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Messages - Eagle

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Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 24, 2017, 09:27:40 PM »
"I did the workout once with Dave and his cousin Junya, and spent the next six days sleeping on the couch with massive ab and general core cramps. I couldn't lay down to get a massage."

Haha!  Ab workouts are the best.  Burn baby burn!  Is the last set I do and despise them yet love them at the same time.  Sadistic yes very.

All the stuff these guys do is perfect for SUP.  They are the pros and on top and stay on top for good reason.  Strength trained to the max with no bs.  Hardcore the way it should be.  Perfect.

Average joes are just average joes.  These guys get results.   ;D

Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 24, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »
Of course big wave surfer dude Laird has no reason to hit the gym either with the small amount of actual SUP he does now being on the foil now.   ;D

Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 24, 2017, 03:07:42 PM »
Not as muscled up as Boothy for a lightweight very lean rider 140-160 lbs -> but has plenty with very low body fat mass.  Any of the top pros have about the same BF% ie very low probs top 3% and def below the -2SD line.  This is key with adequate muscle mass then endurance.  Light weight muscled up with endurance balance technique skill willpower etc is hard to beat.  Boothy and Travis etc can get it done at higher BW but they also have very low fat mass ie. very good strength to weight -> and very good power to weight ratios.  Kai is so busy with other watersports but still has time to go to the gym plus do HIIE like any top elite endurance athlete. Oh here is pic of small and skinny Kai.  ;)

"For me, training is really fun, as my gym is the entire island of Maui. I work out in a physical gym three times a week and also on the beach doing runs in soft sand along with other exercises during the run. I also spend so much time on the water surfing, windsurfing, kitesurfing, standup paddling, canoe surfing—you name it."

"The workout is awesome because you use the natural terrain to torture yourself—tree limbs for pull ups, soft sand hills for sprints, deep sand for running, and waist-deep water for sprints when you really want to push."

Yep.  But you may be surprised pretty quick.  My wife can ride the Dom AW and AS23 on flat pretty easy now.  Whereas when she first started she could not stand on the Dom for more than 5 minutes at a time.  Just get your wife something a bit more stable like one of those boards -> and she should be good.  Plus you can use that yourself for DW.  I see...  Perfect.  ;)

Yep no doubt Mocke says -
(you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler)

But he continues on with this tidbit which is vitally important for the crap slug average joe like me -> "supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention."  This is actually 100% true in my experience.

It is clear Boothy has plenty of muscle mass -> but even then he still works hard to keep it and build on it.  That is very smart.  He also has good endurance and he needs not to lose much fat mass.  That simple combination in part allowed him a very quick and easy transition to SUP success at the top level.  He has plenty of muscle mass - has good endurance - and has low fat mass.  Plus his technique and balance learning curve really was amazingly short for a SUP noob.  Basically SB plopped him on an AS and just gave him a paddle -> and said do your thing mate.  And he has.

But def one has to actually paddle to be a faster paddler.  That is always a given.  Boothy and Mocke are at or near the top because they incorporate strength training.  If they did not -> they would not be where they are.  ;)

Touring board was the wrong term. M14, 28" Maliko, 29" Sidewinder, Bullet V1, a board like those as a single all purpose board. Surfing, around here I'll take a sup every time. I'm past the point of radical shortboarding. I've had a lot of fun even surfing raceboards.
Hi warmuth - those boards you list are really good boards for DW.  You should really like them.  They also can be used for AW touring -> but my personal pref would be the Bullet 14V2.  Not on your list - but a board that is stable and DW versatile.

Allows AW and DW use and is ok in more docile conditions.  Was out this past weekend and 2 of my DW buddies were using 14V2s while I was on my Dom.  Upwind they kept up fine -> but DW they took off in just 3kts of breeze!  Now I had paddled about 4 miles extra already in 12 kts - but still.  I could see them slip ahead on every micro bump without paddling hard.  Was very frustrating and I told them after during beers.  But it is what it was.  That 14V2 is a really nice board and a ton of peeps have them now.  Personally know like 6 guys that have the 14 and 3 the 12'6.  But really any of your choices you list should be fine for what you want.

It is a joy just paddling around for pure fun at this point.  That really is what makes SUP so appealing for us.  :)

Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

Def 100% with you on this.  ;)
This approach to strength training exercise comes from David a top surfski endurance athlete -

"For endurance athletes, such as kayak/surfski paddlers, strength training provides an important physical counterbalance to the repetitious movements associated with the boat and paddle. While nothing can replace sport specific training for increased performance (you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler), supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention.

And of course, working out with weights helps develop raw power and explosive strength, which is hard to get in the boat alone. For kayak athletes this translates into faster accelerations and higher output during hard interval efforts – a welcome advantage when looking for a fast start, breaking away from a pack of racers, or sprinting to catch a wave."

"For paddlers, I believe body weight training is very effective – i.e. pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups and core exercises."

Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 22, 2017, 05:57:47 PM »
Boothy is a very accomplished paddler and he also does stuff like this -

"However, paddling is a full body exercise using a lot of core strength, legs and upper body all in synthesis. Therefore, I believe it is important to work all the major muscle groups. My favorites are lat pull downs, bench pull, bench press, bicep curl, leg press, chin-ups and assorted core exercises (holds and twisting activities.)"

"When I’m doing a large amount of paddling I prefer using heavier weights with lower reps – there’s only so much cardio you can do!"

Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 22, 2017, 03:31:57 PM »
The coach of my sup training group has arranged for Michael Booth to give us a Skype sup clinic. To get the most out of it I want to make sure I have some good questions to ask the pro.

What would you ask him?

1) Whether he has ever been tested in a lab ?
2) What is his Vo2 max if he knows it.
3) Does he train with a structure ?
4) Does he perform strength training and what are his thoughts on it ?

"I try to train either on the SUP or on the Ski most weekdays. Ski and SUP both use a lot of the same muscle groups and I believe training on both crafts help to prevent injury and keep my mind fresh. To go into more detail I find SUP is a more total body activity whereas ski mostly focuses almost solely on the upper body. The targeted muscle groups such as the lats, biceps and core are very similar in both sports. I'm in the gym and run a couple times a week. I believe gym helps with total body strength and developing my anaerobic system. Running on the other hand helps with my aerobic capacity and conditioning. I believe that I have worked out exactly what my body needs to perform and have the perfect program for me!"

For distance and flat he should be tough competition for sure.

Haha!  Generally if someone challenges me on the water.  Still game on!  Luc knows.  Applies to sailing and SUP equally.  Basically retired from sailboat racing 5 yrs ago.  But was challenged to give it a go again.  Won the race -> and was super fun and very exciting.

For SUP was asked to team up and do a 20 mi relay.  Just depends if my partner feels comfortable to do it on her new board 24.5AS.  For me am ready to race tomorrow on that board.  It feels very efficient and slippery.  But much more stable than my 23.  Paddle 5-10 miles all the time on my 23 now.  So should be fun if we can make that race happen.

But Luc is right -> you need to DW.  That is way more fun than bs flat water torture racing.  ;)

"Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport."

ukgm - as noted squats have helped my leg strength tremendously and DL my back and MU and PUs my upper body.  Obviously I do many other weight exercises as well.  Kinda is fun now in a strange way.

But without power to my legs and arms on my SUP -> I could barely paddle after 8 miles on a tippy board in the rough windy ocean.  Still remember that day vividly.  Had to paddle 2 miles on my knees upwind as my balance was shot in 15 kts.  Ever since then told myself I needed to get stronger.  And did.  Now no probs.

It is basic that strength needs to be adapted for the sport.  That is plain and simple.  But you do need to build up your muscles and CNS.  And heavy resistance weights do that.  Enough mileage is a given on a SUP and your balance improves.

But really my fundamental goal every time on the water is to have fun and relax.  My speed is really a non-issue.  I go plenty fast enough and have no pressing desire to go any faster really.  It is what it is.  I just take it and go.  SUP for me has always been about improving my balance in middle age.  Off water -> about fitness and strength etc.  :)

Most peeps have no clue that excess fat mass really is very metabolically active and kinda like an endocrine organ.  As hunter gatherers we were starving near 24 hrs a day.  We were very lean with hardly any fat mass to speak of.  That very same fat protected us from calorie starvation when we could not locate food.  Very simple and perfect.

But not sure who here is saying weight training has been studied for SUP.  But it def helps.  As well training your body for VO2 max and endurance blah blah blah.  I do sprint running intervals for that and active rest etc etc.  As noted if you are unfit -> obviously do some cardio.  Something anyways.

Haha Luc - remember when we first met years ago.  You on your red Touring pintail and me on my Dom.  The good ol days.  ;)

Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)

ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.

It is not one simple power solution.  You can generate a lot of power and still be very slow over the water because you have too much fat mass.  I have incorporated 3x BW squats and 2x BW DL with lotsa MU and PUs.  Has helped my SUP tremendously.  Whereas my legs and arms would fatigue -> they no longer do so.

Yes power to the paddle face is important.  We all know that.  We also know that strength and power are different.  That is very simple and straightforward and obvious.

Kai caught up because the others in front fatigued.  Happens all the time in races.  You reel a guy in because he just went out too hard and blew up.  Nothing special.  Now Bolt and Phelps are special though.  Not Kai really.

Strength to weight is about direct fat mass reduction -> not just simple weight loss.  Many lose a ton of weight but lose a ton of muscle mass and little actual fat loss.  Tons of clinical data confirming this.  ;)

Was thinking that the aerobic side of the equation was a given from my perspective.  Most I know are fit and have really good endurance.  Many run marathons and ultras.  You can see in the images posted that many lose huge amts of muscle mass over time.  Normally that muscle mass is swapped directly for fat mass.  And huge weight gain.  That is just the reality for the huge majority.  Sarcopenia and fat gain.

Certainly those that have poor endurance need to ramp that aspect up as well.  With 70% OW or obese -> says a lot about the health of the majority.  Main concern really is fat mass loss then muscle retention then endurance.  No need for endurance if there is no muscle mass.  Little Finn is a good example of small muscle mass with very low body fat and good endurance.  Once that boy fills out with more muscle mass -> he will probs be a major force.

Until then -> his low body fat and aerobic endurance will only take him so far.  But obviously every circumstance is different.  Some need muscle.  Some need endurance.  Most need to lose fat mass.  My wife has really good endurance and balance -> but lacks muscle mass for example.  So there is no definitive single answer.

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