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Topics - peterwSUPr

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Hi I'm looking to get a wing and trying to figure out what to get. Zero wing experience but I windfoil and kitefoil. Here in Canada I won't use it till the spring.  I can get a 2020 model of something like the F-One Swing now.  I could wait till the winter or spring for a 2021, but last year things were hard to come by and some good brands might not be here in Canada till much later in the summer.  I could more easily get a new "knock-off" brand wing (without naming names, I'm referring to the wings from non-windsports companies who are all jumping in). 

Does anyone have an opinion on how a well-liked wing like the 2019/2020 F-One Swing would compare to some of the other less well known brands who are coming to market?  Is this the kind of thing where there are lots of fine details that get optimized through a lot of testing and windsport history, or can any company draw up a design, send the specs to China and come up with a decent 2021 model which is as good as the brand-name ones they were trying to copy and improve upon?


The Shape Shack / Slightly off topic- Windfoil board construction ?
« on: March 26, 2020, 04:03:46 PM »
Hi all, if anyone can point me to a better place to ask this question then please do.  I've built SUP's, surfboard,, kiteboards, paddles, hydrofoils etc, but I'm looking to build a windfoil board rather than ride a modified old board.  I know there are a lot of multi-sport board builders here so I thought I'd ask.

I'm wondering about the pros and cons of different constructions.  One option could be a lighter foam (maybe 1 lb?)  with a sandwich construction like on most windsurfers, or the other option would be a higher density EPS like on a SUP (1.5 to 2 lb?) and a bit more skin and no extra high density outer foam layer.  I actually have some bamboo veneer so a compsand method is also possible.   

For sure I know there would be reinforcement at the foil mount either way as well as some deck areas.  It seems to me that the board, something along the lines of a Slingshot Wizard 125L would not be getting jumped and crashed like a windsurf waveboard, and is more likely to be cruised and carved like some SUP foil boards.  BUT, the board would not be as short and thick as some SUP foil boards since it needs to have the forward sail mount and uphaul potential.

Does anyone have any great insights in this, or can anyone direct me to where I might find more info on this?


Gear Talk / Medium to Higher End Inflatable Performance on Flatwater
« on: November 17, 2019, 03:24:04 PM »
Hi, I'm being asked for some advice about inflatables and am not sure the answer.  My sister has a cheap Costco inflatable, 10'8" by 31" (possibly wider?).  I have two 14' carbon race boards that I have built, around 26.5" wide and fairly stable with relatively box rails.  Not surprisingly she tried my boards and liked them a lot more.

Because of the cottage terrain when they use boards they are still looking to stay with inflatables.  Any new board will only be paddled on a flat water lake, and never raced. 

So here's the question.  If my 14' boards are a 8 or 9 out of 10 for speed and glide, and if her tubby inflatable is about a 2 out of 10, how would other boards fit in?  I realize that there are lots of factors that affect this, so these answers will be educated guesses - but at least they are educated!

We found a good deal on a fairly pointed nose board at 12'6" by 29".  Any guesses how it might paddle in terms of speed and glide?

Also an NRS Escape 14' x 29" ?

Finally I found a used Starboard Airline 12'6 x 27" (2018).  I suspect it might be the fastest even though it is only 12'6".  I'm wondering however, how much less stable this might be if its rails are a bit rounder and if its a bit thicker too, since its almost the same width as my boards but probably rounder.

Any helpful thoughts on this?


Gear Talk / Pitfalls of a cheap i-SUP?
« on: May 24, 2016, 03:30:10 PM »
My sister is looking to get a SUP for occasional recreational use and at a cottage for a week each summer.  They have a dog which they will not be able to keep off it.  The board will never be surfed or raced or downwinded.  The water will be flat.   The shore it is launched from can be a bit rocky.  I suggested to her that the dog claws should not be an issue for an inflatable, and with it weighing just over half the weight of some big plastic tubs (their other possible option), might be easier for loading on (in) the car.  Did I mention they're not looking to spend a lot of money?

There are some fairly cheap inflatables at Costco.  But, what are the issues with those cheap inflatables?  Do they only handle a low pressure and flex like a noodle?  Do they weather and wear out?  Thin and easily punctured?   I know the saying "you get what you pay for", and I'm wondering what they'll be missing with a cheap board like this?

Also, is the time spent inflating it a hassle?  I've never had my hands on an inflatable. 


The Shape Shack / Final Finishing of Race Board
« on: June 09, 2015, 05:35:27 AM »
So, I have a board pretty much ready to paddle (in fact it's already been on the water for testing) but I'm not overly happy with the finish.  The plan is for a lightweight finish, but a solid colour, not brushed carbon, although some bits of carbon are being left exposed and glossy. I have used 2 part paint and a air sprayer in the past, but it's expensive, toxic and my sprayer is not the greatest.

So, for this one,  I've been using the "epoxy" "appliance" paint in rattle cans.  I had heard they were pretty good, but not so far for me.  I find that despite multiple coats it seems to show through the  fine texture of what's below, like if there is an area with microballoons and filler, it has a different texture or surface pores than if its over smooth resin or if any fibers have been sanded into slightly.  It's much worse than any other paint I've ever used before in that respect.  Or maybe it would be better with a clearcoat of it??

I guess life would be simpler if I just loaded on a pile of resin and hot coated it and sanded it all, but my record with fisheyes is not that great either.  Plus, on rails with thin carbon on it, the risk of sanding though things is high.   

Maybe about 25 years ago I was making a windsurfer and my dad set me up with some kind of primer that was grey and that you paint on quite thick with a brush.  You would then sand it with wet sandpaper, and about 95 to 99% of it would be taken off, but what's left would fill any slight imperfections.  The beauty of it was that it sanded so easily that you were using fine paper, not risking going through the one layer of carbon or even taking much of any of it off.  It sands WAY easier than any kind of resin and filler or autobody filler type stuff.

Has anyone used anything like this in modern times?  A quick look online and I did not find anything like this.  Or, any other suggestions or words of encouragement?


The Shape Shack / Deck Pad Question
« on: April 22, 2015, 11:43:17 AM »
Hi, I need a deck pad for a race board, and have a couple of questions.  Hydroturf has some which are multicolored, with black on the surface and brighter colored underneath so that they have a bright pinstripe look when the grooves are cut.  They warn that some colors will fade though.  If my board is stored upside down in the shade, can I assume that the colour won't face TOO fast?  I know I've seen some used on supuk's boards.

I'm also assuming that when right-side up since the board will be in the water, with water occasionally splashing over it, that black heating up is a non-issue.  Anyone have any experience otherwise?


The Shape Shack / Nose shape on an all-around 14' SUP
« on: August 19, 2014, 06:49:45 PM »
Hi everyone, greetings from a SUP wasteland where I rarely see any other boards other than wide slow surf-style boards.  I made my first SUP this spring, built basically for flatwater paddling on the river here where when its flat its flat (14' by 27" carbon).  But, other family members are showing some interest, so its time for board #2.  (just order more carbon today!)  I have been downwinding sometimes too, but not too much.  Typical downwind conditions I might have waves 1 to 2 feet maybe.  Any bigger than that and I'd be out kiting or windsurfing anyway.  On my current board I have to move back a lot to keep the nose out on waves.

I'd like to build something that still works for flatwater, with a long waterline, but which also is a little more biased to some small waves.  I've heard lots of people raving about the Naish Glide, and see that at least the older ones have a piercing nose, as well as a wider rockered nose on the upper half.  It's tough to tell in online pictures though, but I'm not sure if they are still doing that or if others do that too.  Is it a gimmick or is it the ticket to ride?  I have not seen others similar, but its so hard to tell just from pictures.

On the other hand, it seems that when water is streaming over the front of the board the nose is not often more than an inch or 2 under water.  Maybe I'm just as well off to add an inch of rocker, and add maybe an inch of height to the nose.  Now that I think about it, am I better to add the rocker to the nose or to the tail, to achieve this?  And, does anyone have any thoughts about whether adding this rocker should be a gradual thing over the whole board, or more curvature in the mid section as opposed to further out at the ends?


The Shape Shack / Paddle shaft constrution and flex
« on: June 26, 2014, 07:23:12 AM »
Hi, I'm not sure how many folks out there have been making many paddles, but I thought I'd bounce this off the crew to see if anyone has any insights. 

The first paddle I made had a carbon shaft made around a copper pipe, 28mm (1.1") diameter.  I started with a wrap of 4oz E-glass to make sure I could get it off the pipe, and then once cracked loose, I added carbon from there.  I was using the 24K carbon tow, and all layers were done with strips right next to each other in a single layer.  I did 2 lengthwise layers, plus a spiral wrap at almost 90 degrees to the axis of the shaft, to help with the structural strength of the cross-section (using 110g of carbon tow off the roll - I think).  I then added a single layer of 5.9oz twill carbon cloth on the outside.  I used 3M super 77 adhesive to stick the final carbon cloth to the shaft before wetting it out and then wrapping with VHS tape, and was very happy with the final look and finish.  I ended up with a nice light paddle around 520g (I think the shaft was in the 300g range), and the shaft is pretty stiff, stiffer than the few commercial paddles I have tried.

So, for paddle #2, I'm not looking to build a noodle, but would like to add a bit more flex.  My final outside shaft diameter is a touch bigger than most (32mm), but I'm sticking with it at least for now, since #2 is started, and I don't know what other mandrel options are easy to get and nice and round and smooth like the copper pipe I have.  Maybe making a nice tapered oval shaft mandrel is a subject for another thread!  I don't think I want any less total material in the shaft, since the weight is right and it has to be strong.  I also was thinking that going to fibreglass or S-glass is too big a step with too much different material properties, and that I'd ideally like to just tweak the fiber angles of the carbon.

I think the logical next step is a shallow angle spiral instead of running the tow straight along the shaft.  I'd also like to not do the 90 degree spiral wrap if I can avoid it, a long wrap like that was actually a pain, since it was hard to keep the tow from sometimes not having a kink or fold when coming off the roll, but when cutting 6 foot lengths they could be smoothed out nice and straight before applying them.  The question is, how much of an angle do I do the spiral wrap at instead of running it parallel?  I know there is no magical number, and everyone's results may vary, depending on all kinds of other factors, but all other things being equal, will a 20 degree angle of the spiral wrap make a small difference or big difference compare to along a straight line?  Anyone have any experience along these lines?   

I'm hoping for lots of answers from lots of folks who have been here before, but based on the posts I found in the archives, I'm not holding my breath....


The Shape Shack / Carbon layup on race board
« on: May 03, 2014, 02:08:24 PM »
Hi all, the board is shaped and ready for cloth, but it turned out when I weighed the foam I got and did some calculations that what I have is more like 1.7lb foam, so my blank is a bit heavier and probably tougher than many blanks.  My original plan was a layer of 6oz carbon and a 4oz E over that, plus extra at the deck.  Does this still sound reasonable given my foam specs?  I have toyed with a single layer of carbon on the bottom (with rails doubled though), but wonder if that would be too brittle in terms of dings, plus I'm wondering if a single layer like that is harder to seal in terms of pinholes, and whether the finer 4oz cloth really helps to close things up.  Suggestions?  I'm pretty good at treating boards carefully, but don't want an eggshell.

I have to say the shaping was quite fun  (first SUP!).  I've shaped lots of boards over the years, but I did lots of diagonal and shallow cuts with the hotwire, since this board has more flat surfaces than most boards.  Totally different than other shaping.


The Shape Shack / Nichrome wire gauge for hotwire?
« on: April 11, 2014, 06:36:50 PM »
Hi, I have a couple hotwires from non-SUP projects, but it looks like the width I'm going to be cutting for my board is pushing the limits of my hotwire.  My wire setup currently uses a battery charger with 12V, set to 2A.  I have 2 different types of wire that I got a long time ago.  One is nichrome I think, the other stuff is a mystery.   I see lots of different sizes of nichrome wire on ebay for quite cheap.  Anyone know, with my power setup, what my best wire size might be for EPS (cutting a 27" block)?  I'm guessing 28 or 30 gauge or so, but am open to suggestions.


The Shape Shack / Rail Shape for a flatwater race board?
« on: March 26, 2014, 06:33:20 PM »
Hi everyone, I am building a 14 carbon race board which will be paddled mostly for fun, and in a few rec races.  Most of my paddling is done on glass or almost glass from my back yard.  I can get in a few downwinders with small wind waves on the river, like maybe a foot to 18 at the most.  I dont plan to paddle a lot in wind because I windsurf and kiteboard a lot, and we dont get as much wind as Id like as it is.  Im definitely looking for something that will use the full 14 waterline with just the right rocker for my weight.  Not ideal for downwinders, but Im OK with that.

Anyway, Ive got my outline and rocker pretty much figured out, but am not quite sure about rail shapes.  There is very little supping going on around where I live, so I dont ever get to see all the different boards that are on the market.   Its also tough to get rail shapes out of most top-view online pictures.   Im just wondering, are boards like I describe still going with pretty boxy rails with vertical sidewalls?  (Im referring to the front of the board and know rails get harder at the tail)

Based on another recent discussion with the group, I think it is clear that for a given width, there is more stability in a boxy rail than in a round rail, so there is max flotation as far out from the centerline as possible.  But, would there be other benefits from being slightly wider and more round?  A friend was pointing out to me that race canoes and kayaks are not boxy, so I wonder why were different?  They certainly are more tippy too.

Im not looking to try to re-invent the wheel, and assume the big board companies have done more R&D than I have, so while explanations and theories are certainly interesting, Id be interested to know what current boards on the market like Im describing are looking like these days.  Anyone seeing what the latest of these boards look like?

Thanks, Peter

p.s. ice thicknesses are currently in the 20 to 40 inch range in my parts, so I have a bit of time to think about this!

The Shape Shack / Finishing a 14' race board
« on: September 19, 2013, 10:07:29 AM »
Hi, just joined after lurking for quite a while.  Ive been building windsurfers since I was a teenager in the 80s and kiteboards since 2000.  My most recent board was a 61 kite surfboard with EPS and bamboo veneer top and bottom.  I am thinking about making a 14 race board my first SUP build.  I might do a couple rec races a year, but mostly just paddle from my house, but would like to make the board nice and light and fast.

The thing Im looking forward to the least on this build is the final finishing.  On all the lightweight vacuum bagged windsurfers I made I ended up doing lots of filling and sanding after glassing, using lightweight filler, and then paint it pretty bland looking (white) after filling, usually with a OK but not great looking spraying skill. 

I suspect that this method might be the lightest finish, but have to say that the painted rails (on the foam) and bamboo finish on my recent kiteboard look pretty decent with a lot less work.  The question is, does anyone have any idea how much difference it makes just flowing resin into the surface, versus filling sanding and painting after?  Will I notice the board being heavy if I go the traditional surfboard gloss resin finish versus filling and painting after?  I have enough bamboo to do the deck of the SUP, and I think it can replace one glass layer.  Or is bamboo too flexy to replace one 6oz E layer on the deck when board stiffness is an issue?

Thanks for all the great info on this forum, looking forward to more!


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