Author Topic: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently  (Read 5354 times)

Beasho

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Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« on: January 19, 2024, 11:08:13 AM »
When wetting out fiber with Epoxy Resin there is an ideal ratio of
    • 60% by weight fiber
    • 40% by weight of resin

to achieve maximum strength to weight in a hardened matrix when dry using a Vacuum bag.

I have been able to achieve this ratio with Carbon.  Wetting out the carbon on a table, using more Resin than necessary ~ 120% the weight of the fiber, and then vacuum bagging.  The end result comes out very close to 60% fiber / 40% resin. 

When I am wetting out the S2-Glass I am getting more like 45% by weight Fiber and 55% by weight Resin. 

I am wetting out on a table, with plastic.  It seems like the S Glass doesn't wet out as easily, sucks up more resin, but maybe just takes more time to spread.  Then the Vacuum is NOT taking out all the expected Excess resin.

Any Advice Appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2024, 11:12:05 AM by Beasho »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2024, 12:40:58 PM »
An old master windsurf builder once told me, to not think of vacuum bagging as removing excess resin.

The wet out table is where you get the resin ratio right and light weight results.

Guys who pour buckets of resin on the board and think vacuum bagging will remove all the excess resin, will never reach their potential.

So why bag? To achieve a good bond with less resin.

Every material (carbon biax, carbon warp, S, E, Innegra) takes resin different and leaves a different amount behind on the table when you roll it up for transfer. It takes feel and experience to dial in it.




Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2024, 02:28:00 PM »
DW:

1) What ratios do you expect?

2) Do you use heat to decrease the viscosity of the resin for wetting?

From here:
https://entropyresins.com/how-tos/vacuum-bagging/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=Entropy%20Brand%20-%20TM&utm_content=134931312677&utm_term&hsa_acc=4776136476&hsa_cam=11087231982&hsa_grp=134931312677&hsa_ad=589832087716&hsa_src=s&hsa_tgt=aud-924956566053%3Adsa-820650217362&hsa_kw&hsa_mt&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIs7iJi8XM_AIVMjWtBh2MaAzKEAAYASAAEgLeTvD_BwE

"The fibers in a laminate contribute to its strength more than the epoxy. To achieve the greatest strength with the lowest weight, take steps to reduce the ratio of epoxy to structural fabric (up to a point, of course). A typical wet lay-up, without vacuum bagging, is limited to about a 50:50 fiber-to-epoxy ratio. Vacuum bagging compacts the laminate so fibers are thoroughly wet out for a fiber-to-epoxy ratio as high as 65:35. Fiber-to-epoxy ratio is affected by:

  • Vacuum pressure
  • Epoxy viscosity
  • Epoxy cure time (time under vacuum, before gelation)
  • Perforated film pattern and hole size



Dwight (DW)

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2024, 02:40:27 PM »
I donít calculate resin weights anymore. I tried, but found it wasnít worth my time.

When you roll the cloth onto the roller, it does a good job of leaving excess resin behind on the table.

I laminate at 78-80 degrees. In Winter, I turn the shop heater up to that amount. Everything works better at 78-80 degrees. In summer the AC is set to 78-80.




Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2024, 03:23:01 AM »
When you roll the cloth onto the roller, it does a good job of leaving excess resin behind on the table.

What does this mean exactly? 

I have been struggling to find a good plastic to serve as a base layer for the lamination phase.  Too thick (4 mil) and any crinkles in the plastic bugger up the smoothness (see the picture above for the thick stuff).  Too thin, like automotive painting plastic, and the whispy nature of the plastic allows it to float around, flip over and get in the way.

I did use this Wet-Peg sandwich approach with thicker 6 oz carbon to great effect, but the S-Glass is more troublesome.  Last night I did a 1/2 lamination of the bottom of my 10' Skunk Works foil board and it took 3 hours from first batch mix until I got the board in the vacuum bag.  Thank G-d I was using slow cure, and split up the original 200 gram batch into smaller cups. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06-0Vxs_9nY
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 03:25:51 AM by Beasho »

jpeter

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2024, 05:04:34 AM »
I only vac bagged one windsurfer back when I was making them for myself.   I tried a wet lamination with all layers in one shot. (bot flip top flip bot flip top)  I didn't get the extraction I was looking for, but I felt it was an epoxy curing early issue.  If I was doing it again I would use a thin epoxy with super long working time and a heater to cure. 

I made an avalanche shovel for backcountry use shortly after the windsurfer.  I vac bagged the blade against a steel shovel to get a shape match.  The vac pump died right when I turned it on and I ended up using a house vac cleaner.  Surprisingly it worked.  Use that shovel to this day.

  My brother was making carbon fiber bike frames at the time.  I know he had found a thinner epoxy that used a heat cure.  I had been using a basic system3 boatbuilding epoxy for the windsurfers.  I think the shovel was done using the thin stuff, which was $$$. 

Wet peg video was interesting,  don't see how it would work for the main surfboard lamination, but maybe for adding layers in the feet area.

We chatted and I saw one of your home made boards this summer at MTK, you were parked next to me. 
Jay

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2024, 05:08:48 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjg626r7RS8

I do everything the Nelson Factory way.

The only improvements over their way Iím doingÖ

Black plastic gives a better wet out visual than clear plastic. Also gray plastic works better too. I donít use any clear.

My table is designed to staple the plastic sheets tight over the 4 ft wide ends. End 2x4 gets replaced once a year. It ends up with too many staples in it eventually. This is much faster in production than tape.

Roller gets replaced once a year. It gets too heavy eventually.

jpeter

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2024, 07:11:46 AM »
Does Nelson build for any major brands, or just customs ?  Great videos.  I wish I had these resources 30 years ago.  Was just learning by mistakes.  Jay

Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2024, 08:56:38 AM »
I do everything the Nelson Factory way.

The only improvements over their way Iím doingÖ

Black plastic gives a better wet out visual than clear plastic. Also gray plastic works better too. I donít use any clear.

My table is designed to staple the plastic sheets tight over the 4 ft wide ends. End 2x4 gets replaced once a year. It ends up with too many staples in it eventually. This is much faster in production than tape.

Roller gets replaced once a year. It gets too heavy eventually.

Well you have to include Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDnRk31yW-o

Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2024, 09:07:55 AM »
Wet peg video was interesting,  don't see how it would work for the main surfboard lamination, but maybe for adding layers in the feet area.

Good to catch up again.  Yes that board is still going 'strong'.

Meanwhile, when I am making my boards I tend to do them in a quilt like fashion.  Meaning 1 or a couple parts at a time.  The Nelson strategy is interesting because he wets out all pieces in one shot. 

Here is how I applied the CARBON deck patch on my Bumblebee.  This was the 3rd layer on top of 2 Tri-Axial layers below.  I would add the nose and tail patches later.  I wet the carbon out on Wax paper (I would rather use plastic).  The translucent nature was helpful to get the purest wet-out ratio and see dry spots from below.  I then used my own roller, but underneath the wax paper so no accumulation of resin.  I cut the material near to size and then trim the edges . . . 

https://youtu.be/-loa8tuCuSY
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 09:14:51 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2024, 10:03:24 AM »
Because I took so much time last night (and almost cooked my resin taking my time to wet it all out) the ratios came out very good.  Roughly within 2% of expectations (granted I cut off a little bit of wetted material).

The bottom is done, covered with S Glass and Carbon.  Top deck patches on the nose and tail remain.

jpeter

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2024, 02:30:13 PM »
Great time lapse video,  and you are the best dressed Glasser out there ! 
 
I have not made a board in years, but since the Sealion 86 and 83 is no longer made, I might end up making a replacement.
Jay

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2024, 02:34:03 PM »
Does Nelson build for any major brands, or just customs ?  Great videos.  I wish I had these resources 30 years ago.  Was just learning by mistakes.  Jay

They build for Hawaiian based brands. Youíll sometimes hear about shaper XXX using them.

PonoBill

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2024, 09:35:27 AM »
More specifically, Maui-based brands. The shop is in the old cannery building on W. Kuiaha street, about two miles from my house. This post makes me realize I haven't been there this year, and I need to go wander around and spectate--it's better than going to the aquarium. The cannery is a wonderland of innovative craftsmen. And then there's Mark Raaphorst's JungleWRX in a gulch behind his house, which is even closer and, in some ways, even cooler, though the hike down the muddy hill is treacherous, and the mosquitos do their best to drain me completely. Mark has his own CNC machine now, which he keeps adding interesting bits to. By this point, he could have had a Ferrari or a CNC machine.

I forget the glasser's name at Nelson (Tiger, Spider? Something like that) but he's a fucking magician. Astonishing to watch. And they have lots of nice toys in the shop, including a big CNC machine. They do custom work for any knucklehead that walks through the door--including me. They glassed a SUP surfboard for me that Dave Kalama shaped as a favor about ten years ago. It's a bit hefty, but it will still be here when I'm long gone.

Dave Daum's shop in SoCal is equally fascinating.

More to the point of the thread, I use rolled, not folded plastic, stretch it tightly on a steel table, and hold it flat with magnets, tape, and some long pieces of 3/8" X 2" steel bar stock. I fiddle much too long with it to get it flat because, yeah, wrinkles screw up the process. I get it tight and then let it sit for a night with a piece of plywood on it. Clearly, I'm not doing anything like production. For fiberglass, I wet it out and then squeegee the shit out of it until it looks almost dry. Then bag it. I think of bagging as a way to get glass and carbon to consolidate nicely that would be too dry for a conventional wet layup.

I'm writing this like I just did this yesterday, but it's been a few years since I've done anything complex with composite. My steel table currently has seven 3D printers on it, and I've never built a board. I did a lot of motorsport stuff, and I don't do that anymore.

Incidentally, I think your glass work would go much better if you wore a tie. A bow tie will stay out of the way.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 10:04:34 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Wetting out S-Glass Efficiently
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2024, 07:27:36 AM »
An old master windsurf builder once told me, to not think of vacuum bagging as removing excess resin.

The wet out table is where you get the resin ratio right and light weight results.

Guys who pour buckets of resin on the board and think vacuum bagging will remove all the excess resin, will never reach their potential.


. . . I use rolled, not folded plastic, stretch it tightly . . . . wrinkles screw up the process. . . . .

For fiberglass, I wet it out and then squeegee the shit out of it until it looks almost dry.

Then bag it. I think of bagging as a way to get glass and carbon to consolidate nicely that would be too dry for a conventional wet layup.

Thanks for these!  They Improved my results immediately. 

One thing that helped was adding pigment to the epoxy.  When its clear it is hard to see where it has saturated the fiber.  I am going for an orange finish (likely spray paint), so adding tint as a base to the fibers both glass and kevlar.  My board building amigos add black to add to the S Glass for a similar reason, and to see where they may be sanding too deep over EPS foam. 

I am going for LIGHT in the ends with the 2.2 oz Kevlar.  My 3.7 oz S-Glass Tail came in 32% over forecast, but my last 2 laminations have been nearly SPOT on.  One more panel to go.  Should come in ~ 13.25 lbs.  Add a bit more for paint, then trim but 13.5 lbs is within sight.

This is going to be pretty light for a 153 Liter, 10 foot x 23" board.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 07:48:32 AM by Beasho »

 


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