq cm range, but it also had a lot of arc to it. Definitely an unusual shape.

I think the reason I like Patrice is that he seems to design in just the right balance of features without going too extreme in any one category. Plus he’s getting older. I figure he just like wings that are high performance but still easy to ride.

Great review Dave,
You've tried just about everything in a front wing I'd be interested in. Do you use a smart watch with speed data, curious what average peak speeds would be while winging on this? True aspect ratio on the VXL appears to be around 5.8 making it roughly the same as the M1100 so the VXL is overall a much smaller wing. Can't speak to the thickness and volume as Moses doesn't provide.

Sorry no GPS speed data yet, but I definitely want to try some speed runs assuming the grass doesn’t get too bad (always an issue this time of year). I did a quick and dirty caliper thickness measurement on the 1100 and got 2.5 cm thickness. That’s actually pretty thin for a 2100 sq cm foil, probably part of the reason that Dwight and superhumans like Balz Muller can get such high speeds from such a big foil.

Thx man, great review.

Your take on Gong designs being good for your skill level is likely very astute. When you read Patrice’s writing they talk a lot about getting people into the sport. Listening to pros can be amazing but not sure they represent what most people want to do or can. I’m betting this is what makes DW’s stuff universally loved by his riders for another example.

Can I ask why you’re keeping both if they are similar in size? Is the speed and turning different enough that you will use them in different conditions? I’m trying to plan a quiver and am curious if similar sizes of different series are a good idea over time. (Exactly what you are doing with Pro/Curve and Veloce XL)

To be honest I’m not sure what the heck I’m doing other than splurging (not my normal mindset ) to have some fun in testing out different wings to hone down on what I really like the best, and as you say for different conditions. So far all my riding is in flat water and I’m guessing things will change a bit in the ocean or with downwinders. I thought I would sell the ProXL as soon as I got the Moses 1100 and 790. I kitefoil with the Moses 633/483 and already have money invested in the 72cm and 82cm Moses surf masts. But that Gong proXL foil was just so easy to keep progressing with. I just sold the 790, but I feel like I want hang onto the 1100 at least for bit longer. At some point I will just say this is what works best and thin the others out.

Speaking of Gong and gearing towards newbies. I remember back when Alex Arguera was doing this promo video (I think at Big Winds?) introducing the GL foils. He had his team riders like 20 something superhuman Austin Kalama describing the wings while the audience questions were coming from old timers like me.

Oh, and that Slingshot rider I met the other day testing a new prototype foil. 20 something and all of maybe 130# and a pure prone surf background. Not one foot switch but he loved to pump....guess it’s all a matter of who is driving the foil development.

95

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Gong Veloce XL review

« on: August 01, 2020, 06:51:55 AM »

Way too long winded review so Cliff notes summary: I like it. I’m keepin it.

In typical Gong fashion my Veloce XL and Veloce 47cm stabilizer finally arrived after 3 weeks in transit from France for the bargain shipping price of 200€ (someone needs to convince Patrice to switch from LaPosta to DHL for overseas shipping but that’s another beat-to-death story.....).

Here are the specs on the VeloceXL:
Wingspan: 94 cm
Chord: 20 cm
Wingspan/chord ratio: 4.7
Thickness: 1.7 cm
Volume: 1.35L
Projected area: 1520 cm2
Extraordinary surface area: 1598 cm2
Perceived surface area: 1600 cm2
Weight of the wing in 94 cm: 1.2 kg

It’s not super high aspect but what I would call modest ha. It’s not extremely flat but it doesn’t have much arc either (projected 1520 versus 1600 actual). What makes it unique is thickness (volume). At 1.7cm it’s about half the thickness of a GL210. It’s volume is just 1.35 liters versus a smaller area Axis 1010 (1430 sq cm projected) at 1.73 liters. So it’s really thin! Probably among the thinnest production foils for its area.

My foil riding universe has been the Gong pro XL, Mose 1100 and 790, and some quick rides on the Axis 1020 and 1150. I’ll be blunt in my opinion,.....but it DOES NOT mean one wing is good and another bad, it just means what works best for me, kinda like boom versus handles.

First off Axis and Moses; fit and finish for both brands is absolutely top notch but I could not wrap my head around either the 1020 or the 1150. The 1020 seemed like the foil equivalent of big ole 140L board you want for the first 30 minutes of winging and then you want move on quickly.  The 1150 had amazing low end, pump and glide, but carvy turning was not it’s forte, it’s more of that flat slidey pivot turn you need to make happen with some extra leg work. The Moses 1100 has just a little more carvyness to it than the 1150 (banking in a turn) but it’s also in that “don’t over lean into the turn or I’ll get pissed off” feel. Of course the 1100 and 1150 are wiiiiide wings, so expecting them to be lean-in carvy is asking a bit too much. That being said Balz and Gunnar can rip on the 1100 (and I have generally gotten used to using it),  and I have no doubt there are people killing it on the 1150 and big GL wings........ Guess you just adapt to those flat turns. Oh and while the Moses 790 was very carvy with its much smaller wing span, it had a noticeably higher stall speed and was much less glidey,  so that much more likely to come off the foil during upwind transitions that aren’t perfect. I judge based on upwind stuff, not downwind stuff.

So that brings me to the Veloce XL. Based on my experience with the 1100 and 1150 I had ultra low expectations. I even chickened out my first chance to ride it, since there were a lot of spectators around. Finally rode it yesterday morning with no one in sight  in sorta light flukey 5m conditions, and yesterday afternoon in honking 4m conditions. All I can say is that Patrice must have some magical ability to design foil wings that fit my limited ability. It’s fast, ultra glidey, and very turny/carvy with a suprisingly low stall speed. It’s a wee bit more sensitive to pitch and roll control than my pro XL, but not by much at all. It responds great to both flat turning and lean-in carvy turns. This wing just loves to do this awesome glide on tacks (both heel and toeside). Definitely a different pump cadence to get used to. It hauls arse upwind with my Echo’s...... So, I didn’t finish my 360’s on the foil but, considering it was my first 60 min of riding a very new foil in flukey light winds it was still great.

So despite the Gong ordering hassles,  the crude fuselage, the way too spongy Al mast (and required mod to accept a stiff heavy 19mm Axis mast), the lack of inbewteen carbon mast sizes, I guess the crazy bearded Frenchman stills gets my nod of approval. My current go to foils are the pro XL and the Veloce XL.  I’ll keep the Moses 1100 for now.  Gonna try and have Jim Stringfellow fab a lightweight fuselage to adapt my Moses carbon  surf masts to the Gong wings. Then all will be right with the world…..except for wanting that 4’10” 70L FSM board.

The wife said something about some PITA Storm potentially headed up the sound on Monday.  Gonna mess up those SW thermals for a few days.

96

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Carving 360's

« on: July 29, 2020, 09:02:23 PM »

Nice Admin!
I tried my new Echo 4M wing yesterday for the first time.  My friend Jeff shot this blurry video on his phone of a pretty good 360 I pulled off where I rode backwinded for a bit.  I find it easier to pull off when I'm a bit underpowered and can turn through the wind quickly.  I find that dipping the wing tip into the water a bit as I'm turning helps tighten the turn and tips the wing into a good position.

Nice! Every good 360 has a sweet wing tip drag!  Not close to being the same, but it reminds me of the back roll hand drag down loop we’d do on a kiteboard. (Pretty soon a 360 will be the no brainer winging trick )

97

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Carving 360's

« on: July 28, 2020, 03:47:21 PM »

Awesome! One thing that is unique about the 360 is getting to do this really cool fast move without ever having to do the whole release-regrab routine with the wing.  Time to rig the camera or bribe the video assistant

98

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Armstrong HS 1850

« on: July 28, 2020, 02:59:14 PM »

I look at the specs on the 1850 and it really is pretty similar to my Gong XL pro. (I wish the other manufacturers would publish wing volumes like Axis and Gong). And I see a similar effect comparing the XL pro to my larger Moses 1100. I don’t give up that much low end but gain more carvability. Of course Gong fit and finish won’t come close to Armstrong but for the price difference you’d expect that.  The XL pro was ahead of its time in wing years......Been riding it since last November.

FWIW my goal is to have one front wing with a really wide speed range and great carvability. A nice high top speed for going into transitions, and a low stall speed for exiting transitions on the foil. I don’t need or want two different front wings for different wind ranges. I’ll use my 6m Echo for light winds and 3.3m for cranking winds all with that one wing size. That’s just my current opinion. Maybe it’ll change next week

99

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Lift Foils goes high aspect

« on: July 26, 2020, 02:59:54 AM »

So it’s sorta getting a bit exhausting for me chasing these foil wings around draining the wallet. I’m as guilty as anyone thinking I need to try (meaning buy and resell if I don’t like it) these different foils.

So far I’ve learned everything on one 8 month old well worn cheapy foil (Gong XL pro). Whether it’s underpowered on 6m Echo or fully powered on my 3.3m, it just seems to have that balance of high end, low end, carve and glide.  It’s just friggin easy to use and progress with. I own a Moses 1100 and 790. They’re nice and techy  light. The 1100 beats the XL pro in pumping and low end by just a teeny amount but I still go back to my XL pro for way better carving and the ability to improve my skills faster. Now I have some high strung Veloce’s on the way. Who knows if they will add something or not. Maybe the Lifts are magical solution, who knows.

I’m at that point where unless someone shows how they are suddenly achieving a much higher skill level, I’m asking why? Briefly tried an Axis 1150 the other day.  Sort of like my Moses 1100  only even more pump/glide oriented and even more “flat turn style”.  It’s sort of like a pumpers dream that reluctantly yields kicking and screaming when asked to get all carvy with a wing ding. The top level pro’s can ride almost anything and look 10 times better than any of us (no offense to anyone here).  Just a case of gear fatigue this morning.......(and why I like talking about building skill level on this forum way more than talking about gear!)

100

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Advanced Beginner Advice

« on: July 23, 2020, 10:49:58 PM »

Here I was flying around in what looks like Light Air.  It actually was 15 to 20.

Looks like perfect training conditions .  How did you get the shot? 

The way I see it every session is about learning/trying something. I like to think of it as the perpetual advanced beginner stage. Yesterday we were all on our small wings with 20-30 conditions. I was back to beginner status using my 3.3 Echo for the first time (first time I used anything under 4m). It was a wee bit strange the first few minutes but I slowly settled in with it and had a great time. Tacking into 30 mph winds in chop height that was  2/3rds the mast height with my “toy” wing was interesting!

101

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Learning to tack

« on: July 22, 2020, 05:01:48 AM »

  I can tack heelside to toeside no problem on land but on the water I'm still working on it, I find that the motion can be hard on my shoulder if the wing transition is not smooth.  Toeside to heelside tacks are just as easy as jibing for me now.

Same here on the on the shoulder irritation especially for the larger size wings. Plus it also is a wee bit harder for me to roll the new Echo’s on these heel-to-toeside tacks. What I’ve been doing is using my release hand to help push the wing over just before I regrab, and it seems to work for my old joints . Has to be a pretty fast hand/arm motion (release-push-grab). Don’t need to do the push at all on the toe-to-heelside. Like you said, as easy as jibing. When you nail a heel-to-toeside tack on the foil it feels great

102

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Learning to tack

« on: July 21, 2020, 09:57:41 PM »

And just think, you get start all over again doing the not-as-easy heel to toeside tack, and then of course you need to work on continuing both tacks into a continuous 360. Then you’ll have three different 360 options to keep yer brain spinning......

103

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Learning to tack

« on: July 20, 2020, 11:00:04 PM »

Finally pulled one off today.  Touched down but foiled away.  Very happy.  Thanks for all the advice.   It’s a pretty aggressive move bringing wing to other side. I was too cautious in the beginning.

cool! My first one was was plop down at zero speed, practically fall off, pump from scratch to get going in the other direction. Yours sounds way smoother .  On your way..

104

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Carving 360's

« on: July 20, 2020, 10:08:17 AM »

Nice, I can see it, I can feel it, now I just need to do it .

PS: I just noticed that you and Gunnar are going way more downwind before fully initiating than I had envisioned or tried.  That is really different than the windsurfing move.  I am stoked now for more flailing.

That extra downwind time gives you plenty of time pull the clew (back) of the wing through the eye of the wind smoothly with very little force on the wing and steadily build backwind pressure. If the downwind turn was really tight it would get whipped around really fast and likely knock you right off the board. Wings are much happier changing riding direction with the leading edge into the wind😀 Good luck!

105

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Carving 360's

« on: July 20, 2020, 12:24:55 AM »

That is a great step by step Dave.  Very helpful.  I was hoping that I might get by without tucking that low wingtip back but I am going to need to commit to it. Such a cool move!

. It is definitely a full commit move. If I hesitate for half a second I’m toast. One of those falls in the video was my standard “hesitation fall”.  At least my from experience the falls aren’t too scary, but then again I’m not up high on a 90+cm mast.....If you try it with one of your smaller Swing’s in more wind maybe the tip issue won’t be as great(?)

Yesterday I had a great session mixing in Some 360’s with other transitions with my 5m Echo and Gong pro XL.  It really is a cool sensation and even more cool when you combine it with your other bag-o-tricks, and your not falling every 5 seconds! Here is one unedited series I managed, even with the beach going onlooker’s making me a bit self conscious........I didn’t even have to speed up the video for time between transitions  .

Jibe to toe / tack toe to heel/ 360/ tack heel to toe/ tack toe to heel/ 360/ jibe to toe/ foot switch/ foot switch/jibe to heel