Lighter is faster- real world test results

[blueplanetsurf]

The 12'6 Amundson is the most stable "race" board I have tried. 
I'm not a supporting sponsor here, so I won't go into salesman mode but I'll say this: The flat water speed compares surprisingly well to the other boards I tested.  If you look at the training log link I posted earlier you will see the times compare well to some top race models I have tested, including Ron House, Bark, M&M, Everpaddle and La Hui Kai 12'6 models.

[Six Feet and Glassy]

544 pounds?!?!  That's unreal!  No wonder it's stable!  

The results of your second test, with the weights distributed along the length, are very interesting.  The added weight at nose and tail make the board more stable. Hmm...

Could this be the first real point for the Heavy Is Better or Some Weight Is Good gang?

Or...Just playing devil's advocate here (no need get mad!)...

Maybe when folks are saying they get "more glide" with heavier boards, maybe they are actually gliding more because they are more stable; not because the weight is giving them more momentum.  A wobbling board does not glide as well as a stable, steady board.

Ok...(covering up)...Return Fire!

[blueplanetsurf]

Six Feet and Glassy, I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.  The board was more stable with NO weight on top of it, no doubt.
I just noticed that putting the weights in the middle of the board made it yaw a lot, while spreading them out made it yaw less. 
I was comparing weights in the middle vs weights spread out, not weights vs. no weights.
You could argue that putting weights on the nose and tail of a board would make the board more directional (and slower/harder to turn- like straightening out your body to slow down the rotation of a flip).  I don't think this would make the board faster but it's an interesting thought.

Thinking along those lines:
When you are SUP surfing (as opposed to racing) you want the board to turn as easily as possible, so if you are turning the board off the tail, having less weight, especially in the front of the board and/or a shorter length, will make it easier to pivot the board. 

[Six Feet and Glassy]

Aah.  Okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I just thought maybe I had a point for the other side.

I just can't believe that so many good, competent paddlers could feel that some added weight allows them to go better in the bumps (have more "momentum", as has been mentioned), if there is no good scientific reason to back it up.

I think they really are feeling something real.  But what is it?  Either they really Are going better with the heavier board or they Think they are going better, but not really.

Sorry.  Haven't surfed or paddled in a while.  And I've been here at Disneyland for a few days.  My son is having a great time and that makes me incredibly happy.  But I miss surfing and paddling.  "Talking" about it here - though probably dissecting far more than needed - helps with the jonesing.   

[blueplanetsurf]

Hi Ken,
It's all good, just a discussion, no need to apologize.
Glad you are having a good time at Disneyland with your son.  Thinking, reading and arguing about this stuff shows you are passionate about your sport, I guess that's why I spend all the time doing this, too, and I don't think it's wasted time, just fueling the stoke.

I think the momentum argument is totally valid as is better handling in rough conditions and I mentioned those advantages talking about my heavy Bark unlimited board.
Tow-in boards are the only boards I know of where top level athletes will intentionally make the board heavier to make them perform better. 
Among top level SUP racers there is a consensus that light and stiff is fastest.  I know a lot of racers and no one thinks making their board heavier will make it faster.  Most are obsessed about making it lighter and probably spend a disproportionate amount of money on it.  Spending money on better, lighter gear is no substitute for time on the water.  You could make the argument that if you have to work more to pay for that lighter gear, you would be better off not buying it and paddling more instead.

Discussing it brings out new ideas and concepts.  I did not think spreading out the weights would make a difference until I was urged to try it and learned something new.  That's what its all about, so keep it coming.

[LaPerouseBay]

Tow-in boards are the only boards I know of where top level athletes will intentionally make the board heavier to make them perform better. 

http://www.standupzone.com/Sept08_Peahi_P10-17.pdf

[kwhilden]

Among top level SUP racers there is a consensus that light and stiff is fastest.  I know a lot of racers and no one thinks making their board heavier will make it faster.  Most are obsessed about making it lighter and probably spend a disproportionate amount of money on it. 

Very cool test results. Thanks for doing it!

I'm in agreement with everything you've said, except for the comment above. There is no question that light weight will be faster than heavier, especially in a racing situation. However stiffness may be overrated. Take a look at the Aleutian Baidarka kayak design, which is incredibly fast, and has a flexible hull that some engineers think make it faster than a rigid hull -- especially in rough water.

http://www.wolfgangbrinck.com/boats/classes/buildaleutian.html

There are some reports from early western mariners that Aleuts may have been able to get their kayaks up to planing speeds using muscle power alone. These are impossible to confirm now however, since most of the ancient baidarka knowledge was lost through western domination of their culture. The Aleuts had a lot of design innovations that may helped them reach very fast speeds, including the first ever implementation of a bulbous bow to minimize wave-making resistance (as seen on freighters and tankers today). Also, the oil-rich seal skin hulls also helped reduce frictional resistance. And, of course, the skin-on-frame construction could be made VERY light weight. George Dyson explains all of this in his book on Baidarkas.

I'm getting an idea for a Battle of the Paddle racer design.

[CMC]

I'm getting an idea for a Battle of the Paddle racer design.

You're not going to kill a seal, string his skin across a wooden frame and use his nose as a bulbous bow are you???       

I'll call Sea Shepherd now!!   

[kwhilden]

LOL. No!! You've got a sick mind

[blueplanetsurf]

Once again, I stand corrected.

The momentum of a heavier board is clearly an advantage if you are dropping into big waves, especially with offshore winds and chop on the face like at Jaws.
 
Thanks for the info on Aleutian kayaks, too.  I'm amazed at the sophisticated hull design and ultralight construction using just skin and wood, cool.  I can see how flex in the right places can make sense in rough water conditions.

I had another thought about the weight experiment and the effect of spreading out the weight on the deck.  If you are carrying cargo on the deck of a tourning board, packing it in the middle would make the board yaw more than mounting it closer to the nose or tail of the board.  Mounting cargo on the nose can get in the way of the paddle though and keeping the weight lower would make the board mode stable.  So, it makes sense to have cargo hatches that allow you to load heavier items low and towards front and back.  I'm sure the Aleutian Baidarka kayakers figured this out long ago but to me it's a new concept.   

[caseyg]

When I ordered my new Bark 14' recently, I asked Joe about going Carbon to save weight.  He has decided it isn't making enough difference to make it worth it for most people.  He said it would add $600 to go all carbon, version glass with some carbon reinforcement, and it would only save 3LBS.  He said he doesn't believe it is worth it anymore.  He even mentioned seriously considering abandoning it from his BOP boards, unless it was unlimited class, where the strenght of carbon matters.  If I remember correctly, the top speed was about the same on the glass and carbon versions of his boards, but the lighter carbon board got up to speed one stroke quicker.  That part I got from a video interview, I think.  In any case, it shocked me to think he might go away from carbon on BOP boards, but he said it was costing him too much money in damaged boards, that get left out in the sun, and that with the latest designs, it isn't making much if any difference.  I was plenty ready to pay the extra to go all carbon, if he thought it was worth it, but he talked me out of it. 

I also think the test you did (while very nice of you to go to the trouble) doesn't reflect real world scenarios.  30LBS extra if way too much for the comparission to make sense.  Worst case scenario, you have a 15lbs difference or there abouts, between the Aviso Hollow Carbon or some of the Bark or comparable race boards.  13lbs versus 28lbs or so.

[blueplanetsurf]

I also think the test you did (while very nice of you to go to the trouble) doesn't reflect real world scenarios.  30LBS extra if way too much for the comparission to make sense.  Worst case scenario, you have a 15lbs difference or there abouts, between the Aviso Hollow Carbon or some of the Bark or comparable race boards.  13lbs versus 28lbs or so.

Like Joe Bark told you, the difference in speed is very small.
I could have tested the 12'6 Amundson in AST vs the carbon/ kevlar version which is 4 lbs lighter.
The reason I used 30 lbs was to get measureable results.  The average speed difference in the sprint test was about 3 seconds for 30 lbs of extra weight.  I think it's safe to extrapolate that a weight difference of 10 lbs would result in a speed difference of 1 seconds and half a second for 5 lbs difference.  The problem is that a difference of half a second is too small to be conclusive given the variables of this test.

[caseyg]

So at the end of the day, can we agree that the weight difference has much more benefit to the out of water carrying, than the in water paddling?  Seems to me that while there may be a small difference in speed, the other factors (length, width, stabilty, volume, etc.) probably have much more to do with how fast you will go?

[1paddle2paddle]

Its up to each individual to decide what is important.  A large weight difference is easily measurable and noticeable, but if you are not racing then its up to you whether it matters if you are going 2-5% slower.

[robon]

When I ordered my new Bark 14' recently, I asked Joe about going Carbon to save weight.  He has decided it isn't making enough difference to make it worth it for most people.  He said it would add $600 to go all carbon, version glass with some carbon reinforcement, and it would only save 3LBS.  He said he doesn't believe it is worth it anymore.  He even mentioned seriously considering abandoning it from his BOP boards, unless it was unlimited class, where the strenght of carbon matters.  If I remember correctly, the top speed was about the same on the glass and carbon versions of his boards, but the lighter carbon board got up to speed one stroke quicker.  That part I got from a video interview, I think.  In any case, it shocked me to think he might go away from carbon on BOP boards, but he said it was costing him too much money in damaged boards, that get left out in the sun, and that with the latest designs, it isn't making much if any difference.  I was plenty ready to pay the extra to go all carbon, if he thought it was worth it, but he talked me out of it.  

I also think the test you did (while very nice of you to go to the trouble) doesn't reflect real world scenarios.  30LBS extra if way too much for the comparission to make sense.  Worst case scenario, you have a 15lbs difference or there abouts, between the Aviso Hollow Carbon or some of the Bark or comparable race boards.  13lbs versus 28lbs or so.

30 pounds isn't too much weight and this test helped clear a lot of things up for my interests at least.  I think once the weights were spread out, the test results were as close to real world conditions as it gets for what was involved. This test wasn't just about racing weight. Roto moulded SUPs were brought into the equation and there can be a large weight difference. The Amundson 12'6" was used in this test and in carbon it is around 28 pounds and the standard weight is 32 pounds. One plastic SUP manufacturer has a listed weight for a 12'6" model at 45 pounds,  14' model at 54 pounds, and a 16' model at 59 pounds. Sure, there could have been tests done at lighter weight increments, but 30 pounds represents the large difference one can expect with SUPs across the spectrum. Roto moulded is the extreme, but the interest is there. Also, 30 pounds in this test can represent a bag of gear, which helps tell us how much slower we can expect to be with a loaded board. The Yaw effects of placing the weights in the middle of the board as opposed to spreading the weight out across the board was useful as well.