Made in the USA... Do you even care?

[Rick Kane]

Forgive me if this post is a bit of a rant. I've been reading a lot of posts here lately about this factory and that factory.  People having their shapes ripped off, or at least "referenced".  There was a post where two companies were bad mouthing each other, even though their boards were made by the same factory. My question is, why is it that the SUP industry is so accepting of Chinese/Thailand/Taiwan mass produced surfboards? Our short board brethren cry bloody murder if you are riding a pop out, but here it is considered the opposite.  In SUP, if you inquire about a hand shaped, hand glassed, made in the USA paddleboard you are met with, "I wouldn't trust a custom, they don't have the same resale value.  Or "Popouts are the result of hundreds of prototypes.  They are a safer bet then a custom."  Are you kidding me?  Since when did a mass produced SUP that looks more like a windsurfer then a surfboard become the standard?  Since when did we need to start painting over our glass jobs to hide all the crap that lies underneath?  Why is it that a shop is more likely to sell a popout made over seas than a board made in the US?  Is it all about money?  Is that the deal? 

I want to know from all of you, if your favorite SUP manufacturer said, "We are only going to make boards in the US (or their country or origin) and our prices are going to have to increase to do it", would you still support them?  Would you pay more for something made in America, or would you rather have the lower price?  I've seen it work in other industries,  where companies have insisted on keeping their manufacturing here in the US.  Most are respected for it.  Jackson Kayak comes to mind.  They make everything just outside of Nashville TN.  They are idolized by the white water industry.  Nearly all of Jackson's competition is produced overseas.  Yet they have made it not only work, but Jackson is number one in US market share.  I wonder if C4 or Naish or Starboard or any of the other companies did the same thing, if they could still be profitable.  Would you buy their products at a higher price? 

If this was any other industry, I wouldn't be bothered about this so much. But this is surfing and it doesn't make sense to me that surfboards are being made in big factories in China, by people who have never even surfed.  This isn't even an issue of American made.  I'd be stoked to ride a board made in Brazil or France, or Australia.  If it is shaped well, made with quality materials, by people who surf, I would support that company. I could get behind a company like that a lot easier than someone who shipped their shapes over seas to have them mass produced by factory workers.  That's not what surfing is about IMHO.  There are some companies doing it right.  Tim Stamps and Infinity are both made in CA and they appear to be doing very well.  Again the question is do you even care?

I look forward to your input.  Sorry if I came off like a idealistic hippy.   
Rick

[Dwight (DW)]

We've got two key issues here.

1) Resale value is higher for "standardized" models. The performance is known, reviewed, published, and repeatable. The custom guys that establish standardized models at least have a fighting chance.

2) Pop-outs can be made in the US and were during windsurfings heyday. Pro-Tech in Florida not only competed on price, but consistently produced boards lighter than Cobra could.

I've owned two very expensive custom SUPs and lost my ass dumping them second hand. If I can find a production model meeting my needs, I'm going to chose it first. I care more about it being a standard production model, than where it was built.

[PonoBill]

Since I generally ride a board until it is pretty much beaten to death, and don't take very good care of my toys. resale value is not an issue for me, but I understand why people see the advantage in production boards. I do care about "made in the USA", I care more about quality. I think you can get good quality with either Asian or US boards, but you have to watch what you are doing. The easiest way is to buy a big name board, and most of them are Asian-made.

I don't think any of the Asian boards are truly pop-outs, at least not in the sense that surfers used to mean.

[shiner]

I got an american custom made richmond downwind board and i dont even live in the USA.
At the moment the best boards come out of the USA and Australia.

[heave]

I live in Oregon and I only ride boards and sails that are made in Oregon, USA.
That just happens to be how it is for me right now and its not because I say it has to always be that way for me.  I think my paddle was made in Washington.

Seems like everyone has their own different reasons for choosing boards.  I've heard people say things like they only ride Hawaiian boards, or a molded production, or a particular construction/materials, sponsored and so on.


  
 

[beaglebuddy]

It matters to me and yes, it is about money.
However I am willing and do pay more for products made in the USA.
I only have one SUP board, it's made in Thailand, but I bought it used and it was my first board.
My next board will be a custom job made in the USA.
All this stuff made in China now is wrong on so many levels.

[corran]

We make our boards in China. We make them in China for a number of reasons, the first of which is NOT price. We make them in china because this is where there is a ready supply of Bamboo fiber and a ready supply of recycled polystyrene. It is ALSO cheaper, though this is changing rapidly.

We also sell boards all over the world, so with the exception of Canada East Coast and the NE USA, shipping cost and the carbon footprint of trucking a board from Montreal to California is the same as Shanghai to California, Australia, the UK, France and so on.

We did do a brief study, asking dealers and customers: would you pay 20% more if it was made in the USA (only applicable to our US Customers). The answer was an unequivocal NO. They would buy Made in the USA over Chinese made if it was the SAME price, but they would not pay more (a whopping 7% said yes they would). This question we asked 2 years ago. I doubt its changed. And it would only apply to our US customers as the rest of the world - its still not made in their country and they account for half our sales.

We make several plastic SUP in China and one in the USA and one in italy. We did this so we could offer faster service to our european customers with the Italian board, faster service to the USA and Caanda with the US made board and then the bulk we make in China. We still sell more of the Chinese made boards. That tells you something.

The bottom line, for us anyway, is that we can be more ecological making it in China (though there is a slow but developing recycling market coming into being in the USA and canada now) because this is where the source materials are, the Chinese factories are able to produce in the kinds of numbers we and others require, with high standards (I'm sorry to say it but the PRODUCTION boards made in china are generally equal, and in fact often better - I'm not talking custom boards here), and finally, for about 20% less than in N America. And 20% on a $1000 board is a lot.

Will we always make our boards in China? Well, every year it comes up and we do a feasibility study, and we end up staying there... but we do ask ourselves the question on a regular basis.

Corran

FYI - in the kayak industry, Jackson, Dagger, Wave Sport etc etc are all made in the USA, Prijon and eskimo in germany, pyranha and P&H in the UK and so on... kayaks take 1hr to make. Surfboards take 15 hrs. You can get 300 boards into a container. You get 50 kayaks. So the labour is nominal, and shipping is high per unit, and thus its the same price to make them in China as the USA. Boards are very different.

[beaglebuddy]

Nice rationalization but Chinese factories pollute unabated, they could care less about the environment compared to us and the electricity to run those factories comes primarily from burning coal and coal burning in China is primarily responsible for all the mercury in our oceans and fish.
For instance after verification by westerners, the Chinese will remove the scrubbers from smokestacks so the power plant can run more efficient.
Outsourcing of jobs destroys our economy.
You reap what you sow.

[corran]

Nice rationalization but Chinese factories pollute unabated, they could care less about the environment compared to us and the electricity to run those factories comes primarily from burning coal and coal burning in China is primarily responsible for all the mercury in our oceans and fish.
For instance after verification by westerners, the Chinese will remove the scrubbers from smokestacks so the power plant can run more efficient.
Outsourcing of jobs destroys our economy.
You reap what you sow.

Most electricity in the USA is also coal fueled.

The new environmental laws in China are very strickt. In fact far MORE so than wither the USA or Canada. OLD factories get "grandfathered in" - that means the laws do not apply so that they don;t ruin operating businesses. But, NEW factories built are subject to very strict laws. The factory where we make our boards was built on the site of an old printing factory. The old nasty building came down, this slick one went up... and the opening was 3 months late as they had to comply to all sorts of laws.

For example, in the USA, surfboard factories have ventilation that just spews the fiberglass dust right out the side of the building and into the local creek (ever been to the factories in Dana Point?). You can;t do this in China (in new factories). ALL ventilation units run into catch bins and the dust is transported to appropriate dump sites (better than spewing it out any old how).

Basically, your info about china is old... it USED to be that way.

In turn, someone in Germany could argue that boards made in the USA are not good for thier economy, or someone in the USA say that my boards made in Canada are not good... etc etc.No matter where you make your boards, only the locals benefit. So unless you are, and intend to remain a cottage business, its just not a rational way of looking at things. In Imagines case we sell to every continent. Only one country can be the place where they are made... the rest of our customers are buying something made elsewhere... regardless of where that is.

That said, another consideration is that the Chinese themselves are becoming more affluent. That means they're buying cel phones and computers and clothing all from US, European etc brands. These US etc companies are making money off this new huge market that 10 years ago they could not be considered, and the reason for that is that they are now working and making money that they were not before. US cars are sold here... European cell phones, and so on.

Economy is a global thing today. It's not local. That's a 1960's view of the world economy.  Sure, making boards in Dana Point for example does put LOCAL people to work... this IS true... but again, we'd have to remain a cottage industry for this to function because as soon as we sell a board outside of our area, its no longer locally made.

What happens to the USA when the Greek economy crashes is significant... and so on. Its good for the USA when chinese people are spending money and its bad for the usa when they are not, and vice versa.

As for mercury in the oceans, I hate to break it to you but the US and Europe were responsible for that long before Chinese industry showed up. Sure we NEED to encourage them to stop the bad things, encourage them to the good, but I might point out that if you're going to wave an environmental flag (which I agree with my the way) the FIRST START might be for the USA to sign the Kyoto accord... hummm? Oh, that's right, the Kyoto accord would be bad for US Industry. Tell yuo what... we won;t sign it but we'll point fingers at the Chinese anyway. Hows that sound.

Doh!

Anyway, I get your point. it IS valid, but it is also not the entire story. Its far more complicated than the simplistic paragraph you put down... environmentally, economically and so on.

Corran

[kwhilden]

When it comes to recycling, China is the only "First World" country and has the most advanced materials recycling technology in the world. In contrast, the USA is like a third-world country. It's sad, but we throw away an enormous amount of useful raw materials in our trash every day. That doesn't happen in China. Even worse, when someone actually takes the time and effort to recycle something, most of that raw material gets sent on a container to China anyway. So we give away our valuable raw materials for free to the Chinese (or sometimes pay them to take it away).

Corran is the only manufacturer who goes out of his way to use recycled foam in his boards. More than 90% of the environmental impact from polystyrene comes from the production of raw materials, so kudos to him for making the effort. He has sent me photos of the offcuts from his blanks being recycled into new blanks. That's commercially viable in China where recycling infrastructure is strong, but difficult in the USA. There are a few innovators in the USA also trying to do this, but it's difficult for them because the infrastructure doesn't exist.   

Environmental problems are a global issue, and the USA is responsible for the lion's share of many of them. It's easy to point fingers at China, which has a lot of obvious pollution. However it's not accurate to think the obvious pollution is all that matters.

[JC50]

I'm tired of people accusing me I don't care about the country I live in because I sometimes prefer to purchase things made elsewhere because they are BETTER. I purchase the best quality for the price. I'm sick of some of the crap USA manufactures and continues to arrogantly do so. As Corran stated, it is a global economy, that means stop believing the news-bites and actually research the ultimate economic value before calling foul play. Put yourself in the shoes of a surfboard manufacturer and honestly ask yourself how you would remain competitive. There is economic value to citizens of US when something is purchased that was manufactured elsewhere. You just have to follow the trail.

I have both production boards and local customs. Each have their strengths and weaknesses.

I also own a Ducati race motorcycle with an engine assembled by women. I doubt all of them race motorcycles, yet the bike is brilliantly engineered and has more passion & soul in one chainlink than some of the well known bikes built on our soil.

I'm not saying that all offshore practices are good, but not all are bad.

[Philn]

Nice rationalization but Chinese factories pollute unabated, they could care less about the environment compared to us and the electricity to run those factories comes primarily from burning coal and coal burning in China is primarily responsible for all the mercury in our oceans and fish.
For instance after verification by westerners, the Chinese will remove the scrubbers from smokestacks so the power plant can run more efficient.
Outsourcing of jobs destroys our economy.
You reap what you sow.

http://www.wetsand.com/story/17567/Which+Countries+Pollute+the+Most%3F/
USA produces more pollution than China yet they have a population 5 times greater than us.  If you want to see the real polluter, look in the mirror.

[Dwight (DW)]

to see the real polluter, look in the mirror.

Don't buy into that BS.

I work for a huge world wide engineering company building chemical and textile plants world wide. China is our biggest customer.

Clients in China make us delete the pollution control parts of our plants to save a few bucks, because they can get away with it. You won't see that done with our US projects.

Leave Beijing and visit the plant sites in cities unknown to westerners, and see what I've seen. It's shocking.

[Admin]

Minimum wage in China went up pretty sharply this year...up to about $130.00 a month in Beijing and Shanghai. 

Factories have had to raise wages to keep workers away from home and doing that type of work and some are now paying $250 to $300 a month. 

So, there are already companies bailing to even cheaper production locations where $50.00 a month is the norm.

[beaglebuddy]

Wow, coal accounts for about half of our electrical generation and in China about 70% but in the USA we have emission control devices, in China this is mostly unheard of.
Sure there a few "Potemkin village" show type power plants and factories to appease westerners guilt over allowing the earth to be raped by the Chinese, destroying our economies and our children's financial future to satisfy our demand for consumerism.
In most Chinese cities the air is thick with smog and coal fumes.
Chinese recycle because the recyclables have value, not because they are concerned about the environment, their slave labor is so cheap they can afford to pay people to process it and make money on the deal.
Overall we may make as much pollution but we are way more productive and have a higher standard of living, we do much more with a given amount of energy and waste much less of it, our GDP is more than triple the Chinese but our Co2 output is about the same.
As for the Chinese buying our goods, be reminded that the US has a huge trade imbalance with China a large part of the reason is because they have artificially pegged their currency to our dollar, not allowing their currency to become more valuable and make our exports more attractive. There is no free trade, there is a trade war going on in the world against US goods and only we don't know about it.
Cell phones are made in China and there are few consumer goods from the USA the average Chinese can afford, but if their currency was allowed to float correctly this would be a different situation.
NAFTA and globalism have destroyed our manufacturing base, wrecked our economy, resulted in more pollution worldwide and left us trillions in debt primarily to the Chinese who are not our allies.
If you want to make your products in China like everyone else because it's not financially viable in the USA considering your competition, fine, but to try to spin it into it being good for the environment and our economy is really a reach.