Rand's thread of fastest for downwind generated some great discussion and stoke for the downwind side of the sport but I don't think we ever got any kind of an answer.
What are the fastest boards out there? Take all the race boards we've seen. Put them on glass with the same paddler applying the same stroke, what board is going to go fastest? Do we know?
What are the fastest non race boards? A lot of us (including me) are likely to race in that kind of class at least until we can save the change for something sleek and shiny.
I don't know, but I sure am having fun testing. :) Conditions are a major factor in the speed equation as is paddle choice. I have been using the QB Peahi-great for deep pulls to get into that must make swell, but a bit catchy on the release, and the Werner- not as powerful, but smooth release.
When I look at race results all I see is F15s in the front. Is that just because there's a lot of them out there or do the dominate.
Quote from: PonoBill on August 04, 2008, 09:09:25 PM
When I look at race results all I see is F15s in the front. Is that just because there's a lot of them out there or do the dominate.
Which ones are the F15?
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: stoneaxe on August 04, 2008, 08:15:17 PM
What are the fastest boards out there? Take all the race boards we've seen. Put them on glass with the same paddler applying the same stroke, what board is going to go fastest? Do we know?
The one with Laird Hamilton or Dave Kalama on it.. ;D
DJ
So far from what I can tell...........it depends on the day.
Small variations in surface conditions (in swell direction, size, chop from wind, chop induced by current) makes a huge difference in the "right" board required.
I still think the speed is 90% paddler (stroke, wave knowledge, route knowledge). But if the paddler matches up with the right board for the given conditions that perfect 100% will be attained.
So a good paddler on slow board could easily be faster than an average paddler on the ultimate board.
Quote from: PonoBill on August 04, 2008, 09:09:25 PM
When I look at race results all I see is F15s in the front. Is that just because there's a lot of them out there or do the dominate.
Hi Bill,
If you meant the F-16, I think this may have been the first readily available racing option, at least in Hawaii. As you know, those guys spent a lot of time developing it and refining it. Then people started to win downwinders and crossings on it. Enter a new group of participants to this side of the sport. When they are ready to get a full blown race board, there is probably an F-16 that they can try...and when they do it will feeel very fast. To ease their mind about such a big purchase, it has a pedigree. It is kind of relaxing to know,
well, if I am slow, its just me. Some of the other current F variations seem to be for those that have an F-16 and are refining from that shape for their own size, preferences or maybe a specific race condition.
Quote from: DavidJohn on August 05, 2008, 12:34:52 AM
The one with Laird Hamilton or Dave Kalama on it.. ;D
That is true, true, true.
But, and it is a big but, I can't think of anyone who works more with their gear. How many pictures of these guys do you see with them riding the same board?
It is not what makes them fast, but it seems that they are always looking to be faster.
The real question is what do you want to do? Hawaiian downwinders are not like our conditions on the mainland. Are there specific events you aim to paddle in or do you just want to go from point A to point B when conditions permit? The sport is very new to the east coast, and I don't think you can count on a downwind race unless you have a holding period and pray for a nor'easter. Here in southern California we have 20+ SUP races a year and only two are downwinders.
There's no doubt F16s fly downhill but the playing field evens out if conditions are otherwise. For our waters I think we need a more displacement-type hull that can glide in the flats, have stability in the cross chop/snotty conditions we know so well, and still catch bumps well in a downwind run. From the Maui race pix, I don't think the F18 was made for that kind of racing, but props to the paddler as he obviously could handle the conditions.
I think we'll be seeing a lot of interesting boards for the mainland 12'6" stock class, and they'll be pretty fun to surf and easier on the wallet too. C4, Jimmy Lewis and Naish already have production boards in that range available, and there's several shapers doing their own take on that design. Also, if you're inclined to DIY it's a lot less intimidating than shaping and glassing an 18'piece of foam.
I actually mixed two questions in the start of this thread. I realize the real world racing throws variables that might change the "best" board for the day. I should have left the second half out. From a purely engineering standpoint.....test track data kind of stuff....same power applied, same conditions.....which board is fastest? I know that Starboard has posted times for the point GPS tested in flat, calm conditions. Not sure what that translates to though in the real world.
You've mixed it up more than that. You start out asking about downwind but then you want to "put them on glass" ?? Glassy as in calm water or glass as a metaphor?
Downwind - I don't have enough experience to comment.
Glass? Lotsa very fast boards out here, but it's really the motor - not the board.
I think you need to hand this question over to Pono Bill for further research.
Yeah...you're right I do have it pretty screwed up. It probably doesn't matter anyway....its all so subjective/variable that anything done in lab like conditions only has meaning there. Won't matter when the swell goes from 4' to 6' with a longer period and the rider is shorter and stockier, yada,yada....
Hehe...I will ask Bill...probably best if we have a few beers 1st though. We're carb loading tonight so it'll be a good opportunity.
Quote from: capobeachboy on August 07, 2008, 09:11:37 PM
Downwind - I don't have enough experience to comment.
Glass? Lotsa very fast boards out here, but it's really the motor - not the board.
Add in our local races that start as swell riding downwiders, but often end in flat water. We have been doing Maliko runs in 25 MPH winds all week (little fun mock races with each other), and the order sure can change when we hit the harbor ( 7+/- minutes of flat water grinding). The board that seemed faster in the open may struggle in the flats. I know of a few members here who are thinking about seperate south shore boards, because the Maliko run is such a different deal.
I would definately talk to the guys in your area that are into it ahead of you, and if possible get some rides on their boards. If there are none, talk to shapers about your conditions.
It's important to note, the top guys, (Kalama, Trudon, Cadiz, Riggs) all do a LOT of R&D. I think Scott said he went thru 4-5 boards last year before coming up with what they had in Molokai.
I personally don't think anyone will ever be able to compete with guys like this due to this, AND the fact the Maui has the best and most consistent, and most convenient practice course. Nothing comes close.
Coming from Kona this is a bit depressing to say the least!!!
Hey guys, I may be only new to this site but I'm gonna throw the cat amongst the pidgeons here! I don't hold much to this 90% paddler 10% board theory. With all due respect you put Laird or Dave Kalama on a 12' and even an average but competent paddler on a good 18' and the guy on the 18' will flog them every single time. I also feel that too much emphasis is being placed on all this different boards for varying conditions stuff as well. My boards fly in the face of convention and I have vastly different opinions on downwind design as to what is currently considered the norm but what a boring old place the world would be if we all thought the same and we'd grow stale and never get anywhere! The cornerstone of my designs is resistance or rather lack of. The board with the least resistance will paddle quicker, thereby picking up runners easier and staying on them longer and let's face it, who wants to paddle when you can ride! This is why I firmly believe that planing hulls are not the way to go. Even in your ideal Hawaiian conditions you are probably only riding swells maybe 10 to 15% of the time and this is the only time that a planing hull is working to it's optimum. So for the remaining 85 to 90% of the time you are dragging an inefficient hull around the ocean. In my opinion what you are after is a board that disturbs the least amount of water with the longest narrowest footprint as is practically possible with the least wetted surface area (which equates to drag) that you can manage. This is what my Penetrator designs are based on. Their low resistance hulls will glide through the water requiring minimal energy to power them hence picking up even the slightest of runners and staying on them longer due to this low energy requirement and there you are, riding as opposed to paddling, much better fun! Anyway that is where my boards are at. Those of you who are down our way early next year for the Noosa Festival will see them in action and have the chance to have a demo ride on what I am positive are the fastest ocean going sups in the world otherwise you'll have to wait another 12 months till my buddy and chief test pilot Woogie Marsh shows the world what the Penetrator 572 is capable of when he hopefully wins Molokai! Stay tuned and thankyou for reading.........Stuey Campbell
That's a helluva gauntlet to throw down Stuey. Can't wait to see how it works out.
I don't know who erased my former comment but ... :o Lets not get ahead of ourselves there buddy.
QuoteI don't know who erased my former comment but...
Treestand,
I do erase posts with insults. It rarely comes up here, but there is really no need for that, and in any event it doesn't further the conversation.
You can make your point without the jab. If you think that Laird for instance on a 12 foot...oh, say...Laird board would smoke an average solid paddler on an 18 foot light weight downwider race board then make your case to Stuey. I am sure he will be intersted in your comments.
"That's a helluva gauntlet to throw down Stuey. Can't wait to see how it works out."
It has been my observation that in all ocean related activties when the Australians throw down a gauntlet - good things happen! And not just for Australia - for everybody.
Then again the Maui boys (and girls) are coming up with great new stuff every week. Who knows what the hot guys come next Molokai. It might be called stand up but it is hardly standing still!
Quote from: Tree Stand on October 06, 2008, 06:44:30 PM
I don't know who erased my former comment but ... :o Lets not get ahead of ourselves there buddy.
Little bit touchy there Tree Stand. I merely stated my opinion, you obviously have yours. I'm home having lunch and thought I would check if I'd had any response. I have to get back to work as I'm busy putting the finishing touches on a new and much simplified steering system I've designed for downwinders, more specifically for my as yet unbeaten Penetrator. I'm sorry if my post offended you or anyone else for that matter, it was never my intention and I will further quantify my opinions when I get home tonight. For the record I've been shaping ocean equipment for 35 years and have roughly 20,000 boards under the belt, furthermore I've been building extremely fast racing yachts on and off for the past 25 years, if you think my opinions deserve insults then my e-mail address, unlike yours, is displayed. Go for your life..........buddy
Well said Kaweeka. That was my point. I think we'll all be benefactors of some friendly competition. The fact that Stuey speaks with such confidence makes it all the more interesting. Like I said. I can't wait to see how it works out.
Stuey...is the Penetrator a displacement hull the full length? How stable is she? My biggest problem is a need for stability. I'm not in a position to pull the trigger on a distance board yet but i'm collecting info for that day.
I also agree with Kaweeka and Stoneaxe. Consumers always benefit from competition. I think as more shapers start putting out downwind-specific boards, it'll push this sport to a higher level. It'll be interesting to see where downwind racing goes as shapers start introducing new shapes and ideas. This downwind/racing aspect of the sport is so new that I think it's unrealistic to say that the fastest boards have already been designed. I think as shapers from all different parts of the world get involved with this, we'll really see this sport explode. It'll also be fun to see the friendly rivalries form between paddlers/shapers from different continents/countries. Of course, being from Hawaii, I'm most interested in seeing what guys like Mark Raaphorst, Bill Foote, Ed Angulo, the C4 guys etc. will come up with as the level of competition increases. I'm sure we're going to see some mind blowing things.
Oh and for what it's worth, I still don't think an average or competant paddler on an 18' board could beat somebody like Dave Kalama on a 12' board. Some paddlers are just on an entirely different level than the rest of us. :P
Thanks Admin.
Your efforts are what allow key industry people to participate in this forum.
As opposed to the poorly moderated kiteforum, where designers and key people are not able to post, or they are attacked and insulted.
In the early years of the kitesurfing, all the designers and key people participated in sharing knowledge on the forum. Those were some fun times. Like THIS forum is now.
Quote from: stoneaxe on October 06, 2008, 09:59:45 PM
Well said Kaweeka. That was my point. I think we'll all be benefactors of some friendly competition. The fact that Stuey speaks with such confidence makes it all the more interesting. Like I said. I can't wait to see how it works out.
Stuey...is the Penetrator a displacement hull the full length? How stable is she? My biggest problem is a need for stability. I'm not in a position to pull the trigger on a distance board yet but i'm collecting info for that day.
Thanks Stoneaxe. Yes the Penetrator models are all displacement hulls for their entire length. Yes the Penetrator is very stable but in a different way. With a flat bottom and more traditional rail the maximum righting moment is in the bolt upright position, once the rail is submerged that righting moment decreases. However with the Penetrator setup the bottom and rails are the reverse of a surfboard, the bottom is rounded and the bulk of the rails' volume is at the top, therefore in the upright position she feels a bit tippy. What happens though is the further you lean the board over the more the righting moment increases, just when you need it, hey! Another benefit of my design is that with a regular flat bottom and rails your entire width is in the water all the time (more wetted surface area) whereas the Penetrator which is only 26 1/2" wide anyway, once you take into account it's reverse shape rails, it's actual footprint is only 22'' and at 18'8'' that's one narrow planshape! "That's a helluva gauntlet to throw down" you've all said. Well picture the above craft with my test-pilot Woogie Marsh on board (who you yourselves have described as Australias' best Sup racer and who incidently has 2 Molokai 6-man titles to his credit). Is it any wonder I feel a little confident of his chances? For a little peek at the Penetrator 572s' test flight, have a look at the vid my son made, it's under, Best Paddle Stroke I Have Seen, in your forums..........Cheers Stoneaxe and I hope that money comes together for you so you can get a downwinder soon. A big thankyou to Admin and Kaweeka as well, I will continue to post here!........Stuey Campbell.......P.S. Once again I meant no disrespect whatsoever to either Dave Kalama or Laird Hamilton who is without question the greatest waterman the world has ever or is ever likely to see!
I wasn't attacking anyone just pointing out the fact that an average paddler is not going to be able to keep up with a world class athelete no matter what they're on. I'm glad everyone is so nice to each other here, too bad this isn't the case in reality in the lineup... :o It must be because I am a New Englander or something but we are all born with a BS detector up here.
QuoteEven in your ideal Hawaiian conditions you are probably only riding swells maybe 10 to 15% of the time
Hi Stuey,
Good discussion.
It may be a good idea to knock around what we are mean when we are saying riding swells. My guess is that guys like Dave Kalama, doing 8.5 MPH (OK, its only Dave) over a 9.5 mile course are gliding just short of the whole time. That doesn't mean he's not paddling, but just that he is in glides. It seems like matching board speed to swell speed, and then occasionally being able to burst to get the next one is pretty crucial for our local runs. To me it feels like the time between glides is where all the work is done and most of the time is lost. At that point light weight feels like as big a factor as longer length. It seems like for each person you get to a point where you are just carrying more board without easing that nasty in between period any more.
In a video that was posted here a while back, Brian K from C4 was talking about gliding 85% of the time on a good run.
I always appreciate a contrasting view. What do you think?
Quote from: Tree Stand on October 07, 2008, 08:02:13 AM
I wasn't attacking anyone just pointing out the fact that an average paddler is not going to be able to keep up with a world class athelete no matter what they're on. I'm glad everyone is so nice to each other here, too bad this isn't the case in reality in the lineup... :o It must be because I am a New Englander or something but we are all born with a BS detector up here.
Amen in the house.
Aloha
Byron
P.S. The penetrator looks good and good luck with the Molokai.
In favor of displacement type hulls, prone or knee paddleboarders all use them and they are damn fast. why would someone like Mitchell who constanly wins the Molokai (also on Aussie "Infront" boards) use displacement if it did not work ?
Quote from: Tree Stand on October 07, 2008, 08:02:13 AM
I wasn't attacking anyone just pointing out the fact that an average paddler is not going to be able to keep up with a world class athelete no matter what they're on. I'm glad everyone is so nice to each other here, too bad this isn't the case in reality in the lineup... :o It must be because I am a New Englander or something but we are all born with a BS detector up here.
You did attack me Tree Stand, or do you consider posting abusive comments behind the safety of the net, good form and what's this BS detector now? Grow up...........
OK only one way to resolve this. Stuey ship me a board, I will throw it on the top of the truck, catch the SuperFerry over to Kahului, and see if the boys will let me race them. Will film the whole event for a segment of Funniest Home Videos ::) and then carefully store the board under the house for Woogie to use when he ventures up. Say I know a waveski builder in Oz named Wookie - where do you guys get these names from? ;D
And let's all take a step back, drink a cold beer, and enjoy a sport where you really do not have to deal with pond scum of society unless of course you want too . . . So many good breaks in out of the way places you can get to and when the surf is a bunch of blown out junk you hop on your downwind special and a crowded line up is the last thing on your mind. When I paddle past the unsmiling ones at Tongg's after a smoking downwind run (as they wait for their 2 foot slop to come through . . . ) - well it just makes me smile!
Stuey.....
BS detector is aka. bull shit. This is used when someone makes a claim that is far from being true and proven. Please don't take it personally because life is too short to internalize comments. ;D
I don't have a BS detector but I have a BS flag and mine went up when you claimed that your penetrator with an average rider could beat a world class athlete like Kalama on an ordinary board. The reason my BS flag went up is because I have seen him in action and there is no way he (Kalama) would lose to the average joe on your penetrator unless it had a motor or Kalama had lost an arm. Don't get me wrong or get excited about my comments. I really think your board is a piece of art but when you make claims in life you need to back them up. Yes you have all the experience and expertise in board building but until I see actual results (I am visual) I will not believe the statement. This is in no way an attack at you but just an observation based on your claim.
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: Byronmaui on October 07, 2008, 03:14:17 PM
Stuey.....
BS detector is aka. bull shit. This is used when someone makes a claim that is far from being true and proven. Please don't take it personally because life is too short to internalize comments. ;D
I don't have a BS detector but I have a BS flag and mine went up when you claimed that your penetrator with an average rider could beat a world class athlete like Kalama on an ordinary board. The reason my BS flag went up is because I have seen him in action and there is no way he (Kalama) would lose to the average joe on your penetrator unless it had a motor or Kalama had lost an arm. Don't get me wrong or get excited about my comments. I really think your board is a piece of art but when you make claims in life you need to back them up. Yes you have all the experience and expertise in board building but until I see actual results (I am visual) I will not believe the statement. This is in no way an attack at you but just an observation based on your claim.
Aloha
Byron
This is the last reply I make to you Tree Stand. I know what B.S. means I'm not an idiot. It's you who have no Idea of the value of waterline length. I never said or meant an average Joe. It was a competent paddler on a good 18' and I'll stand by my claim. A 12' against an 18', 6 feet is an aweful lot of waterline length. Now that's the last this site will hear from me. The Penetrator 572 will do the talking from now on.............Later, Buddy
Quote from: stuey c on October 07, 2008, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: Byronmaui on October 07, 2008, 03:14:17 PM
Stuey.....
BS detector is aka. bull shit. This is used when someone makes a claim that is far from being true and proven. Please don't take it personally because life is too short to internalize comments. ;D
I don't have a BS detector but I have a BS flag and mine went up when you claimed that your penetrator with an average rider could beat a world class athlete like Kalama on an ordinary board. The reason my BS flag went up is because I have seen him in action and there is no way he (Kalama) would lose to the average joe on your penetrator unless it had a motor or Kalama had lost an arm. Don't get me wrong or get excited about my comments. I really think your board is a piece of art but when you make claims in life you need to back them up. Yes you have all the experience and expertise in board building but until I see actual results (I am visual) I will not believe the statement. This is in no way an attack at you but just an observation based on your claim.
Aloha
Byron
This is the last reply I make to you Tree Stand. I know what B.S. means I'm not an idiot. It's you who have no Idea of the value of waterline length. I never said or meant an average Joe. It was a competent paddler on a good 18' and I'll stand by my claim. A 12' against an 18', 6 feet is an aweful lot of waterline length. Now that's the last this site will hear from me. The Penetrator 572 will do the talking from now on.............Later, Buddy
Stuey
I made this comment not Treestand. I thought forums were for open discussions. ::) Let's not get excited here.
Stuey how about this.....If you get your board here for the Molokai thing I will put up
money to get this board to Maui to do a race aginst a top paddler. I will find a
competent paddler to race against a top paddler on a standard 12'6. If there is any
damage I will pay for the board? How does this sound?
Please understand that you threw out the gauntlet with your claim and let's put the penetrator to the test. In no way this is a
slander towards you or your board just a test to see if your statement is correct about this board. I am willing how about you?
Aloha
Byron
P.S. To make this test valid we can do a couple of tests in varying conditions.
I'll throw in a couple bucks too.
Not to stir things up any more, but there are two important elements in this conversation that might be causing misunderstandings and the resultant ire. Bottom line, I think you're both right.
First, waterline length determines the non-planing maximum speed of a craft. that's not speculation, it's fundamental. A God-like paddler can't make a twelve foot board go as fast as a 18 foot board as long as it's being paddled by someone competent and there's no significant swell. that's just physics. Maximum hull speed is a function of waterline length.
But Dave Kalama routinely goes much faster than the non-planing speed of his boards, in fact looking at the numbers from some recent races he has AVERAGED nearly 1.5 times the maximum hull speed. How does he do it? By riding swells and planing for long distances. He's the master of it. Many Hawaiian races are run in a downwind condition with a following swell.
A great paddler in flatwater can hold their craft close to hull speed for the entire time they race. It takes nearly twice as much energy for a hull to go from 90 percent hull speed to 95 percent. So a 12 foot hull with a max speed of 5 MPH (nautical) might be paddled at 95 percent for ten miles by someone really great--about 4.8 MPH. While a 18 foot with a max speed of 8 MPH would be paddled at 70 percent by a competent paddler: 5.6 MPH. That's why there are different classes for 12 foot stockers and unlimited hulls.
Dave Kalama is about as great as they come. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't bet against Dave if I was on an F16 and he was on a rubber ducky. But I think you guys are talking about two different things.
I volunteer for the competent paddler gig.... ;D...well...that might be stretching it a bit...adequate maybe... ;)
Well it sure looks fast.. ;D
DJ
(http://api.ning.com/files/-00x78ecD9mPcMcC*7KBr1Y3zn8GDItfabo4noJRnWFJbRQ7vysteSGJFwnalbrmywOl*uuanm2LzJtRSyfjnPAOyOmztovv/Penetrator5723.JPG?transform=rotate(90)&width=449&height=600)
Bill yes physics plays a part but the bigger factor is a highly tuned athlete will eat up a competent paddler. Flatwater or not.
DJ I think the board is awesome I just don't buy into the claim. I have nothing against Stuey and would love for Stuey to accept my offer. If anything just to prove me wrong. Again so no one gets excited this is not an attack just an offer.
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: Byronmaui on October 07, 2008, 08:49:07 PM
Bill yes physics plays a part but the bigger factor is a highly tuned athlete will eat up a competent paddler. Flatwater or not.
On similar boards, yes, on dissimilar boards with swells to surf and plane, yes, on lumpy water where balance and experience is a factor, yes, on flat water with a significant difference in length, the hull is just too limiting.
I know this sounds whacky, but it's a well-known limitation in EVERY paddle sport and non-planing sail competition. Longer boats are faster than shorter boats. It's why you don't have competitions between different length boats or boards--they are pointless. The formula has been understood since the early 1600's: Maximum hull speed in knots = 1.34 times the square root of the waterline in feet. That maximum hull speed is not a suggestion or an approximation--it's absolute. You CAN'T go faster than that unless you plane.
In non-planing conditions the difference between a great paddler and a good paddler is how close they can stay to the maximum, because it takes a lot of energy to get closer to max. The most efficient position (lowest amount of energy for the highest speed) is when the hull is evenly positioned between the bow wave and the stern wave, which for most hull shapes is 70 percent of hull speed. If you put ten times more energy into paddling you still wouldn't go faster than max hull speed until you broke past the bow wave and started planing.
Humans can't do that.
humans can't plane unless they are on a very special boat, like a hydrofoil kayak being paddled by one of the world's best kayak paddlers. The strongest, best trained humans on the planet fall far short of generating one horsepower. Humans simply cannot exceed hull speed unless they get help from a sail or a swell.
there's a good reason why Dave Kalama and Laird Hamilton are constantly riding 14 foot guns--speed. there's a good reason why F16's win lots of races. Mark didn't make those boards sixteen feet long because he liked the name. You don't have to believe me, a simple google search will yield thousands of citations. ask Mark Raaphorst, or any of the serious surfboard or canoe designers. They are all fully aware of this limit.
All that said, paddling in Maui is different (thank God). We're dealing with swells--big ones. We don't build and race flatwater boards in Maui because they would spend half the time with their noses buried in the trough of a wave.
Bill I understand the physics part and don't disagree. I still would take the highly tuned athlete on a shorter board over a competent paddler because of the x factor. I see all the math your presenting but in life so many times the superior athlete with lesser equipment somehow wins. Maybe it was the will to win, endurance, knowledge, strength, etc. who knows. Anyways this is all in fun.
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: DavidJohn on October 07, 2008, 07:30:32 PM
Well it sure looks fast.. ;D
DJ
(http://api.ning.com/files/-00x78ecD9mPcMcC*7KBr1Y3zn8GDItfabo4noJRnWFJbRQ7vysteSGJFwnalbrmywOl*uuanm2LzJtRSyfjnPAOyOmztovv/Penetrator5723.JPG?transform=rotate(90)&width=449&height=600)
WOW, I'm a believer ;D
You got the right attitude Kaweeks. As for you stuey you need thicker skin, I was only stating the obvious. I'm sure your board is plenty fast. I just don't think some average guy from nowheresville is going to jump on it and smoke Laird & Kalama. Prove me wrong... ;D
I should probably stay out of this since most of you guys spend as much time on the water as I do in my office chair, but I love my time on the water too, and I am genuinely trying to figure this thing out. In my experience with canoes, rowboats, kayaks, surfboards, and SUPS alot of what has been said here is easy to agree with. Bill's statement that "Maximum hull speed in knots = 1.34 times the square root of the waterline in feet. That maximum hull speed is not a suggestion or an approximation--it's absolute. You CAN'T go faster than that unless you plane." Okay makes sense. And Stueys statement that "... what you are after is a board that disturbs the least amount of water with the longest narrowest footprint as is practically possible with the least wetted surface area (which equates to drag) that you can manage." Okay fine too. All of this is well and good but there seem to be lots of ways to get there. There are fast boards and slow boards with hard edges, and ones with soft edges, flat sections, concave hulls, double concave hulls, v hulls, and so on. Heck some of the fastest submarines now have these bulbous noses that are completely counterintuitive. And my 12' Munoz which was originally designed for surfing. It has plenty of rocker but is still one of the fastest paddling 12' boards I have ever been on. So my point is that sometimes it just all comes together and works in the water and sometimes it doesn't. Not that any board breaks the laws of physics just that there seems to be more than one way to reduce drag. For example, It seems that Parmenter's C4 boards tend to have alot of hard edges and double concaves on them while Bark boards tend to have alot of rounded edges and rounded bottom contours. Both are fast. But if you combined design elements from each I doubt the result would be as fast as either one. They both have adresses the goal of disturbing the water as little as possible but in diferent ways. Now back to Byron's point, a top athlete is often able to get closer to the maximum potential of a board partly by allowing it to disturb the water as little as possible. So don't leave the paddler out of the formula either. I guess each of us has to decide what works best, but I just don't have that figured out yet.
Put Lance Armstrong on a BMX bike & me on a road bike... I'm going to smoke him in a 10 mile race, but he is still the world class cyclist & I am still the 'competent' cyclist. Apples and oranges or 12 footers vs. 18 footers.
Welcome to the 1st race at Standupzone Downs!
And their off! Its superb athlete with an early jump, physics moving up on the outside, Ozzie with a funny name coming up fast, here comes Hawaiin pride, a tight group at the clubhouse turn, falling off fast is nasty attitude, replaced quickly by healthy respect, it's a push for the finish, superb athlete and physics are neck and neck......IT'S A PHOTO FINISH!!!!!
Results to be announced at next years Molokai.... ;D or sometime near then on Maui....I still volunteer for the "competent" gig.. ;)
Unfortunately based on Stuey's last response I think he''ll not be responding anymore. Too bad...looked like he had a lot to bring to the discussion.
Woohoooo!!! This is gonna be long, so grab yourselves a beer and a comfy chair. I know I said this morning that I wouldn't be back but several things have changed my mind. First and foremost, a CHALLENGE!! Oh Yeah, I've never backed away from one in my life and nobody calls me chicken!!!!....... YOU'RE ON, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED and I wanna make this sooner than later but I will get back to this.
Secondly, PonoBill, can I call you Pono? I'm so stoked that you weighed into the debate as you are obviously quite knowledgable on the subject. Glad that someone brought in physics as it's laws are as undeniable as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow. From the age of about 8, when I handcarved model boats my Dad drummed into my brain the fundamental formula you stated for maximum hull speed! 1.34 x the square root of the waterline length in feet will give you the speed in knots that when reached a hull must start planing, it's as set as the laws of gravity. Like you said at this precise speed the hull has to rise over the bow wave and plane. I hadn't actually thought of this for ages, it's just ingrained, Length = Speed. You're post however, got me thinking, about another law that you didn't mention. Once a hulls' Length to Width ratio exceeds 8 to 1 the craft ceases to form a bow wave and the hulls maximum speed becomes virtually unlimited!!! This is one of the reasons why Cats and Tris are so incredibly fast. Pono, I hadn't done this before, so I scribbled down some numbers re. my Penetrator versus a 12'. The answers proved an eye-opener, calling an average 12' a WL of 11'6" and W of 27" gives a Length to Width ratio of (5.1 to 1), definetly a speed limited hull that must plane to go any faster. I penciled in the figures for the Penetrator 572, overall dimensions, 18'8"x 26 1/2", it has a WL of 17'6" but with max width at the top of it's undercut rails, where it makes contact with the water the width is just 23" giving a Length to Width ratio of (9.2 to 1) well beyond the magic 8 to 1! No true bow wave, hull speed limited only by the strength and skill of the pilot........Enough physics but thanks Pono, without you I wouldn't have delved!!!
Byronmaui, sorry about sending you the wrong reply this morning, I thought I was still dealing with TreeStand! You said you wanted actual results, unfortunatly I have none for the 572 as this model is only a week or so old and as it is a customers we could only give it a quick test run and after all this he's no doubt seen his new board being covertly ridden on youtube (doh!). Woogies initial impression however is that it's somewhere around 30% quicker than it's 16' predecessor which has competed a few times and I do have some results for. It hasn't come close to being beaten yet. It's first and biggest race was earlier this year at the Noosa Festival, a 22km downwinder from Coolum to Noosa. Conditions were far from ideal with about 3 feet of sloppy, following swell. Woogie Marsh aboard the Penetrator 16' came 1st, a full 2kms ahead of the fleet and was playing with his kids in the shorey when C4s' top OZ guy, the previously unbeaten Billy Watson, paddled his Vortice into 2nd place. Now, I was happy for the win but didn't place too much creedence in it, after all the Penetrator had 2 more feet of waterlne so I thought it a tad unfair! The 572 has it's first race on the 25th of October at the Gold Coast, a 35km downwind relay. Woogie has partnered up with Danny Sheard and I'm feverishly preparing their new craft, re-tweaked from the one you see in the video with a brand new and hopefully workable steering system I've designed. They'll be competing against, among others, a team consisting of Jamie Mitchell and Mick DiBetta on a similarly sized board and if we can win there, believe me you will hear about it!!!
Now, THE CHALLENGE. As soon as this can be organised, perhaps early next year, I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak! I'm not a rich man but what I propose is this. I'll build a fully race-prepped Penetrator 572 but someone over there will have to buy it, I will put in all my labour for free meaning it will come in at about $A2,000, a bargain for you guys considering our dollar is only worth 70 cents to your greenback! We go halves in the freight the only conditions being it must be made available for THE CHALLENGE then it's all yours! You guys select a COMPETENT paddler to ride the 572, I'll trust you, then your best paddler who wishes to be involved will ride a board of your choice which must be no longer than 12'. We'll agree on a suitable venue and distance for a downwind battle and 1st over the line should solve this raging debate. Then I also propose that your fastest available paddler on your quickest unlimited board goes up against Woogie on the 572 over the same course. USA vs AUSTRALIA, the Sup Cup, if you like. Let the games begin!!! And TreeStand, did you say I didn't have a thick skin?...............Over and out, Stuey Campbell
Did I call it when I said this was going to get interesting or what?....sweet!
Good on ya Stuey!
Stuey - glad you're back and I hope you stick around. The challenge sounds like fun and I have a high level of appreciation for the Aussie contribution to surf and paddlecraft (love the nicknames too). I would be interested to see how your designs work in California conditions also. Any Aussies coming over the the Battle of the Paddle? I heard Jamie was not going to make it.
In the pre-SUP racing days Hennesseys had been known to move their Hawaii paddleboard championships to OZ every couple years. Hopefully that will happen again soon, and your influence in the Aussie standup racing community will help get us there.
Chris
Glad to se you didn't take your ball and go home Stuey. ;) Seems like you're gonna put your money where your mouth is. Now if we can just get Kalama in on this...
Stuey
I am game for this. The other board can be 12'6 right as mentioned earlier or are you saying 12?
I don't know about the second part of Woogie against another board manufacturer challenge since I have no affiliation with one. This is something someone else would have to set up.
Looks like I have to find a competent paddler and a superstar paddler. Oh well gooooooo America.
Aloha
Byron
P.S. Stuey remember this is not personal just a challenge.
QuoteA great paddler in flatwater can hold their craft close to hull speed for the entire time they race. It takes nearly twice as much energy for a hull to go from 90 percent hull speed to 95 percent. So a 12 foot hull with a max speed of 5 MPH (nautical) might be paddled at 95 percent for ten miles by someone really great--about 4.8 MPH. While a 18 foot with a max speed of 8 MPH would be paddled at 70 percent by a competent paddler: 5.6 MPH. That's why there are different classes for 12 foot stockers and unlimited hulls.
Hi guys,
The problem with all of this is that we are talking about downwinders, which, at least here, means consistant swells and glides. In our last Maliko race, we had riders in the top 10 on 18's, 17's, 16's, 14's, and 12's (and not in the order that length would suggest). All of these riders are exceeding 7 MPH over the length of the race (and that inludes the against the wind, flatwater 1/2 mile at the end. They are able to get up to swell speed, and when they do...the rest is just so much math.
It seems to me that the key is catching the swells easily, and being able to stick with them at swell speed for the longest possible time. If that means an ultra light 14 for a smaller lighter rider or an 18 for a 220 lb powerhouse then so be it. There are at least two examples I can think of great riders that went longer this year on really high end boards, and turned in way worse times (in comparison to themselves, and the field).
You are, of course, completely right Randy, but looking back at the beginning of the thread it was about speed in flatwater.
I love the whole idea of the challenge, and I'll buy the board and pay the freight. This all sounds like WAY, way too much fun to miss out on.
Hey Stuey make sure you get some kind of cool paint job on it or are we just doing plain vanilla white?
Aloha
Byron
QuoteYou are, of course, completely right Randy, but looking back at the beginning of the thread it was about speed in flatwater.
The thread seems to have wandered from downwind onward, but I believe that we are now talking about downwind.
QuoteMy boards fly in the face of convention and I have vastly different opinions on downwind design as to what is currently considered the norm
This is a downwind challenge we are talking about, yes?
There are so many variables that I am not sure how valuable this would be, but interesting, sure.
Chan borrowed an 18'6 proto that Mark had made and took it out for 3 days. The first day was solid wind with long wide open swell. She was flying, and had one of her fastest runs to that date. The next day was high tide, confused tight swell, and intermittent wind. She felt like she was carrying way too much board, having to force it alot and in general not digging it. The next day was more neutral, she had fun, but finished in the same time she had been at that stage on her 13 footer.
This board sounds similar to what Stuey is describing. Displacement bow, narrow, with a narrower again "underhull" surface.
I think that you can cripple a great rider with a less than ideal 12' board. I think you can give that same great rider an ideal 12' board and in the right swell and wind, he may be almost as fast as on his optimum board. Make it a 12' x 31 inch Laird board and you get one result. Make it a 12 foot 16 lb carbon, and you might get another depending on a ton of other factors. You already have solid riders like Jeremy on a 12'6 beating solid riders like Alan on an 18'6 under certain race conditions. What does making the riders less equal prove?
Don't most studies try to reduce confounding variables? This one seems to be adding them. That is to say, to get at anything close to useful, you would want the riders to be as close in weight, height, ability, experience on the course, etc. You would want to come as close as possible to the only variable being the board.
Downwind challenge it is.....Competent rider vs. Top Rider. Not sure who the riders are but will somehow figure out when the times come. Plenty of downwinder's like Maliko to Kahului, Maalaea to Cove, etc. We will figure out a couple of challenge's. Come on guys step up and who wants to ride? Math majors, scientist, and physics experts included.... ;D ;D.
Admin this is an unscientific test and lots of people can try Stuey's board if he follows through on his part. I am ready with debit card in hand. I am also gonna be checking with Frank's friend at Geico regarding insurance.
Were bringing home America's Cup.
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: Admin on October 08, 2008, 10:39:15 AM
QuoteYou are, of course, completely right Randy, but looking back at the beginning of the thread it was about speed in flatwater.
The thread seems to have wandered from downwind onward, but I believe that we are now talking about downwind.
QuoteMy boards fly in the face of convention and I have vastly different opinions on downwind design as to what is currently considered the norm
This is a downwind challenge we are talking about, yes?
There are so many variables that I am not sure how valuable this would be, but interesting, sure.
Chan borrowed an 18'6 proto that Mark had made and took it out for 3 days. The first day was solid wind with long wide open swell. She was flying, and had one of her fastest runs to that date. The next day was high tide, confused tight swell, and intermittent wind. She felt like she was carrying way too much board, having to force it alot and in general not digging it. The next day was more neutral, she had fun, but finished in the same time she had been at that stage on her 13 footer.
This board sounds similar to what Stuey is describing. Displacement bow, narrow, with a narrower again "underhull" surface.
I think that you can cripple a great rider with a less than ideal 12' board. I think you can give that same great rider an ideal 12' board and in the right swell and wind, he may be almost as fast as on his optimum board. Make it a 12' x 31 inch Laird board and you get one result. Make it a 12 foot 16 lb carbon, and you might get another depending on a ton of other factors. You already have solid riders like Jeremy on a 12'6 beating solid riders like Alan on an 18'6 under certain race conditions. What does making the riders less equal prove?
Don't most studies try to reduce confounding variables? This one seems to be adding them. That is to say, to get at anything close to useful, you would want the riders to be as close in weight, height, ability, experience on the course, etc. You would want to come as close as possible to the only variable being the board.
Let's not confuse the issue here. The original claim by Stuey was you take a competent rider and put him on the Penetrator and he will smoke a Kalama, Riggs, Hamilton, etc. on a 12 foot board. His board would leave them in the dust.
Ponobill started using math and my whole argument is math will not always predict the outcome of this because of the human factor which I called the X. I still believe the human factor plays a part in the downwinding variables and also winds, tides, etc. We can make this challenge real complicated or have fun with it. We can test in all types of conditions. I only called out Stuey on his original post. I respect Stuey and his board but am not buying the math factor in this whole argument. Stuey has graciously offered up a board so let's have some fun. I don't want to make this thing toooo complicated and confusing. Life is about the journey and not the destination.
Hopefully this helps Admin.
Aloha
Byron
QuoteLet's not confuse the issue here.
Hi Byron,
I guess my point is that it is confused beyond the point of any value as it stands. I do think there could be some interesting testing to hear about with this design, but what has been described just seems random.
let's just commit to doing this. It'll be fun. We can make the testing be whatever makes sense. As I said I'm willing to buy the board if that helps. My first thought is that rand (admin) paddle it. We get whatever elite paddler that wants to do the 12 foot challenge to do that part, then invite. Everyone that's building race boards to participate in some other way. Should be a hoot and. A good excise to roast a pig and drink some beer.
Quotelet's just commit to doing this. It'll be fun. We can make the testing be whatever makes sense. As I said I'm willing to buy the board if that helps. My first thought is that rand (admin) paddle it. We get whatever elite paddler that wants to do the 12 foot challenge to do that part, then invite. Everyone that's building race boards to participate in some other way. Should be a hoot and. A good excise to roast a pig and drink some beer.
Thanks, but I would rather it not be me.
It sounds like it might be Byron's board...so...I'll pass the hot potato his way.
Hehe...I think Byron beat you to it Bill.... ;D.
As for the competent part....I think we need someone unbiased...maybe from the east coast? Nickname could rhyme with bonesax.
Hi guys, stoked that you all seem intersested. I'll give my thoughts on a couple points you have bought up when I get home from work tonight and yes I am serious about my offer. I'm game and am offering to put up a week and a half of my work for this. No it wont find the ultimate board, for the moment mines as close to that as I can get and yes don't make too many rules or it will become like the Americas Cup. Remember you called me, when I stated my opinions! I think it will be a helluva of a lot of fun, a great exchange of ideas. a bit of friendly intercontinental rivalry and damnit, a great excuse for a bbq and some beers. Have a nice day or night wherever and whenever you are..........Stuey
Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie, oi oi oi.
Quote from: stuey c on October 08, 2008, 01:45:46 PM
Hi guys, stoked that you all seem intersested. I'll give my thoughts on a couple points you have bought up when I get home from work tonight and yes I am serious about my offer. I'm game and am offering to put up a week and a half of my work for this. No it wont find the ultimate board, for the moment mines as close to that as I can get and yes don't make too many rules or it will become like the Americas Cup. Remember you called me, when I stated my opinions! I think it will be a helluva of a lot of fun, a great exchange of ideas. a bit of friendly intercontinental rivalry and damnit, a great excuse for a bbq and some beers. Have a nice day or night wherever and whenever you are..........Stuey
Stuey
Look forward to your reply tonight. I am glad we have an agreement. Please understand this is not a
personal thing or in any way an online fight. I am glad that we are going to test your theory and Ponobill's math. I was never good at math and surely you and ponobill's formula will win ;D. I am just stuck on the motor (rider) part of it. I promise in return the board will be used and abused by anyone on Maui that wants to give it a ride. I think the board is a wonderful piece of work and believe it is a great board. Actually you could get some nice advertising out of it. I am about having fun and at the end of the day it is all good.
Thank you for being a gentleman and a scholar throughout this and may the best board/athlete win.
Aloha
Byron
The results of the 1st race at Standupzone Downs are in!
superb athlete and physics may have been neck and neck but it seems all-of-us beat them by a nose.
Maybe the 12 footer could be the new naish glide?
What do you guys think about opening up the race to others to see how they do on their own boards? It could be just a "come if you want to join us" kinda thing and will give us all more insight into what's working.
What about also doing some runs on Oahu?
Quote from: StandUpPaddleSurf.net on October 08, 2008, 04:51:21 PM
What do you guys think about opening up the race to others to see how they do on their own boards? It could be just a "come if you want to join us" kinda thing and will give us all more insight into what's working.
What about also doing some runs on Oahu?
Count me in......I'll show up with my slow ass board.
I would love to participate in this race. Maui or Oahu
Aloha...Sam
Quote from: StandUpPaddleSurf.net on October 08, 2008, 04:51:21 PM
What do you guys think about opening up the race to others to see how they do on their own boards? It could be just a "come if you want to join us" kinda thing and will give us all more insight into what's working.
What about also doing some runs on Oahu?
I think that would be an awesome idea. Kind of like the idea Admin proposed in the race class thread: all boards welcome, any length, rudder/no rudder, anything goes, may the best man win, just for fun of course. Follow that up with a bbq & it could serve as sort of a "forum outing" where members, potential members & anybody else interested in sup could get to know each other. Sounds like it'd be a good time & Im sure you'd have a good turnout whether its just on maui or both maui & oahu.
Hehe...the "challenge" hasn't even been ironed out yet. It would be great to have an open race but get the challenge part over with 1st.
Okay, if Byron is funding the board I'll fund the barbeque and the beer. I know firsthand that Randy can eat his weight in pig.
Bill is not joking about how much Rand can eat...it's unreal.
Hi guys, it's me again, a little sad but back. I've unfortunatly been hit from all sides even my own country! I've been accused of everything from disrespecting the Hawaiians to this being nothing but a marketing ploy to sell boards. As I said before none of this was ever my intention. My one mistake was probably including Woogie in part of the challenge without confering with him first as he is away at the moment. I don't care about selling boards except to put food in my mouth and to help my sons surfing career. All I wanted to do was tell you guys about a different design of downwind paddleboards I had created and the reasons for their differences, if I came across as arrogant as I've been told, again this was never my intention, I still hold to my opinions,ideas and am every bit as passionate about the Penetrator. For the reasons I've cited I'll be pulling back on THE CHALLENGE. Sorry to those of you who were interested and keen to see it go ahead. Byronmauii, I'll be in touch via private message and would still love to send you the Penetrator 572 at the quoted price, damn cheap as our dollar has fallen even lower. Please test it as you see fit, put it against a 12', another 18' whatever you like, I'm sure you'll come away thinking as I do that it is a trully great design but please do me a favour and let me know what you think (in a private message, please). To the rest of you, once again I meant no disrespect and I'm sorry for causing a rukus........Goodbye and Aloha.......Stuey Campbell
P.S. Sorry PonoBill would have liked to have met you, don't let Randy eat all that pig and make sure Byron gives you a ride on his new craft.
Stuey...for what its worth...I didn't think you came off as arrogant....confident for sure...proud of your design and background, decidely so, with good reason from what I can see. And a passionate belief of your own doesn't mean your'e disrespectful of others. You came across with some strong statements and I'm still questioning what the correct answers are. On a molokai downwinder I still think that Dave K paddling a bathtub smokes Average Joe. On flatwater or no swells physics is physics without the variables thrown in and it becomes a contest at least.
I hope we still get to see/hear what the results might be.....we should still BBQ and drink anyway... ;D...I was already planning on it.... ;)
Stuey
You are a gentleman and a scholar. I was going to say this last night but had to do food shopping with the wife.
As I was shopping I had a thought as I was buying bananas. Stuey is not nutz he is just a passionate guy about his boards and understandibly so since he builds them by hand. This is rarely seen nowadays with many board builders nowadays and I think you are a special breed. After this thought I realized I was bananas for letting my fingers do the thinking. Please understand that your statements were never taken in a hawaiian's suck or being disrespectful towards hawaiian paddlers kind of thing. I was just fixated on you and ponobill's math belief. I still am but that is another story for another day. I will not be buying a board unless that is the board you use in the Molokai and you do not want to take it back. If you leave it I will buy it and test it for you and let people test it. Thank you and please do not lose the fire because once that happens your boards will be just boards and not works of art.
Your friend
Byron
Hi guys,
This has taken a big turn for the better.
Lets have some fun with this. I say get some of Stuey's boards over here. One for Bill, one for Byron.
Stuey, I bet Bill could be convinced to fly you over and put you up. That way you can paddle with us, make sure we are doing it right, we can all swap gear...and then do it again.
If you guys see value in having a top pro there, and can get one, I will shut my mouth. It sure won't hurt.
I forgot but Stuey if you don't win the molokai then I will blame the board because you have one of the top motors (Woogie) in the business. ;) ;)
Aloha
Byron
Quote from: stoneaxe on October 08, 2008, 05:54:45 PM
Hehe...the "challenge" hasn't even been ironed out yet. It would be great to have an open race but get the challenge part over with 1st.
Yeah how about a change of venue... Say Gloucester to P-Town during a Noreaster in December? ;) Bring your Drysuit. 8)
Because it would be a hell of a lot more fun Mailiko to Kahului in board shorts and sunscreen.... ::)
We'd have to go P'town to Gloucester in a Nor'easter anyway.... ;).
Way to go Rand. But don't go giving MY room away... ;D. If this happens by hook or crook I'm going to get out there!
While me and Stuey work out a game plan I thought I would throw out my math problem....
7 mile flatwater course no wind or swell
Rider #1 18 footer SUP and averages 50 strokes a minute through out the whole 7 miles
Rider #2 12'6 SUP and averages 75 strokes a minute through out the whole 7 miles.
Both riders are equal height and weight. Who wins and why? Can we predict the winning time or finishing times with all of our math or is this a lost cause?
Aloha
Byron
P.S. Math was weak in highschool and college but my dating was strong. ;D
Dating is generally more important than math, though math doesn't get you into as much trouble.
Really, no wind or swell, it would be hard for a 12' board to beat an 18 foot. the guy on the 18 could loaf along while the guy on the 12' paddled his guts out. There's some graphs around on the kayak sites that show energy expended per KPH. You can easily see when hulls get close to the max speed. The curve bends over sharply at about 70 percent of maximum speed and goes almost flat at 90 percent. Gaining that last ten percent takes a huge increase in power. Maximum hull speed of a 12' is 4.64 nautical MPH. Max speed of a 18.8 is 5.8 nautical miles per hour. The effort curve is not linear at all. At 70 percent effort the 18.8 is going as fast as the 12' at 100 percent.
Even if the curve were linear, at 80 percent the 18.8 would be going the same speed as the 12' at 100 percent.
But all this goes out the window in chop, swells and confused seas. then a great paddlers smokes the competition--no matter what they are on.
Quote7 mile flatwater course no wind or swell
Rider #1 18 footer SUP and averages 50 strokes a minute through out the whole 7 miles
Rider #2 12'6 SUP and averages 75 strokes a minute through out the whole 7 miles.
Both riders are equal height and weight. Who wins and why? Can we predict the winning time or finishing times with all of our math or is this a lost cause?
I have an add on question for those who might know. This stuff is interesting, but I have all Q's and no A's.
There was mention that this was based on waterline. So if the waterline on an F-16, due to relatively high volume and its heavy entry rocker is say 13.5 feet long (guess) and maybe it's almost all of the hypothetical 12'6 under the weight of the same size rider, wouldn't the waterline lengths be way closer?
It seems that some of the long Cali boards that we are seeing are so low rocker as to be almost 100% waterline (even with no rider onboard) while some downwinder 17's have 2-3 feet that only will have water contact when swell riding, or under the weight of a really heavy rider.
Also, what about width? Does a 40 inch wide 18 footer still take less effort than a 26 inch wide 12 footer, even with all of the extra drag?
Great questions. It is indeed the waterline length, and a lot of rocker will shorten that. When Mark was building the first F18 it was for Cali, and he did it with minimal rocker for exactly that reason. The width is an interesting issue on it's own. Sailboat races are always grouped by waterline length, and back 20 years or so some of the smart builders were making the boats very tubby in the middle. When the boats were measured up straight, next to the dock their waterline was 26 feet or so, but when they heeled over the waterline was a curve, and it extended up to 30 feet or more. they kicked ass in the races, but they needed a lot of sail to go fast.
The shape of the hull and how it enters the water determines how easy it is to get up to speed. We've probably all experienced how hard it is to get a wide board with curved rails to glide. Straight rails and a fine entry make it easier to approach max speed, so there's all kinds of things designers can do to make the boards faster.
And then there's designing for conditions. I think a flat bottom 18 footer would be a submarine on a big swell day at Maliko. You'd want to never get in the bottom of a trough.
Quote from: PonoBill on October 10, 2008, 07:54:26 AM
Great questions. It is indeed the waterline length, and a lot of rocker will shorten that. When Mark was building the first F18 it was for Cali, and he did it with minimal rocker for exactly that reason. The width is an interesting issue on it's own. Sailboat races are always grouped by waterline length, and back 20 years or so some of the smart builders were making the boats very tubby in the middle. When the boats were measured up straight, next to the dock their waterline was 26 feet or so, but when they heeled over the waterline was a curve, and it extended up to 30 feet or more. they kicked ass in the races, but they needed a lot of sail to go fast.
The shape of the hull and how it enters the water determines how easy it is to get up to speed. We've probably all experienced how hard it is to get a wide board with curved rails to glide. Straight rails and a fine entry make it easier to approach max speed, so there's all kinds of things designers can do to make the boards faster.
And then there's designing for conditions. I think a flat bottom 18 footer would be a submarine on a big swell day at Maliko. You'd want to never get in the bottom of a trough.
I really love all these questions and discussions you guys have and I just can't stop myself from logging in and reading........no wonder the sport is light years behind in Australia! Would still like to contribute but as you may understand due to recent events am a little timid. I'm gonna build and send you guys a Penetrator for testing damn it, even if it has to be a goodwill gift for all you have done and are doing!!!!!
All the best, guys, Stuey Campbell
QuoteThe shape of the hull and how it enters the water determines how easy it is to get up to speed. We've probably all experienced how hard it is to get a wide board with curved rails to glide. Straight rails and a fine entry make it easier to approach max speed, so there's all kinds of things designers can do to make the boards faster.
I think this is why so many of the top SUP shapers have a windsurf design background. These are design issues they had to deal with because of the different conditions a sailboard has to perform in. Not to take anything away from the surfboard designers.
Stuey- Brush the haters off... I think Snoop Dogg said that. Anyway, good natured ribbing is ok anytime there is a basic level of respect. I am not from HI or a physicist (I'm a chubby white guy - probably shouldn't quote a rapper either), but I think the video shows you know how to make a board. Don't stop the participation.