Troubled waters and easy steps.

[Chan]

Dear all , I am sorry but  I can no longer hold myself back from this posting , I believe that there is a time and a place to make a statement and that sometimes we missjudge the time ans place . I  think that in this case the mistake should be rectified .

It does not seem right to me that a forum administrator should take it upon themselves to try and enforce any type of rules or law outside of their own website, and lets face it that is what is happening here even though you may be  hiding behind the pretense that you afre doing a service on behalf of others  this web site was hugely instrumental in  helping establish the popularity of stand up-paddle boarding and so it should also absorb the responsibility of helping the sport along, and i applaud you for that achievement. However I  feel that discussion about this thread has been avoided because a lot of  people do not want to address the obvious flaws to this stand . A huge  portion of the stand up community is talking about this thread between themselves privately and in emails  and because it is a sensitive situation  or  perhaps because the forum has been ‘ cleansed’ or filtered it seems that Chan has the first and last word . I am confused as the nature of  this post , if the “Elite” surfer ‘s wanted  to make a statement why do you act as their mouthpiece ?  Can they not type ?  Is it because they are too scared to make a statement  themselves? Or is it because they never read this site ?- come on guys – Dave , Laird , Buzzy whoever ? Speak up please . I know of many “ Local “ ohana on maui  who are completely   stunned by this posting , can they no longer let their children go to Hookipa ? It amazes me that you would take such a stand .
 
I would like to know  Is it ok to surf  Hookipa if I have lived here for 20 years ? Or do I need to have been born here ? Would you or one of the 'elite' like to hold a class and grade us all on out  skills so as to decide who can go where. If you live near a certain break is it considered a local break ….?

Should we only allow  3 rd of 4th generation  Hawaiians to surf  wherever  they want ? If your skin is not dark enough should  you be banned from certain breaks   Should we not allow Afro americans  or  Jews at Hookipa ? Should the Berlin Wall still be in place ?

   Of course these questions are way too extreme but if they are asked  asked  the ovious flaws of this thread are exposed.  
It is self righteous , bigoted and elitist to even suggest that only certain groups of people are allowed anywhere and not the American or for that matter the Hawaiian  way
This 'stand' is so dangerous and so offbeat I truly feel it deserves an apology , and not just small paragraphs of self justification . Seriously when make a mistake own up to it ! Everyone is guilty of not thinking through things from time to time , and this has to be a prime example !

 But to hide behind the line “ We have been asked by certain  elite surfers is a ‘cop out’ – I would ask you to name them – or keep quite – I am asked to be a 'dick' everyday in my job but I refuse and so far it has stood me well – you may want to consider acting the same way , in order to avoid people accusing you of being elitist yourselves unless you are striving for that title , however it should be a title that is worn with pride and not saddled upon you with shame .

First off, Happy Thanksgiving.  

The response and participation to this group effort has been overwhelmingly positive.  After posting this, we were initially contacted by a small group of people that had concerns, but they uniformly had not read this thread directly, but rather had been misinformed about its content by the very group who has been causing the majority of these problems.  After speaking with us, Dave, and others, and reading this thread firsthand, they have offered their support and input.

As this fledgling sport grows, new issues and information arise.  Surf etiquette, surf culture, surf hierarchy and territorial surf conflict are areas of ongoing concern. Dave and others are doing their part to address these issues and ease tensions where possible.  We are honored to have been asked to report on this and hope to have an article completed soon.  We have interviewed Surfers, SUPers, ½ and ½ ers, lifeguards, a DLNR representative, Shapers, Hawaiians, Locals, and transplants.  The article will be inclusive, honest, and unbiased.  Our own opinions will not be represented.  If you feel your opinion is not (or will not be) covered, please provide your name and phone number and we will be happy to set up an interview.  The same, of course, applies to those whom you have stated have existing concerns.  Have them contact us, and we will be happy to speak with them.

[linter]

here, here, local.  meanwhile, i hope in chan's article the so-called elite surfers are quoted by name and are not afforded the shameful cloak of anonymity...

[1tuberider]

I thought we were talking about a public beach.

Who owns a public beach? 

Maybe if the conflicts stew for a while, people will figure it out.  How many school surfing contests contribute to the conflict? What happens when the wind kicks up and blows it out? Are there regulations for who can and can't.  I like the main rule which is

No windsurfing before 10.  Give the divers their time. 

I think the biggest problem is that people forgot to count and jump in the front of the line.  This has been the biggest problem in all lineups.  Maybe they should be banned first. 

So the next rule

Wave hogs will have to sit in the corner for an hour before they can have another wave.

Sup is a superior way to surf! Figure it out!

[Chan]

here, here, local.  meanwhile, i hope in chan's article the so-called elite surfers are quoted by name and are not afforded the shameful cloak of anonymity...

Hi Linter,

An anonymous forum users against anonymity movement?  I like that.  Akin to an anarchists committee meeting.

In this process, no one that is participating has asked to be anonymous. On the contrary, they want to have their voices heard and want their position to be on the record and public.  All those whose views are included in the article will be directly quoted by name.

Sincerely,

Chantalle and Randy Strome

[Chan]

I thought we were talking about a public beach.

Who owns a public beach?  

Maybe if the conflicts stew for a while, people will figure it out.  How many school surfing contests contribute to the conflict? What happens when the wind kicks up and blows it out? Are there regulations for who can and can't.  I like the main rule which is

No windsurfing before 10.  Give the divers their time.  

If you’re talking about at Ho’okipa, the DLNR regulation does not allow windsurfer’s in the water there if more than 10 surfers are out at any time.  This rule does not apply to SUP at this time.  County ordinance prohibits Surf, Kayak, and Windsurf schools at Ho’okipa.  

In our interviews there have been several firsthand accounts of windsurfing’s early history at Ho’okipa.  Soon after the then new sport’s arrival, and during the period of subsequent meetings, a terrible conflict developed, complete with violence, death threats, and hired personal protection. Eventually state regulations were imposed.  Ultimately, both sides were less than satisfied with the government imposed regulations and the tensions continue, twenty years later.  Many of those involved in this process were part of the first conflagration and are now involved precisely to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

[stoneaxe]

I can understand concerns about having someone telling you where and when you can go out...particularly on public lands/waters. I really hate the idea of localism.....even though I understand the reasons for it. What I don't understand is what seems to be animosity directed at anyone here that is simply opening it up for discusssion and trying to keep the peace. 

I don't have a dog in this fight....I'll never be good enough to surf Hookipa. Seems to me to be a reasonable thing though for there to be places for surfers that don't want to compete with SUPs for waves or worse be endangered by folks beyond their abilities. It is a tough question as to who is on that list of who can go though. Maybe the best thing the elite SUPers could do would be to set an example and not go there either. Aren't we always saying that we don't need the same space?

[supmaui]

*****Before anyone delete's or reports this post for deletion I ask that you read it twice and if it still is offensive then do as you must*****Just remember opinions are like a holes and everyone has one. Since this is an open forum here is mine.

Aloha All,

I have not commented on this thread or others similar because I really don't want to get into a pissing contest or try to debate things that will probably go nowhere for me but I feel compelled to post my opinion now because I keep hearing over and over that a few bad apples are causing the issues at Hookipa.

If it is a select few apples that are causing problems shouldn't we go directly to them as fellow SUPer's/friends and talk with them about the problems they are causing? Are they among the stand up zone family or are they non registered non believing non zoners ? I personally know about 6 guys non forum members that frequent Hookipa and if they are a problem I can chat with them or help set up a meeting if needed. No guarantees those knackas will listen. Is the problem etiquette, too many waves, running over people, etc.? I am still unclear about the problem but keep hearing that a video interview/report is coming out regarding the issue at Hookipa. No I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do. Maybe I am reading it wrong and there is a video/interview about etiquette, surf culture, rules etc. or something like that.

What about the next break that SUP’s start going to? DO we start saying that break is off limits too because someone on a SUP gave a Charlie horse to someone on a different vehicle? Where does the line get drawn and we let mother nature sort out who and what go where and when?  Forget mother nature and let the government grab control of our freedoom and start setting the rules. Is this where we want to head.

Are the SUP companies who are selling boards a factor in the problem? Do we put a yearly cap on SUP boards sold and put my Chinese cousins on furlough days? Do we close the door to new SUP companies because growth is bad?  Are the SUP companies responsible for our behavior in the lineup? What about the individual buyer? Is he/she needing a class? Where does the line get drawn and we say let mother nature sort out some of the issues.


We talk about SUP specific spots but I can tell you from first hand experience that will not work. A perfect example is a south shore spot that was supposed to be SUP friendly turned out to be a nightmare for my family. A person who had a run in with a bad apple SUPer earlier in a session took his anger out on my son (Bunching effect). This fiasco went all the way to my son’s relatives over on Molokai through the coconut wireless by accident and they were ready to board the next ferry to Maui. Cooler heads prevailed in the end. Another example was a north shore accepted SUPspot that usually has on good days 40 plus SUPer’s weaving back and forth. I was told specifically “This is spot X and not Hookipa so no rules just SUP”.

The reason I am even speaking on this thread is because I have a vested interest in this whole matter because parts of my ohana (relatives/extended family,friends, etc.) SUP there especially my son. My son who has progressed in his SUPing likes going to Hookipa this year because his friends go there and he see's his heroes’ there. He cannot go to outer reefs because it may be too dangerous for a kid, no lifeguards for safety,etc. What do I tell my son who SUP’s 99% of the time in the ocean? Some of his friends don't Stand up paddle but are always willing to take him or meet him at different beaches. Sometimes he doesn't have a choice what beach he ends up SUPing but as a kid looks no differently upon surfers, body boarders, etc. except that they are there to have fun. I am not saying he is exempted from anything but trying to show that maybe we should think like kids and have fun. I love watching kids ride their toys in the water. No probs and only fun.

A quick intermission story but this summer I had a conversation with a guy who is one of the most respected surfers on Maui about a particular break that was not a SUP friendly spot. No sooner than half hour later my son called to tell me he had SUPed this spot with his friends with no issues. We had a good laugh about that.

Now that Pandora’s box is open what do we do? Just like Jaws we cannot close it.

My only real thought on the whole matter is maybe we should spend 5 minutes getting to know each other in the lineup and then after that draw conclusions from actions and not the vehicle we ride in the ocean. The ocean is God’s country and we are only visitors sharing it. The ocean is our playground so let’s leave the world and our problems on the concrete.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND I AM NOT HERE TO DEBATE THE MERITS OF WHAT BEACHES ARE OPEN TO SUP OR CLOSED JUST WANTING TO SHARE MY THOUGHTS AS A PARENT OF A KID WHO SUP'S. I WOULD APPRECIATE IF ANYONE WANTS TO SAY SOMETHING NEGATIVE PLEASE PM ME AND SPEND 5 MINUTES GETTING TO KNOW ME.

Aloha

Byron

P.S.

Lastly I leave you with a comment I saw on Christian Fletcher’s Facebook page…….

At the end of the game the kings, queens, knights and pawns get put in the same box.

[Admin]

Hello Byron,

I won't delete your post, but I must say that I find it entirely disingenuous.

I say that, because you are in full knowledge that members of the group with whom you have been visiting the Ho'okipa area have been threatened with violence by their own admissions.  This escalated in one instance to where a member of your group felt it necessary to involve the police about threats that had been made.  It has additionally been stated to us in writing by those involved that this adversarial situation has become a reason for frequenting this already highly contentious area.

Chan was being quite diplomatic in not bringing up these highly sensitive and potentially embarrassing points, but the insincerity of your post blows me away.  

You guys are going to these spots, knowing how flammable they are, knowing that all of the above is going on, bringing kids into it, and then come here and involve us in your bizarre decisions by posting pictures of this on our site? All this while you are well aware that the very people that this was intended to irritate are Zone readers.  Your stance is that it is OK to involve us in this without disclosing the full situation, and without our consent?

We are not interested in being involved in Spite SUPing.  

You don't need a video to tell you that you shouldn't be going to breaks to intentionally piss off surfers.

[supmaui]

Admin I have never been involved with the police or anything like that at Hookipa or any break for the matter. I am not sure where that is coming from. I have not posted vids or pics since your guys thread about this break. This is done out of respect. Sorry that my post was taken wrong or whatever just trying to share and understand. You could have pmed me about my post. Once again I am sorry.

Aloha

Byron

[Chan]

I find it impossible to believe that.  Your friends have been very vocal about this.  It defies logic that they would tell and email this infromation to us and you haven't heard of it.  So that's your story, right? 

Now that this is public knowledge (and please confirm it), I am sure you have a far better understanding of our concerns and involvement.  I don't mind being an informed pawn, but I don't appreciate being made the ignorant court jester. 

[supmaui]

Yes I just got off the phone with mutual friend of ours and I asked him about police. I understand more about the police thing now. Please pm if you want info about him. Not trying to get personal because life is too short.

Aloha

B

[gotwaves?]

Just an innocent bystander here but it sounds as if there's A LOT of specific people and key information not mentioned in this thread. How about getting key individuals/reps from all concerning parties and Ho'oponopono this thing out? It doesn't  seem as if there are random people SUP'n Ho'okipa on a daily basis, just the same people from different factions. it shouldn't be that difficult to discern the groups and ask for representatives to meet and discuss how to harmonize the situation. seems the way it's headed right now it's going to be a mostly one-sided decision.

p.s. and I think a private Ho'oponopono and then let the public know the outcome. unless all parties are willing to let ALL information, sensitive or not, be public here on this forum.

in the end, WE ARE ALL ONE.

[Sam Pa'e]

Just an innocent bystander here but it sounds as if there's A LOT of specific people and key information not mentioned in this thread. How about getting key individuals/reps from all concerning parties and Ho'oponopono this thing out? It doesn't  seem as if there are random people SUP'n Ho'okipa on a daily basis, just the same people from different factions. it shouldn't be that difficult to discern the groups and ask for representatives to meet and discuss how to harmonize the situation. seems the way it's headed right now it's going to be a mostly one-sided decision.

p.s. and I think a private Ho'oponopono and then let the public know the outcome. unless all parties are willing to let ALL information, sensitive or not, be public here on this forum.

in the end, WE ARE ALL ONE.

WELL  SAID........................AND AMEN TO THAT!!!!

[Local]

An anonymous forum users against anonymity movement?  I like that.  Akin to an anarchists committee meeting.

How about another mataphor "the lunatics are running the assylum"

[petemc]

Been observing this forum for quite some time.

Glad I live in Oz guys and not in Hawaii.  Sounds like a guy like me wouldn't have a chance of scoring a wave without knowing a local. 

You guys really need to work it out as from my perspective "Aloha" doesn't seem to exist what with 'localism, local justice, beatings and theft' seeming to be par for the course.  As I said, my perspective, but I could be wrong.

It's bad enough as SUPers we have to to deal with the negativity from shortboarders and longboarders.  No one group should be setting themselves up as superior or elitist, hiding behind anonominity or making aspersions without providing all the facts.

Sorry guys, I might not live there but reading this and other posts certainly doesn't endear Hawaii as a travel destination.
Then again that's your gain as it's one less person trying to score at one of your breaks.

Not meaning to be offensive, just calling it as I see it.

Cheers...Pete