Made in the USA... Do you even care?

[corran]

"well the USA pollutes so we are just as bad as China" or "there is political unfairness in The USA so we are just as equally bad as China, so any criticism of China is invalid"

Actually what I'm saying is: "well the USA polluted so lets help china learn from our mistakes so they can pollute less while they grow" or "there is political unfairness in The USA so lets help countries like china learn from our mistakes so that ALL men (not just US born men) can be free and equal"

That's more how I see it ;-)

I am very global... I see the WHOLE planet as mine, as ours... but I also live in N america now and want to continue to live there. All my familly are now naturalised americans... so yes I do have a dog in this fight... its just that my dog has fought on many different soils before...

Corran

[corran]

Strand and Corran,
Both of you have very interesting points of view. As I was reading your posts I forgot I was in the SU Zone website and thought I was reading columns in the Wall Street Journal. WOW!! Thanks for the education.

One of my weaknesses is that I "LOVE" this sort of debate - its stimulating and makes you think about your views on things as other equally (or better) informed people present different, or opposing, or even corroborating arguments. It makes you question what you know, sometimes change your mind, sometimes reaffirm your view... (as long as you always have an open mind to hear others)...

Keeps the mind active.

Corran

[PonoBill]

Well made points Corran. You too Tim. It's a complex world. I don't understand people who don't understand that. There aren't many things that are purely good. True love and homegrown tomatoes, maybe. Trading with China is a lot better than exchanging nuclear weapons with them, which is pretty much what I figured we'd eventually be doing twenty or so years ago. The growing openness will change them, but not as much as one might like--the government is benefiting greatly from it's successes.

Your one really weak point Corran is talking about Kyoto. It didn't get signed because it was a stupid accord. So stupid that the decision not to sign was unanimous in the Senate. When did you last see that? Of course China would sign (though they didn't)--they didn't have to do anything. No one should bring up Kyoto anymore other than as an example why not to send the B team to negotiate global treaties.

Anywhere new infrastructure is being built  it's easy to adopt new approaches. No one is stringing copper phone wires in third world countries. You put up cell towers. The third world's ability to design for that is not a matter of a superior moral position about copper use, and neither is recycling. It's a market decision. Retrofit is much more difficult and much slower, but it comes.

Honestly, saying we should look in the mirror to see the offenders is simply preaching to ones self. Ineffective, irritating and untrue. The US didn't become the largest polluter by using too much toilet paper or driving SUVs. We did it by building the worlds largest and most innovative economy. But we did it at a time when sensibilities and goals were very different. Things need to change, but in the US it will be like rebuilding a car while it's running down the highway. Not easy, but we'll get it done.

For example, I've been working on some designs for short-haul transport. Of course a major part of the design is the ability to carry at least two people and two SUP downwinder boards. It's easy to build an efficient low-speed electric vehicle if there are no other vehicles around, but when your design has to give the occupants a prayer of surviving a twenty MPH head on encounter with even a Prius the efficiency is a lot more difficult. The infrastructure works against innovation.

[Jbay]

Corran please do not take this wrong.  I enjoyed your Hawaii posts this winter but you are sinking quickly on this and that other recent discussion.  The further you explain the worse it is sounding. 

[RL]

This is a subject that greatly interests me, so much so that it inspired me to sign-up and chime it after reading this informative forum for well over a year.

What has surprised me is the direction this subject has taken, the China/USA debate. Good food for thought but not the most important concerns when making my buying decisions.

My interest concerns the performance and durability of the boards and whether it's better or even necessary to sacrifice performance for the durability of a molded board. And for me this applies to regular surfboards as well as stand-up boards. I have had many custom boards over the years so I understand the benefits. But what has become almost unacceptable to me is how easy standard boards are damaged. I have felt for many years that the surfboard industry was way behind the times. I can't think of any other recreational industry that produces products that are as fragile as standard surfboards. But I really love and respect the craftsmen and the history of their work and of course the feel of a really nice board made just for me. I just wish they could be made more bulletproof.

Regarding my purchase, I am 6'6" which usually results in custom boards but in doing my homework as well as testing a couple of boards I came across Starboard which hit the nail on the head for what I was looking for. I ended up getting the Big Easy which at 12 x 32 was the size I wanted for my first stand-up. The Starboard also has the construction I wanted as well as a good reputation as I had never heard of the company before I started my search. I live in Orange County and had to go to Santa Barbara to get the boards, my girlfriend also got one, she's 6' tall. The boards have been fantastic, really perfect for us and we couldn't be happier.

In the end I guess I want what I feel is the best product for my money. I wish that was a US made board but I feel this Starboard and others like it are a fantastic product and I don't see a problem regarding where they are made.

[paddlesurf.net]

Made in the USA... do you even care?

I do- I like the whole process of talking about a shape, deciding what it'll look like (paint), ordering it up, waiting for it and then walking into the shape room the day it's done and checking it out. That's part of surfing right there and I was a surfer way before stand up came along.

That's just me.

Does that mean that boards mass produced don't work or suck? Nope- I think some of the PSH shapes look killer and I'd love to try one sometime (the ones I've tried worked well). I just like the tradition of getting boards made for me by a person I've communicated with for many years.

Plus, hearing that a shaper like Roger Hinds is making the Leper a custom perks my ears up and makes me want to see it- hearing that Luke Egan's dad is shaping stand-o's down under makes me interested, hearing that Rusty just redesigned a stand-o so it's more pulled in the nose for my friend Kelly makes me interested.... I don't get that same feeling about hearing that somebody just picked up a mass produced board. Again, that's just me and my situation.

On the pollution thing... I do what I can with what I've got- do it yourself activism. If that means I'm cleaning up the McDonalds trash that some tourist just littered all over the beach that I live at, that's what I do. Really, if you want to surf without hurting the environment, get rid of your board, pad, paddle, leash, wetsuit and body surf... naked. Without fins. (Credit for that goes to my shaper).

[Roundhouse]

Here on Florida's East Coast I tried to find a local shaper who understood SUP. I saw big longboards with grip pads stuck all over them. There may be some good shapers out there but I have yet to see a local custom product that can stand up.

Boards don't hold up like mine did 45 years ago and these production boards are a lot tuffer than epoxy boards the local shapers produce.

Maybe this will change over time and maybe I will get good enough to worry about a few pounds and the latest shape. Right now I'm having enough challenge paddling out on an overheard beachbreak day and not beating the hell out of my rails trying to catch a wave.

[Strand Leper]

Made in the USA... do you even care?

I do- I like the whole process of talking about a shape, deciding what it'll look like (paint), ordering it up, waiting for it and then walking into the shape room the day it's done and checking it out. That's part of surfing right there and I was a surfer way before stand up came along.

That's just me.

Does that mean that boards mass produced don't work or suck? Nope- I think some of the PSH shapes look killer and I'd love to try one sometime (the ones I've tried worked well). I just like the tradition of getting boards made for me by a person I've communicated with for many years.

Plus, hearing that a shaper like Roger Hinds is making the Leper a custom perks my ears up and makes me want to see it- hearing that Luke Egan's dad is shaping stand-o's down under makes me interested, hearing that Rusty just redesigned a stand-o so it's more pulled in the nose for my friend Kelly makes me interested.... I don't get that same feeling about hearing that somebody just picked up a mass produced board. Again, that's just me and my situation.

On the pollution thing... I do what I can with what I've got- do it yourself activism. If that means I'm cleaning up the McDonalds trash that some tourist just littered all over the beach that I live at, that's what I do. Really, if you want to surf without hurting the environment, get rid of your board, pad, paddle, leash, wetsuit and body surf... naked. Without fins. (Credit for that goes to my shaper).

While Mr. Stamps is quite the fine shaper, that line was first uttered by (I believe) Grubby Clark in addressing the movement to "green" surfboards.  Classic line and perfect for this discussion.

Tim

[paddlesurf.net]

I stand corrected! 

[Tom]

I don't have a problem buying from China, but always try to buy local & USA made when possible. I think the question here is really production vs custom. There really aren't many production board that are made in the U.S. As a matter of fact, it is really hard to buy any product that is made in the U.S.

I am a happy owner of a PlusOne custom, made in San Diego by an Ocean Beach/Sunset Cliffs shaper. I feel that it is a much better board for me than any productiuon (China) board that I could have gotten. There were several factors in buying a custom. First, I will not buy SUP, custom or prodution, that is shaped by a shaper that doesn't either SUP himself, or has a team of sponsered SUP'ers, and has been shaping SUPs for a number of years. Second, I know that a customs resale value will not be as high as a production (China) board, so I need to know that it is exactly what I want and one that I can ride forever. I learned what I want and what I don't want by perviously owning several prodution boards and demo riding several others. Thirdly, I am luck to live in an area where there are a number of very good custom SUPs being produced. And finally, I've been surfing and SUPing for enough years to be able to shift through some of the hype and differenciate that from the the true quality.

[heave]

I've been riding my custom board for about a year now and it seems like I already have several people around here that are very interested to buy it used whenever I choose to sell it.  I'd have to make me a new one first and I don't really feel like I would need to change much of anything about it.  New boards are nice but so is only having to need just one board that has that lasting impression.       

[PonoBill]

I think I can say that I've tried more boards than most folks, since I launched Ke Nalu by testing fifty boards with a few friends. In the years since I've tried a lot more. I've found a lot of production boards that I liked a lot, but I will ALWAYS have a custom board.  Spoiled.

[Rockbottom]

It sems to me that there is an assumption that because it's homegrown, it's automaticly better quality.  Possibly, but what makes it "better" Do we use a higher grade of eps, different density?    My friends and I ordered EPS blanks from US Blanks  with a custom rocker and stringer in them , 1.5 lb desity for $200 a pop before shipping.   I heard from an China insider that blanks over there cost but $5.00 to make.   Does China use the cheapest epoxy available?   I paid right at $100 for a 1.5 gallon kit, but I've seen garbage epoxy on e-bay for $30 a kit.   The workers in China build enough boards to know what they're doing, and vidually, the boards  look pretty good when done.   So is the quality disparity in the materials, or just that a $500 popout has a poor design as the shapers just looked at photos of other boards on the internet for they're shaping research?
    Just curious.

Gordon

[Rick Kane]

I was at my local ding repair shop getting some work done on one of my SUPs.  I noticed a couple of popular molded boards on the rack and asked what they were getting repaired.  The repair guy told me how the boards got damaged and then proceeded to school me on all of the scary stuff that is hidden underneath that beautiful paint job.  He said he's seen quad fin setups where 3 of the fins have anchors and one doesn't.  He's seen cat hair and saw dust in the epoxy, and voids in the foam the size of a pool ball, filled in with resin.  The reason they paint those boards is because those cheap blanks they use instantly turn yellow in the sunlight.  They are using crap materials and covering it all up with paint. 

Now I say crap, but let's face it, the boards are strong and durable for the most part.  I'm not anti production boards, I think I'm anti painted boards.  I want to see the stringer, I want to see the fin box, I want to see how well the glasser did.  I like a board that flexes under my feet when I turn. The pop outs seem way too stiff to surf well.  You have to change your whole approach to a bottom turn.  I'm wondering why we, the SUP community, were so quick to accept this type of molded construction.  It really isn't that more durable than regular epoxy.  It is harder to fix and while many think it is lighter, it is generally heavier than a well glassed epoxy. 

As to the Eco stuff, I have nothing against Corran, but he is full of it, as these posts and others have pointed out.  He has used being green as a sales gimmick.  By the way Corran are you from South Africa, Canada, France, or the USA?  You've mentioned all of them in past posts.  Not that it matters, but if you're not American, you might not want to use the word WE when referring to American things.  Just saying...

Good info here guys.  I look forward to reading more.

Rick

[Dwight (DW)]

We can't really say one is better than the other.

I installed gore-tex vents in a high end US made custom, that had a 1.5 # White Hot Foam core. EPS beads went flying everywhere. I poked around in the drilled hole to check the fusion quality. The beads were loose, very round, and showed little sign of fusion. It looked similar to the cheap extra light construction grade EPS I (and others) use in race boards.

When I installed quad boxes in my production board, built in Thailand by Cobra, the EPS was the highest quality I had ever seen. The fusion was so tight, every bead had become a polygon, with absolutely no sign of daylight between any beads. The beads were so tightly bonded, there were no EPS beads flying in the air when cutting the holes.

By the way, windsurfers, have for years painted boards to hide the carbon, kevlar, and divinycell, not due to some devious plan to hide poor quality. I'm not saying there are not some poor quality boards built overseas, but to think all are poor is just not true.

In the end, I don't trust marketing BS from any company, anywhere. I only trust what I know first hand to be real.