Whats so bad about PFDs?

[dingfix]

Over the years I've gone from not wearing a PDF at all to thinking they aren't a bad idea.  Getting common sense in my old age?

Now I wear an impact vest when surfing, I like the way it holds me higher in the white water.  And it keeps me warm.   I don't ride big waves so not sure of how desirable they are in big stuff.

When cruising I'm mostly out alone so its either a kayak style PDF or on warmer days an mti waist PDF, the latter is great, don't even know I'm wearing it!

[Dkyachtphoto]

OK,  I have a question...  What is the purpose of a pfd if it's not already inflated or you can't swim? If you wear one of the little co2 belt ones or have it on your board how is that gonna help you if you fall and knock yourself out?

I'll be honest I only have one because of the law. I'm a avid swimer/diver and just don't see the need for one if you have your board. I can't think of any situation where "I" would need one. Maybe have it to throw to someone in distress?? I'm not trying to be a dick BTW,  just sharing my thoughts....

Dave

[Bean]

...Yes, for sneaky people thinking they can go to the definitions to find they are exempt--per 175.3 a SUP is a "recreational vessel":
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=pt33.2.175#se33.2.175_113

Won't get into flare or other additional visual distress signal requirements for unlimiteds since this is a pfd thread.

PDX, my impression, notwithstanding state or local law to the contrary,  as long as you are not carrying any equipment that is not solely for racing, a race SUP should qualify under this part: 

§175.3   Definitions

Racing shell, rowing scull, racing canoe, and racing kayak means a manually propelled vessel that is recognized by national or international racing associations for use in competitive racing and one in which all occupants row, scull, or paddle, with the exception of a coxswain, if one is provided, and is not designed to carry and does not carry any equipment not solely for competitive racing.

§175.17   Exemptions.

(b) Racing shells, rowing sculls, racing canoes, and racing kayaks are exempted from the requirements for carriage of any PFD required under §175.15.

[Bean]

OK,  I have a question...  What is the purpose of a pfd if it's not already inflated or you can't swim? If you wear one of the little co2 belt ones or have it on your board how is that gonna help you if you fall and knock yourself out?

I'll be honest I only have one because of the law. I'm a avid swimer/diver and just don't see the need for one if you have your board. I can't think of any situation where "I" would need one. Maybe have it to throw to someone in distress?? I'm not trying to be a dick BTW,  just sharing my thoughts....

Dave

You're right, a belt inflatable is only helpful for a conscious person.  But, if you ever get separated from your board, it could give you the confidence and option to swim to shore or blow it up and wait it out depending upon the circumstances. 

[eastbound]

flotation for sup surf is good is big hold down surf and in cases where leash breaks---it wont wake you if unconscious, might make you more visible, for people trying to get to you to revive you

with kids, i always insist they wear jackets, even (especially ) on big power boat social situations---and if they wear one, i do--it's about setting example, but much more importantly, about being stable in the water if kid needs help---with flotation, I could mouth to mouth a kid in a jacket in the water, if need be--

fins are key to surf rescue---always have a pair in the car, not that id have time to get em from the car---to try to rescue someone in a big work zone without fins on just adds danger

[Dkyachtphoto]

OK,  I have a question...  What is the purpose of a pfd if it's not already inflated or you can't swim? If you wear one of the little co2 belt ones or have it on your board how is that gonna help you if you fall and knock yourself out?

I'll be honest I only have one because of the law. I'm a avid swimer/diver and just don't see the need for one if you have your board. I can't think of any situation where "I" would need one. Maybe have it to throw to someone in distress?? I'm not trying to be a dick BTW,  just sharing my thoughts....

Dave

You're right, a belt inflatable is only helpful for a conscious person.  But, if you ever get separated from your board, it could give you the confidence and option to swim to shore or blow it up and wait it out depending upon the circumstances.

Ok I guess that makes sense, assuming your not using a leash and are in conditions where your board is blown away from you to fast to catch up to.

Dave

[Dkyachtphoto]

flotation for sup surf is good is big hold down surf and in cases where leash breaks---it wont wake you if unconscious, might make you more visible, for people trying to get to you to revive you

with kids, i always insist they wear jackets, even (especially ) on big power boat social situations---and if they wear one, i do--it's about setting example, but much more importantly, about being stable in the water if kid needs help---with flotation, I could mouth to mouth a kid in a jacket in the water, if need be--

fins are key to surf rescue---always have a pair in the car, not that id have time to get em from the car---to try to rescue someone in a big work zone without fins on just adds danger

Totally agree about the kids yes. I wasn't talking about surfing more on general expedition and casual paddling BTW. For big wave surfing I completely agree in wearing one. For instance all the rental people you see with the big orange pfd under the bungie cord. It's 100% worthless to them like that....

Dave

[dingfix]

Everything in life is a trade-off.
If I'm a mile from the lakeshore and alone, I want some float on me in case I get separated from my board.  The risk of being unconscious is pretty low, not like sailing where the boom smacks you in the head.  If you are unconscious the only thing that will help you is a full on lifejacket and I'm not wearing one of those on a sup!

So, assessing the risks I believe either a kayak style or belt pfd is good enough.

[hbsteve]

Dave--The people with pfds attached do have one benefit.  They won't get stopped by the officials and get an expensive ticket.

[robon]

Most PFDs that core paddlers wear are not really designed to keep the unconscious paddler face up or completely vertical in the water (Type 1/bulky). From what has been explained to me, Type II PFDs are not all guaranteed to turn an unconscious person face up or vertical and some designs require the individual to get themselves into a face up position under their own power.

[PonoBill]

These threads always wander. The issue has never been that PFDs are bad, it's been opposition to a truly stupid regulation. Not just because geezers don't like being told what to do, but because the regulation not only doesn't enhance safety, it harms it. On any warm weekend the Columbia will be full of newb on SUPs, paddling with lifejackets tied to the nose of their board and no leash. the local cops enforce the regulation. Those people are abiding by the regs, they won't be ticketed, and they are in serious danger.

That's it, that's all of it.

Well, thankfully I don't have to put up with this sort of nonsense because I live in Europe, and generally we are mostly quite happy for people to kill themselves through stupidity. And I can entirely see why this makes you mad. But to play devil's advocate here, if you believe in freedom, why is being able to leave the pfd on your board worse than being forced to wear it? As it stands, people have a choice to wear it (sensible) or not (not so sensible, for most, in most conditions). If instead everyone was required to actually wear a pfd then people on boats etc would have to also, unless you could somehow have special rules just for SUPs - in which case you've got the problem of definition (eg. what uniquely defines a SUP? Is a SUP still a SUP if you aren't standing on it? Does a kayak that you stand up on suddenly become a SUP? Etc etc).

If the argument is that leashes should replace PFDs then we've already seen deaths because of leash use (as well as deaths because of failure to wear a pfd). Has anyone died because they were wearing a pfd?

So it seems to me, as an outsider, that not being compelled to wear a pfd is better this having to. No one is stopping you wearing a leash. So, other than having no regulations at all (like we don't, wear I live), maybe you have a better scenario than many you might otherwise get (assuming your priority is the freedom of the individual to decide for themselves what level of risk they will tolerate)?

But maybe I'm missing the point entirely.

No, you aren't missing the point at all. I'd prefer there be no regulation at all rather than a stupid and dangerous one, but if we're going to have one, it should be effective and well-reasoned. The fact that people don't expect that from regulators, and that regulators claim it's too difficult to have more specific regulation based on understanding the sport and it's unique characteristics,  speaks volumes. If you can't effectively regulate, you shouldn't regulate at all. Either step up, or step out.

In response to the other questions/statements: I've become very attached to my impact vest. I wear it on almost all big days (we had SO many this year) and sometimes on small ones if I just feel like it. I haven't found the perfect one yet, but I like the float, like not having my ribs or breastbone kicked in, and it warm in the mornings. Loch Eggers told me he wears float all the time now. Any wave, any time. If it's good enough for Loch it's good enough for me.

I've also ordered a Vaikobi PFD. Several people in our OC6 club have them, and they look good for doing downwinders. Hydration pocket, space for my cellphone so I can have music/motionX going, very slim, doesn't look like it would make it harder to get back on the board. We'll see.

[Dkyachtphoto]

Dave--The people with pfds attached do have one benefit.  They won't get stopped by the officials and get an expensive ticket.

True,  I do always keep mine visible and I have a whistle tucked in it. If I read the law correctly the whistle is also a requirement in FL. I just think the law is ridiculous.... If they make you have one you should be required to wear it! It's like having to have seat belts in your car but you can store them in the trunk.

Dave

[Bean]

Many if not all inflatables have a whistle attached (inside).  This would be a good time to unpack the vest and check it out.  Inflate it using the tube, try it on, make sure it holds air.  Well worthwhile, less than a 5min exercise.

BTW, having an extra whistle on the outside too is not a bad idea at all.

[yugi]

These threads always wander. The issue has never been that PFDs are bad, it's been opposition to a truly stupid regulation. Not just because geezers don't like being told what to do, but because the regulation not only doesn't enhance safety, it harms it. On any warm weekend the Columbia will be full of newb on SUPs, paddling with lifejackets tied to the nose of their board and no leash. the local cops enforce the regulation. Those people are abiding by the regs, they won't be ticketed, and they are in serious danger.

That's it, that's all of it.

yep - exactly

[pdxmike]

...Yes, for sneaky people thinking they can go to the definitions to find they are exempt--per 175.3 a SUP is a "recreational vessel":
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?n=pt33.2.175#se33.2.175_113

Won't get into flare or other additional visual distress signal requirements for unlimiteds since this is a pfd thread.

PDX, my impression, notwithstanding state or local law to the contrary,  as long as you are not carrying any equipment that is not solely for racing, a race SUP should qualify under this part: 

§175.3   Definitions

Racing shell, rowing scull, racing canoe, and racing kayak means a manually propelled vessel that is recognized by national or international racing associations for use in competitive racing and one in which all occupants row, scull, or paddle, with the exception of a coxswain, if one is provided, and is not designed to carry and does not carry any equipment not solely for competitive racing.

§175.17   Exemptions.

(b) Racing shells, rowing sculls, racing canoes, and racing kayaks are exempted from the requirements for carriage of any PFD required under §175.15.

Bean--I agree.  I and some other people have been mentioning this exemption for a couple years. I've always thought anyone caught without a pfd should point out this exemption, but so far I haven't heard of anyone trying it, or ever getting any response from any authorities about it.  To me, most SUPs definitely meet this exemption.


The reason I brought up the dumb requirements for unlimiteds--besides to torment people--is to show how the rules are even stupider than most realize.  I don't know if any authorities even know this rule would apply to 16' SUPs.  I also doubt many know about the race board exemption.  For the authorities who don't know about the race board exemption, I doubt any would try to nail a 16' SUP with the throwable pfd rule even if they did know about it, because they'd be too embarrassed to apply it.  That means they do believe they can use judgement when they think a rule is dumb, which at least is something.