Weight and Speed!

[Takeo]

So, here's the deal.  Many of us are not fortunate enough to be 120, 130, 140 lbs.  Perhaps we should take a poll, I'd be curious to find out the average weight here on the Zone.  Anyhow, I've been thinking about how weight plays a disadvantage in paddling...I would assume in most paddling sports.  My question is, what does a heavy paddler have to do, to be fast..aside from losing weight  .  Bigger volume board?  Bigger muscles?  Is there a point where strength will overcome the weight disadvantage?  Would a heavy paddler want a heavier board, one that keeps momentum versus one that stops on a dime or turns in sidewind.  Just some thoughts, I'm curious to hear yours.

[southwesterly]

220 pounds.
Which is just like a 180 pounder dragging one of these behind him.

[PonoBill]

I wrote an extensive article on this, there's a fair amount of data available and some well supported heuristic formulas relating weight to speed for human powered vehicles. The bottom line is that lighter is faster. When guys like Dave K and Chuck P win they do so against a slightly stacked deck. I'll dig up the article, I don't remember if I published it, it was a lot of work and I might not have finished it. I'm in the middle of a KeNalu redesign to support better video streaming and do a better job on product reviews, so it might take a while.

[paddledaddy]

215 pounds of pure doughnut! Doh!

[stoneaxe]

260...lots of muscle...still slow.... .....and I LOVE old fashioned doughnuts.

[Takeo]

We got the Big Boys checking in, where's all the little guys?  When I see my lighter friends jump on my boards and glide around without even sinking it, it just makes me realize how much harder I need to work at building my paddling strength to compensate for the weight disadvantage.  How heavy is Danny Ching? 

Yup, guys like Dave and Chuck are definitely an exception which gets me thinking that conditioning, strength, and of course skill is what helps them overcome the weight difference.  Does Chuck paddle a higher volume board?

[Pureadrenalin]

Muscle and strength is not a big factor a good example is Conner Baxter look at his frame and he is fast as hell. No offense but it is what it is. Another good example is look at a lot of the top paddlers in the community they aint muscular structured big guys they look more like a swimmers physique. Kai Bartlett says in one of his Scorpius videos  that strength is secondary your technique is everything and you only become faster once you have the ability to read the bumps/water.  A paddler only can get stronger and faster to a certain extent but when your abilities to connect bumps more consistent throughout a given run that is the advantage. I myself paddle with guys heavier than I am and they have like 30 lbs on me and they beat the crap out of me on a run I am not saying I am a slow paddler but these guys have more experience than I do reading bumps. Than again that is downwind I am behind at times my favorite is upwind training anyone can do downwind.

[Takeo]

Ninja,
Thanks for sharing your input.  I'm just wondering how much weight impacts a paddlers speed, lets say without bumps, like in flatwater where there is no wind and bump to assit.  On the same board, does the lighter paddler have the advantage?  I guess I'm asking because as I strive to work at my paddling speed, should weight loss be a part of the overall plan?  You had that thread on weight loss, how has the weight loss helped you as a paddler?  Better balance?  Less sinking of the board?  Just curious.

[Pureadrenalin]

Ninja,
Thanks for sharing your input.  I'm just wondering how much weight impacts a paddlers speed, lets say without bumps, like in flatwater where there is no wind and bump to assit.  On the same board, does the lighter paddler have the advantage?  I guess I'm asking because as I strive to work at my paddling speed, should weight loss be a part of the overall plan?  You had that thread on weight loss, how has the weight loss helped you as a paddler?  Better balance?  Less sinking of the board?  Just curious.

My first hand experience yes its a big advantage. Its not only losing the weight that has a big advantage but the overall conditioning that comes along with losing weight has to be the biggest advantage you could gain. Not many here will talk about how they train and talk serious about proper nutrition because everyone thinks its a big secret. If it was such a big secret WTF they made the computer for there is no secret to anything anymore. SOS(Stuck on Stupid).  The bottom line IMO no one wants to talk training or here about training but everyone like come faster. OK they key is knowing when to apply power at every stroke and when to apply power/ speed at a given stroke with experience knowing when to apply these factors in any type of conditions then the paddler will be on top of his/hers game. More practice makes true understanding of these simple factors. Also you don't have to lose weight to get stronger you could also maintain your weight and do some strength and conditioning training. Majority of people can loose weight but to maintain there strength and power now that is the biggest problem. Talking easy doing the training and sticking to the nutrition game not to many can do.

[jdmotes]

 I slide in at around 175 to 180 (depending on how many of those damn, great tasting donuts I have engorged)... Never have raced but might have to soon. Asking the bossman to send down one of the new NSRace126 for me to demo and sample to shops. Racing just starting to gain some momentum here in N Fla...         Later,                   JD

[Takeo]

Ninja,
Thanks again for your open and honest opinion.  I noticed that with all the paddlers here, there is not a whole lot of discussion on the finer aspects of becoming a better and faster paddler.  Perhaps you are right, that it's that advantage that some want to keep, or maybe many of us on here aren't that technical, I dunno.   

So, I'm gathering that yes, losing weight does help, but so does better conditioning, balance, and technique.  I've been paddling for about 7 months, don't think I've lost any significant weight but I have gotten better and faster (not fast enough).  As I paddle though, I am learning things like what works when there is fine tight chop, or smooth rolling swells, or side wind.  Like you said, it's about knowing when to apply what...and how! 

Dave's articles has been very helpful with at least the basics on the tahitian paddling technique.  He's also talked about breathing.  These two tips alone has helped me the most in the last few months. 

[surfcowboy]

I'm 135 lbs - 5'8" and if I don't win something this year I want my money back from this board. Oh wait, it's free.

Seriously though, I was a small kind of skinny, out of shape guy and not fast, but as I paddle more, I see what Ninja means. Technique makes for a lot of your speed. That said, in a 12'6" class, I'm gonna have an advantage over the guy hauling the donuts. (maybe the picture of the year, by the way).

I'm starting to time myself now and it'll be interesting to see how training helps because I don't really change my weight much, (where do you go from 135? lol) I just change muscle mass for fat. So all I kind of have is training and technique. I'll see if I can track some times over the next few weeks.

[Takeo]

I have realized that in the past 2 months, since I had my Garmin, I have increased my average speed by about .4-.5 mph.  It has nothing to do with weight loss, but more conditioning, strength, and definitely technique.  I'm far from being fast, but it's good to see the progress.  With the ocean and wind condtions varying, it's hard to get good solid data, but overall, I can see the changes, plus feel it when I paddle. 

Anyone else tracking their speeds?

[Argosi]

I think that there is an ideal weight for each board length. I'm talking about flatwater with no wind just to reduce the number of variables.

As the board length increases, the ideal body weight/strength to paddle that board probably increases.

Since boards with a longer waterline have a faster hull speed (the top cruising speed a very good paddler can maintain for a given waterline length), longer boards will be faster than shorter boards in general (not rocket science).

However, it takes more work/strength to keep a longer board at its hull speed. This means that once you get to the unlimited class, stronger/heavier paddlers should have an advantage over the lightweights because the lightweights don't have the strength to maintain the board at hull speed for a long time (say at least 6 or 7 miles). So just as the lighter paddlers have an advantage in the 12'6" class, heavier/stronger paddlers with the right power to weight ratio will have an advantage in the unlimited class. If I were to guess, 150-180 lbs might be the ideal weight to power range for the 12'6" class (assuming the paddler has very little fat at that weight). For the unlimited class in flatwater, the ideal weight would be higher but I don't have enough data points to suggest a range.

This should hold true since it's very very hard to paddle a board above its hull speed for any length of time. So it comes down to what weight/strength level is best suited to powering the board to its hull speed for the distance of the race.

When you get to the really elite levels, there can be exceptions.  I have seen a race result from Danny Ching showing he paddled  slightly above hull speed for several miles but that's only possible with the best paddlers in the world. For most recreational paddlers like me, I can only dream of paddling my 12'6" at hull speed for the duration of a 6 or 7 mile race.

Another thing to consider is how the paddler's weight is distributed. Is it dense and muscular like Danny Ching (5'8" tall, 178lbs) or tall and lanky like Connor Baxter. Height and reach may give Connor better leverage over the paddle.

In real world conditions, other variables can easily be more important though. For example, ability to read and connect waves, surfing skill, strategy, local knowledge, etc. When Chuck won the BOP a couple of years ago (12'6" class), there was a strong wind which made for brutal upwind legs. Chuck's strength gave him the advantage over lighter guys in these conditions. Chuck himself said that if it were glassy, the lighter guys with narrower boards would have the edge.

[PonoBill]

Pretty much exactly right Argosi. the two big factors limiting speed are friction and hull speed. They are not related. Hull speed is the speed that the board starts trying to climb over it's bow wave, and it's a direct function of length. Friction is a function of wetted surface and shape. Longer boards generally have more friction but a higher hull speed.

The question initially was how does weight affect speed. To answer that question you have too look at those two factors and hold everything else equal. You might assume two paddlers with equal strength and technical ability. Better yet, the same paddler carrying some added weight.

I had an email discussion about all this with Dave Kalama that sparked my initial article. He forwarded me this info from one of the guys on the Livestrong team:

I found a rowing study where they used a physics ratio of “the percentage loss of speed is one sixth the percentage increase in mass.” From that I compared Molokai Times between Livestrong and Shell and found an interesting correlation...

Using a 95kg boat (paddler plus boat) they determined that for every 5kg of additional weight they added 31.68 seconds per hour to their time.

Assuming a race where the only difference between teams was the weight of the combined crew members: Livestrong a 532kg crew (6@195lbs) vs Shell Va'a a 477kg crew (6@175lbs) has a difference of 55kg.

Adapting for the difference in weight ratio 55kg/5kg= 11 * 31.68seconds per hour= 348.48seconds per hour or 5.8mins/hour loss in time. So based on crew weight alone Livestrong would be losing 5.8mins/hr raced.

Over a 4.66 hour race the heavier crew would have a slower time of: 5.8mins/hr * 4.66hours= 27.028mins

2009 Molokai Hoe result
Shell vaa 4hr 40min (4.66hr)
Livestrong 5hr 8min (28mins behind)


Heres the link to the physics behind the study.
or
http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/physics/weight.html#section7

Heres the link to the 95kg boat study.
or
http://www.fennkayaks.co.nz/weight.htm

The math is right in the example above, but the interpretation of the formula is incorrect. It didn't adjust the likely increase in power associated with the higher weight of the Livestrong crew. If you do the adjustment you still get the lighter crew winning, it's just not quite so hopeless.

Of course none of this reflects technique, or will to win, or any of the many other factors.

Oh, and incidentally, there have been several articles on paddling technique in Ke Nalu, and Dave's blog has some great stuff on technique:

http://www.davidkalama.com/2010/03/paddle-techniques-the-catch-2/

http://www.davidkalama.com/2010/04/paddle-techniques-applying-power/

http://www.davidkalama.com/2010/04/paddle-techniques-recover/

I think these three articles are just great. I re-read them frequently to tune up my paddling.