Made in the USA... Do you even care?

[corran]

to see the real polluter, look in the mirror.

Don't buy into that BS.

I work for a huge world wide engineering company building chemical and textile plants world wide. China is our biggest customer.

Clients in China make us delete the pollution control parts of our plants to save a few bucks, because they can get away with it. You won't see that done with our US projects.

Leave Beijing and visit the plant sites in cities unknown to westerners, and see what I've seen. It's shocking.

OF COURSE this happens, and its inexcusable... but JUST as much, if not more (but different), happens at home.

If memory serves me correctly, at the last big environmental summit in (was it sweeden - stockholm - I forget and am too lazy to check) the USA refused to get on board with the major proposals. China was ready to get on and do thier bit.

China is NOT perfect. FAR FROM it. But it is not the black pan that the USA claims it is (or rather, no more than the black kettle that the USA is). In fact, its the opposite if anything.

Which is sad because the USA should be the LEADER - not the most prolific advocate of the opposite.

Corran

[H2Oman]

I was speaking with one of the partners of FireWire surfboards today in Venice.  They've moved all their production to Thialand, in a factory they built, in order to stay in business.  The San Diego shop is still producing boards for the team riders.  He said it came down to "stay in business or go out of business".  This commentary from a former employee came up in an internet search.

It's difficult to judge when you're not paying the bills.  I agree with trying to keep $$ in your country and more importantly, your community.  You need to make a profit to keep doors open, and I'm guessing no board manufacturer is sleeping on piles of excess money at night.

I'm glad to see folks like QuickBlade and a few other doing their best to keep things "Made In America" and I won't fault anyone for starting a business and making a living as long as it's ethical.  Live the dream.

[corran]

Hi beaglebudy

Much of what you say is true. It really is. But much of it is also misleading too. China has 4 or 5 times our population yet their pollution is less then half ours (I believe  - going by memory here). You say its ok for the USA to have nearly 10 times the pollution output per capita because our standard of living is higher? That makes no sense at all. We are a first world nation - THE first world nation - and should be a beacon for all others to follow. Meanwhile the USA refuses to sign the Kyoto accord, was the main stumbling block at Stockholm last year....

Is China perfect? Oh god no. They have a long way to go. Thats for sure. But they are also trying, and they are trying from a starting position that is far behind the USA and they are doing so in leap frog jumps.  Counter to what your press tells you the people there do care, and they do think about this more and more. Its just not something that can be put in place overnight.

You say that its wrong for the Chinese to recycle because the motivation is economical. Who cares what the motivation is. That's like saying a man who is kind to others because he wants to go to heaven is not as good as the man who is kind because he wants to be kind for its own sake. In either case hes a kind man. I don't care what his personal motivations are - its the right thing to do. China recycles their stuff, and they take most of ours too. And that's the right thing to do.

Yes, Chinese people buy cell phones and computers and running shoes made in china... owned by US companies. Ultimately the profits still come back to the USA (or Europe etc). Granted, it is the blue collar worker that looses out in that deal, but the money is flowing into the USA and US jobs are moving from blue collar to service and sales... we need to adapt with the times just like others do. Farmers move to factories there, factory workers to offices here and so on. Sure, the USA can remain a 2nd world industrial nation that it was in the 20th centuary... but we have (chosen) to evolve beyond that though out way of life - demanding more for less. That implicitly implies that manufacturing will go elsewhere where labor is cheap. We own more today because it costs less because its made elsewhere. You can't eat you cake and have it.

I disagree with many of China's way of doing things - setting the RMB against the US$ for example. I disagree with many of the USA's and Canada's too. No country is perfect. But this is a global economy. it just is. And no amount of wishfull thinking is going to change that any more that you could stop the internet. Its simply too late. The thing to do now is find balance.

I guess the global economy is like a marriage... its full of trial and error, mistakes and successes, hard work and also rewards. There are help books and talk shows to help us in our journey through it, but in the end it comes down to the players to do their best and to honestly try to do the right thing, even if behind it all self interest will always play its part.

But as any broken family will tell you, divorce and odd Saturdays with the kinds is not the ideal solution to a troubled marriage. Hard work and compromise is. This is where we are with this global family of countries we have. We need to do our best to find our way. We're all making mistakes. Some of us had a head start. The USA is a twice married and divorced 45yr old with lots of experience and lots of money, china is a young inexperienced 20yr old that was woed by all the USA had to offer - its now up to us as the more experienced partner to help guide her, and teach her from our past mistakes without lecturing or being condescending.

Anyway, that's my take on it. And my opinion, like all this good discussion we're having and all its valid points, is flawed too.

Corran

PS  -as a matter of interest, while I am defending China here, we make our Eco boards in China because this is the best place to make them for ecological reasons (and still, economical, though this is changing fast). BUT, we make some of our plastic boards in the USA and some in Europe for various reasons, including the reduction of emissions in shipping through being able to ship locally, encourage local economies, take advantage of technologies developed by various factories in each region etc - as Drake Blax said in Moonraker - "the conquest [of space] is the concern of all humanity and so it is only logical to seek out the best that each nation in the world has to offer".  

[mikelefty]

The last I saw, the leaders of China are a bunch of un elected totalitarian commies, able to fool the most gullible of Americans. This thread is indicative of this, I buy BARK. The CHICOMS are polluters and those who try to rationalize they aren't, have their head in the sand and their asses in the air...figures, we Americans are polluters but not even close to the CHICOMS, I will continue to support my American brothers.

[jd]

PS  -as a matter of interest, while I am defending China here, we make our Eco boards in China because this is the best place to make them for ecological reasons

All of your China made boards are put on a freighter and shipped somewhere.  There is nothing ecological about it.  Just as as the materials for a pair of blue jeans are sourced from numerous different locations around the world shipped numerous places just to make a single pair of pants.  Are you aware that the shipping lanes of the world can be seen from satellite photos based on the pollution that these ships produce?  There is nothing ecological about manufacturing products on one side of the world and selling them on the other. 

You talk about how wonderful China is and it is so far advanced regarding cutting down on pollution, but the stories abound in the news about all the ecological disasters throughout China.  Furthermore, we need only look to the crap that comes to our borders from China, with products that are full of lead and other dangerous toxins in children's toys, candy etc.  It is so bad that once the Chinese are caught putting toxic levels of lead into their products, they take it out and substitute it for more dangerous materials such as cadmium. 

It is a travesty that making a buck and in turn propping up China's economy has the added benefit of sending this toxic stuff here to poison our children.

It's funny that the people who defend making stuff in China are the same ones who benefit the most economically.

The global economy argument is made solely by those who benefit the most, those with the capital, while the labor must suffer for it.  While I receiving my degree in economics from UC Berkeley the justification for it was well the labor can just go back to school and learn something else.  Easier said than done.

[heave]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they only ride boards made in a particular overseas factory.  The famous brand name and the price they paid is something that might be herd.  Yeah I'll admit it, I went to McD's the other day and enjoyed a couple of tasty cheeseburgers off of their dollar menu.            

[Strand Leper]

Dudes,

Heavy stuff and a good discussion... I too get pretty freaking hacked off when they say "look in the mirror" based on people and not productivity ... this discussion reminds me of reading (and arguing about) Porter's Competitve Advantage of Nations oh those many years ago in B school.

I buy the board that lets me surf the best.  I am a selfish ****ing surfer.  I want to surf as well as I possibly can.  If it was made in Huntington Beach, groovy!  If it was made in China... well that's cool I guess, but how long is it going to take me to get another one if (when) I break it... If it was made in North Korea or Burma... well, I have to draw the line somewhere...

Right now I am waiting for one of Corran'w new 7'0"'s from Commieland and waiting for a custom super secret rocket ship board (actually two, a small one and a step up) from my genius shaper buddy Roger Hinds fresh from R&D deep in the jungles of Brazil for a month... no, seriously, he was in Brazil shaping lots of boards, surfing, observing, and honing his craft.

Tim

[river]

All I can say is one of the biggest environmental issues resides in the USA right now.  Shame on BP!

[corran]

Hey JD

Please note that I'm not saying "props" to China. Not at all. What I AM saying is that we (Americans) need to look inwards before shouting outwards.

Is thier politcal system perfect? Heck no. Is America's... well, while it is a democracy (kinda) again hell no. Is any? NO. Could theirs be improved? YES. Could Ours? YES. and so it rages on and on and on.

Are they pollutors? YES

Are we? Yes. EVEN MORE SO.

Does shipping from china by boat cause C)2 emissions? YES. Does trucking from california to N Carolina. Yes. Just as much in fact.

So, unless you're making your board In cali and only selling in cali, or making it in n Carolina and selling only in N carolina, the shipping thing is moot. I sell worldwide. No matter what I have shipping. At least now I'm not shipping blanks and bamboo fiber to Canada, making the board and then shipping it ti Japan afterwards like I was before. I cut out a whole step of shipping.

is anyone getting rich making boards in China. I sure as shit ain't. I guarantee you that you make more money working at your job than I do at mine.

Is it perfect? NO ITS NOT. But we are consumer. NO matter what I'm making boards and you're buying them, and so all we can do is try to have the lowest impact, and so far THIS is the solution. Its not ideal, but its the best thing going.

And again, MOST people are NOT willing to spend more. You can complain all you want about this or that in toys etc, but at the end of the day the REASON this stuff comes into the USA and other places is BECAUSE you're buying at wallmart at the "price choppers sale". How do you think they cut that price?

I'm quite happy to make my boards in the USA (assuming I could recycled and the natural materials I require, and right now  I can't!). Are YOU willing to pay 30% more? I bet you're not, and if a few are, MOST are not and that's the bottom line isn't it?

Its no good pointing at people who make their goods offshore when the end consumer wanting to pay less is the main reason it happens.

Corran

(ps - hows that computer you're using to post here that you bought that was made offshore, and that internet cable that was made off shore, so you could make this posting that's hosted on a server that was made offshore, treating you? Called them recently to complain?)

[Strand Leper]

Corran,

Another post with good information. 

But the moral equivalency between China and the U.S. doesn't work.  The Representative Republic that is the United States is the least worst government that exists IMHO.  The United States is not perfect, but we don't arrest people for speakiing out against the government, for attending a non-state sponsored church... we don't harvest organs from our prisoners... we don't execute people for speaking out against the government... we havent's been bullying our democratic neighbor and constantly threatening to invade... we don't erect internet firewalls to keep people from freely exchanging ideas... we don't force our mothers to abort their children if they have more than one... No, the US isn't perfect, but to say our imperfection lessens the moral repugnancy of China belies logic.

Tim

[corran]

I agree whole heatedly... meaning that China is a darker shade of gray than the USA. Both are still gray albeit at different ends of the greytone spectrum ;-)

I would never argue FOR the chinese system. Its wrong in every conceivable way. That being said its 100% today than it was 5 years ago, and 100% better than 5 years before that and so on, and as the people and government here are exposed to the outside more and more, so thier tollerance of it lessens, their demand for change increases and so on.

LEAVING china to its own devises is not the answer.CO-operation, influence and incentives is how you get change. You catch more bees with honey...

South Africa where I'm from is a classic example of a country and system that can change, radically, when just the right influences are brought to bear. That is happening in China.. there is no doubt about it.

Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not suggesting that China is an eldorado or anything like it. its not. it has many serious issues. But it also has its strong and good points. For me trying to be an eco company, for the average consumer trying to get a cheaper product, for global economy and increased markets abroad (30 yrs ago Japan was the CHina of today - a blueprint economically - and today they are a major consumer society. Had America shied away from buying "made in japan" that at a time was synonymous with bad quality, bad working conditions etc, they would never have developed into what they are today - a country whos business is good for America and Europe).

China is rife with issues, but one by one they are being addressed, voluntarily or through outside pressure. This is the way to do it - not to abandon the giant, but to encourage and help it become something good.

Anyway, thats my opinion lol

Corran

[maui wave warrior]

Strand and Corran,
Both of you have very interesting points of view. As I was reading your posts I forgot I was in the SU Zone website and thought I was reading columns in the Wall Street Journal. WOW!! Thanks for the education.

[beaglebuddy]

Mr. Corran,
I have one main point, go ahead and make you boards in China like everyone else, but please don't try to claim it is better for the environment and our economy it really rings as disingenuous not to mention one hell of a reach.

[beaglebuddy]

The gross domestic product (GDP) is a measure of a country's overall economic output. It is the market value of all final goods and services made within the borders of a country in a year.
The GDP of the USA is over three times that of China yet their Co2 output is slightly higher than ours.
This tells us in simple terms that the Chicoms pollute far more than we do per unit of production.
This globalism they have sold us is rubbish.
The eventual goal is to make every nation equal financially.
I for one do not want this country to become the equal of Vietnam or Bolivia.
It's supposed to be free trade but in reality every one practices protectionist trade policies against the US while they manipulate their currency to favor their exports.
In the short term we gained by getting lots of cheap goods, but slowly we have sold ourselves out and now suddenly they own us and only common sense tells you that the policies of the USA are influenced by the debt we owe the Chinese.
Corran, you are trying to make the classic moral equivalency argument that goes like this, "well the USA pollutes so we are just as bad as China" or "there is political unfairness in The USA so we are just as equally bad as China, so any criticism of China is invalid"
Sorry, not buyin' it.
Corran you are from South Africa not sure where you live now but it is clear you are a multi-national type of person, you probably don't really have a dog in this fight, if the US goes down the tubes you will probably just go back home or to Brazil or somewhere.
Most of the rest of us have deep roots here and we are here thru thick or thin, we don't have another nation to hop to if things get bad.
We are not happy about seeing turd world dictatorships built up at our own expense.
With real unemployment around 20% we need all those jobs.

[corran]

Mr. Corran,
I have one main point, go ahead and make you boards in China like everyone else, but please don't try to claim it is better for the environment and our economy it really rings as disingenuous not to mention one hell of a reach.

its the PRIMARY reason that I do make them in china. The price differance is nearly not worth the aggravation.

So sorry to burst your bubble, but the NO 1 reason I make them in china IS enviromental - recycled materials available to me, all offcuts immediately recycled, and the natural fibers grow here. Making the boards here I reduced the carbon footprint by nearly 60% over regular boards!

In the USA... blanks are virgin, offcuts go into a dump and I need to ship the bamboo fiber all the way here... so that I can reship my board somewhere else afterward.

Yes, there IS a financial benifit too, but my PRIMARY reason is absolutely environmental.

Corran